Would You Attend A Wedding For A SSM?

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

We actually did discuss this (just a little).  His son is still a member.  My friend does not agree with the new policy at all, but knows this marriage could mean excommunication.  He didn't say whether he's asked his son about it, but just told me that they'd deal with that if it happens.  

He's just very happy that his son is committing to his partner and making their union a marriage (they've been living together for a few years).

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I can appreciate the father's feelings, but if they have been living together for a few years, how does getting "married" change anything? Latter-day Saints living with a partner outside of marriage commit serious sin. Unless we have jettisoned that standard, of course.

[Scott Lloyd]

8 minutes ago, Rock_N_Roll said:

Shiver!  That's cold man, that's cold. 

Maybe. 

But refusal on principle to attend a wedding does not necessarily imply that one ceases to love the individual -- or refuses to be supportive in non-objectionable ways. 

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If you object to the behavior, why would you take part in a celebration of it, thus implying endorsement, consent or, at the very least, acquiescence?

Speaking only for myself, it would be for the love of the person involved. 

Much like those people on my mission who believed that joining the LDS church was akin to choosing Satan, but still came to their children's baptism. 

[ALarson]

5 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I can appreciate the father's feelings, but if they have been living together for a few years, how does getting "married" change anything? Latter-day Saints living with a partner outside of marriage commit serious sin. Unless we have jettisoned that standard, of course.

My friend is happy that they have decided to be fully committed to each other.  They now plan on adopting children too and they would not have done that while living together.  

Hey, it's complicated with the church.  My friend mentioned how it would be better in the eyes of church leaders if his son just continued living with his partner rather than making it a legal, committed union.  I get that.  He does not want his son to face excommunication.

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Edited March 16, 2016 by ALarson

[The Nehor]

7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If you object to the behavior, why would you take part in a celebration of it, thus implying endorsement, consent or, at the very least, acquiescence?

Because your not being there may inflict more pain than your standing for principles mitigates.

[Bernard Gui]

9 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Maybe. 

But refusal on principle to attend a wedding does not necessarily imply that one ceases to love the individual -- or refuses to be supportive in non-objectionable ways. 

Precisely. There is no obligation to honor a wedding invitation. Since I do not recognize ssmarriages, I would not be comfortable being there and would not attend. Perhaps there would be other ways to show support, but I'm not sure what I would be supporting.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

Because your not being there may inflict more pain than your standing for principles mitigates.

Not standing for principle carries its own potential damage. 

[The Nehor]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

Not standing for principle carries its own potential damage. 

True, I would have to weigh the two.

[Scott Lloyd]

6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Speaking only for myself, it would be for the love of the person involved. 

Much like those people on my mission who believed that joining the LDS church was akin to choosing Satan, but still came to their children's baptism. 

Which is why I, if faced with the situation, would do everything humanly possible to show love to the loved one in a manner that did not violate my conscience. 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Attendees at a wedding are traditionally construed as witnesses and celebrants of the event.

I hear what you are saying, but feel that "tradition" can too often get in the way of what is more important.  Traditionally, hanging out with prostitutes and drunkards was seen as condoning bad behavior and life-styles, Jesus always put the individual above traditional ideas.  I am not saying that Jesus would have attended a gay wedding given the chance, I am only saying that we should not allow tradition to get in the way of what is important.

We can go to a wedding for whatever reason we want, I don't particularly care why others think I am there.  For me, going to a wedding is not always a statement of how I feel about the matrimony, but is a statement of how I feel about the individual/s getting married.  If I was to attend a gay wedding, a gay friend would know my position and why I am attending, and that is all that matters to me.  My relationships are more important to me than my public image and traditional ideas. 

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

The grandson, still angry, left and did not return.

To me, that is unfortunate.  

I like the good, better, best talk.  If I had the opportunity to A) make a strong statement about my principles by not allowing a stoned kid into my home (good - I guess), or B) Recognize that this grandson is running from hurt, hiding from pain, or lost in insecurity and peer-pressure, I would embrace my grandson in his dark moment and say, "come in, sober up, and let's talk..."  

The strongest statements that we can make about our principles can only be heard through listening ears, if you catch my drift. 

 

[Mars]

yeah i'd probably go.

most people know where i stand.  refusing to attend would only cause further damage to the relationship.

[USU78]

39 minutes ago, smac97 said:

That's a tough question.  I think probably not, though I'll wait to get to that bridge before definitively deciding whether or not to cross it.

Thanks,

-Smac

I would not attend either.  The spectacular failure of a human organism on so fundamental an issue is nothing to celebrate.

[ALarson]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

I hear what you are saying, but feel that "tradition" can too often get in the way of what is more important.  Traditionally, hanging out with prostitutes and drunkards was seen as condoning bad behavior and life-styles, Jesus always put the individual above traditional ideas.  I am not saying that Jesus would have attended a gay wedding given the chance, I am only saying that we should not allow tradition to get in the way of what is important.

We can go to a wedding for whatever reason we want, I don't particularly care why others think I am there.  For me, going to a wedding is not always a statement of how I feel about the matrimony, but is a statement of how I feel about the individual/s getting married.  If I was to attend a gay wedding, a gay friend would know my position and why I am attending, and that is all that matters to me.  My relationships are more important to me than my public image and traditional ideas. 

I love this.  Great answer and insight.

I think there would be a kind and loving way to decline and also a judgmental, harsh way to decline.  I've seen both here on this thread so far.

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, pogi said:

Traditionally, hanging out with prostitutes and drunkards was seen as condoning bad behavior and life-styles, Jesus always put the individual above traditional ideas.

Christ may love the sinner but he never tolerated the sin.
He may love every homosexual on the planet, but he would never "support them" in their relationships nor give any sign of support.
He would tell them to go and sin no more.

[The Nehor]

4 minutes ago, USU78 said:

I would not attend either.  The spectacular failure of a human organism on so fundamental an issue is nothing to celebrate.

Part of me would love to echo that sentiment but judging others for not reproducing means I get judged by the same standard in which case I am sooooo damned.

[USU78]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

Part of me would love to echo that sentiment but judging others for not reproducing means I get judged by the same standard in which case I am sooooo damned.

You misunderstand.  I'm mourning the choices whereby the principal participants cut themselves off with their own right hands.

I have no reason to apologize for a judgment I myself do not make, but recognize Somebody Else has made, Somebody far above my pay grade.

[ALarson]

4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Christ may love the sinner but he never tolerated the sin.
He may love every homosexual on the planet, but he would never "support them" in their relationships nor give any sign of support.

You don't know that.  You believe this, but you cannot know whether or not Christ would attend the wedding.

[JLHPROF]

4 minutes ago, ALarson said:

You don't know that.  You believe this, but you cannot know whether or not Christ would attend the wedding.

Based on the recorded actions of his life is the only thing any of us know about Christ.
And based on that, Christ would not attend the wedding, no matter how much he loved the participants.

But you are correct, if the scriptures are incorrect in their description of Christ, then I suppose our knowledge of him could be wrong.

[BlueDreams]

17 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If you object to the behavior, why would you take part in a celebration of it, thus implying endorsement, consent or, at the very least, acquiescence?

Generally love and care for the individual as outweighing theological differences.

Personally, it's not even a question. I'd attend...and it's not too hypothetical. I would attend if/whenever my cousin got married. She already knows my views, I don't see the point of rehashing it out over something as precious to her as her wedding.  To me, comparisons to unhealthy or dangerous behaviors are not an accurate comparison. It's more like attending midnight Mass, or Hare Krishna temple's festival of colors/services, or all the other random things I participated in without necessarily agreeing 100% with or think doesn't have eternal staying power or was wrong but isn't necessarily something detrimental to their immediate health, safety, and functionality.

My witness/celebrating would probably be different too. To me it wouldn't mean that I was embracing SSM as an eternal principle or correct by my faith. I would be witnessing that I recognize this as a pertinent individual in my friends/family's life and that I can welcome them into my family/life and have the big, important things be met with support even when we disagree. I would hope they would show the same love and respect to me when I invite them to events they saw differently with or may disagree or never want personally for their own life.  

 

With luv,

BD 

[CA Steve]

So for those for which attending a SSM is seen as an endorsement of unacceptable behavior, would you also not attend a court session in which your son or daughter was being tried for a crime which you knew they committed?

If a child of mine were being tried for a crime I would be in the courtroom.

 

 

[Scott Lloyd]

2 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

So for those for which attending a SSM is seen as an endorsement of unacceptable behavior, would you also not attend a court session in which your son or daughter was being tried for a crime which you knew they committed?

If a child of mine were being tried for a crime I would be in the courtroom.

 

 

Hardly the same. Hardly the same at all.

 

[Boanerges]

42 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If you object to the behavior, why would you take part in a celebration of it, thus implying endorsement, consent or, at the very least, acquiescence?

First off, I don't necessarily object to the behavior. Their sins are between them and God just as mine are between me and God. I don't want them doing it in my living room, but what they do in their own home is their business - just like all my neighbors (all non-members) who commit what I might view as sins in their own homes.

So isn't just being friends with them implying endorsement, consent or acquiescence? I know one married gay couple personally. One of them grew up in my ward, I was his young mens president, our families are close. His partner is not a member of the church. His family are good, strong members, dad was a (my) bishop, SP counselor, etc. This kid (now in his 30s) is the same kid I knew and loved as his YMP. He served a mission, went to BYU, and has a great career. He lived with his partner several years before SSM was legalized (which here in the more liberal East was a few years ago). He hasn't been to church in over a decade (I don't blame him, although his family and others do invite him) but he does come to the occasional activity and his partner usually does accompany him. He's a nice guy, also a professional. I was not invited to his wedding (his family wasn't, either, it was private), but is his family not endorsing, consenting or acquiescing to his behavior by having him and his partner at family functions? Are we as a ward doing so when he comes to the Christmas party? Am I doing so because I talk to him when I see him? I may not like his sin, but that can be said of almost everybody I know, including my non-member family.

He and his mate did not change when he got married - they live in the same house and presumably do the same things they did before. I endorse, consent, or acquiesce no more or less than I ever have.

[pogi]

18 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Christ may love the sinner but he never tolerated the sin.
He may love every homosexual on the planet, but he would never "support them" in their relationships nor give any sign of support.
He would tell them to go and sin no more.

To use the same passage of scripture that you reference, to me not attending a dear friend/family members wedding because he/she is gay is akin to throwing stones, or at least can be perceived that way.  When it comes to perceptions, I am more concerned about my friend/family members perception of my feelings towards them than about the perception of other people who think I am attending for the wrong reasons. 

Again, I can attend a wedding for whatever reason I want.  I do not have to attend in "support" of their marriage, I can attend in support of my relationship with that individual.  

If we want to open ears and make statements, we have to stop throwing stones.  

[USU78]

3 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

So for those for which attending a SSM is seen as an endorsement of unacceptable behavior, would you also not attend a court session in which your son or daughter was being tried for a crime which you knew they committed?

If a child of mine were being tried for a crime I would be in the courtroom.

In what meaningful way is being tried for a crime a celebration of the crime?

[smac97]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I hear what you are saying, but feel that "tradition" can too often get in the way of what is more important.  Traditionally, hanging out with prostitutes and drunkards was seen as condoning bad behavior and life-styles, Jesus always put the individual above traditional ideas.  I am not saying that Jesus would have attended a gay wedding given the chance, I am only saying that we should not allow tradition to get in the way of what is important.

I guess I see your point, at least in theory.  It so happens, though, that my personal perspective coincides with "tradition."  In attending a wedding I am witnessing and celebrating and endorsing the event.  That is my purpose in attending, and that is why I would not attend a same-sex wedding.

Frankly, I have a hard time conceptualizing an attendee at a wedding attending for some reason that is exclusive of supporting or endorsing or celebrating the marriage.  Celebrating the union is the whole point of the event.  I would likewise not attend a "Take Your First Marijuana Toke" party, even if it was being hosted by a friend about whom I care.  Affection for the friend notwithstanding, the central point and purpose of such a party is to celebrate the ingestion of an illicit, mind-altering substance.  I can maintain a relationship with my friend without capitulating on my own moral code.  And if my friend were to condition our friendship on my attendance at such a party (and the attendant violation of my moral code), then I'm not sure the friendship would be worth keeping.

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We can go to a wedding for whatever reason we want, I don't particularly care why others think I am there.  

Reasonable minds can disagree about that, I suppose.  For me, disregarding the significance of attendance at some kinds of events, and discounting the significance of impressions arising from my attendance at such events, would be naive.  I would never attend a gay pride parade, even if I had motives other than expressing support for "gay pride."  My attendance alone would give the impression that I support the point and purpose of the parade.  Likewise, I would not attend a party where I knew drugs would be in use.  I would not attend a rally of a political group with whom I had strong moral disagreement.  I would not attend an event sponsored by the Westboro Baptist Church.  I would not attend an event sponsored by anarchists, or communists, or militant, or racist, groups.

A person who marches in a pro-abortion parade may say that "I participated in this parade not because I support abortion, but because I support my friend who organized the parade."  While that may be true, the reality is that the person has, by participating in the parade, lent himself to the advocacy of abortion.  He has advanced that cause.  For me, saying something like "I don't particularly care why others think I was there" doesn't really change that reality.

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For me, going to a wedding is not always a statement of how I feel about the matrimony, but is a statement of how I feel about the individual/s getting married.  

Reasonable minds can disagree about that, I suppose.  For me, I'd have a hard time explaining to my children (or anyone else, for that matter) that A) I attended a same-sex wedding, B) I appear in photographs and videos posted on social media that overtly celebrate the same-sex marriage, but C) I don't agree with same-sex marriage.

Others will draw different lines as they deem fit in terms of loving the individuals while not endorsing (or appearing to endorse) behavior of those individuals which are problematic. 

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If I was to attend a gay wedding, a gay friend would know my position and why I am attending, and that is all that matters to me.  My relationships are more important to me than my public image and traditional ideas. 

Then perhaps we don't really disagree.  If I was to not attend a gay wedding, my gay friend would also know my position and why I am not attending.  I would do all that I can to preserve my relationship with the friend, which is indeed important.  But I would also want to adhere to my personal moral code, and I would hope that my gay friend would not condition friendship on violating that code.  So not attending the wedding would allow me to preserve that relationship without giving false/misleading impressions to others.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited March 16, 2016 by smac97