ALarson Posted March 16, 2016 Author Posted March 16, 2016 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Hardly the same. Hardly the same at all. Maybe a better example would be if your son or daughter were having a child out of wedlock (living together rather than married), would you attend the birth or go to the hospital to see the baby? Would you attend a baby shower for them? Edited March 16, 2016 by ALarson 1
Rain Posted March 16, 2016 Posted March 16, 2016 (edited) I would have to decide on an individual basis. Even if it were my own child it would be an individual choice based on who they are. If I came it would be as if I came knowing the future spouse was abusive, a partier or a cheater. While someone who is gay may be a really great person, I believe that living in this kind of relationship is ultimately harmful to the spirit. So I could not come and celebrate and I would not be thrilled, but I would come to keep the doors open between the loved one and myself open in case they needed my support later. And interestingly that is precisely what has been needed the past few years and especially the past few days with someone I love. Edited March 16, 2016 by Rain 1
smac97 Posted March 16, 2016 Posted March 16, 2016 50 minutes ago, ALarson said: I love this. Great answer and insight. I think there would be a kind and loving way to decline and also a judgmental, harsh way to decline. I've seen both here on this thread so far. I haven't seen any "harsh" declinations. Thanks, -Smac 3
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 16, 2016 Posted March 16, 2016 My cousin is an exmormon lesbian who had a lesbian marriage a year ago and was hurt none of her relatives outside her immediate family showed up, because people on my side of the family were against gay marriage strongly.
smac97 Posted March 16, 2016 Posted March 16, 2016 3 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: My cousin is an exmormon lesbian who had a lesbian marriage a year ago and was hurt none of her relatives outside her immediate family showed up, because people on my side of the family were against gay marriage strongly. This seems to exemplify the unreasonableness of insisting that family members violate their moral codes, that they go against their religious beliefs. I sure hope we will not now see a raft of excuses like "But attending a same-sex wedding doesn't violate a moral code!" That's far too subjective a thing about which anyone can make such a declaration. Thanks, -Smac 1
pogi Posted March 16, 2016 Posted March 16, 2016 (edited) 37 minutes ago, smac97 said: For me, disregarding the significance of attendance at some kinds of events, and discounting the significance of impressions arising from my attendance at such events, would be naive. I respect your personal perception of significance, but the significance of attendance is what you make of it, it is not for others to decide for you. I may be a bit naive, but not more than Christ who frequently discounted the significance of impressions of others. He did what he felt was right, without regard to the consequences and perceptions of others. He knew that the "believers" would probably persecute him for not avoiding "even the appearance of evil", while the sinners would turn to him. I personally feel that the only people who would have negative impressions of me for attending such an event would be the stone-throwing believers. However, my attendance would leave impressions from the other side that would speak worlds of good about my Christian beliefs, practices, and principles. Edited March 16, 2016 by pogi 2
Gray Posted March 16, 2016 Posted March 16, 2016 Not a huge fan of weddings, but I'd attend a wedding of anyone I cared about, gay or straight.
USU78 Posted March 16, 2016 Posted March 16, 2016 7 minutes ago, pogi said: The significance of attendance is what you make of it, it is not for others to decide for you. I may be a bit naive, but not more than Christ who frequently discounted the significance of impressions of others. He did what he felt was right, without regard to the consequences. He knew that the "believers" would probably persecute him, while the sinners would turn to him. I personally feel that the only people who would have negative impressions of me for attending such an event would be the stone-throwing believers. However, my attendance would leave impressions from the other side that would speak worlds of good about my Christian beliefs, practices, and principles. And Maccabees' compulsory attendance at the sacrifice of swine on the altar of the Temple was of no consequence: they were just there as part of their civic duty; the actual religious ceremony didn't affect them in any way.
BlueDreams Posted March 16, 2016 Posted March 16, 2016 35 minutes ago, ALarson said: Maybe a better example would be if your son or daughter were having a child out of wedlock (living together rather than married), would you attend the birth or go to the hospital to see the baby? Would you attend a baby shower for them? To me, a better parallel would be the scripture in Moroni 8 that says baptism of little children is solemn mockery unto the Lord and asking whether one would attend a Catholic baptism of someone's infant if invited to attend. With luv, BD 4
Mars Posted March 16, 2016 Posted March 16, 2016 4 minutes ago, USU78 said: And Maccabees' compulsory attendance at the sacrifice of swine on the altar of the Temple was of no consequence: they were just there as part of their civic duty; the actual religious ceremony didn't affect them in any way. but they're not getting married in our Temple. 1
pogi Posted March 16, 2016 Posted March 16, 2016 (edited) 8 minutes ago, USU78 said: And Maccabees' compulsory attendance at the sacrifice of swine on the altar of the Temple was of no consequence: they were just there as part of their civic duty; the actual religious ceremony didn't affect them in any way. I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about attending the gay marriage of a friend or family member. Edited March 16, 2016 by pogi 1
smac97 Posted March 16, 2016 Posted March 16, 2016 (edited) 29 minutes ago, pogi said: The significance of attendance is what you make of it, it is not for others to decide for you. With respect, I think that is naive. If I march in a NARAL-funded pro-abortion parade, I can't say that "the significance of my marching in a pro-abortion parade is what I make of it, it is not for others to decide for me." The impression I give to others by marching in a pro-abortion parade is . . . that I support NARAL and am pro-abortion. The impression I give to others will be based on my conduct, and it is for them to decide, not for me to decide for them. Quote I may be a bit naive, but not more than Christ who frequently discounted the significance of impressions of others. I see your point. Christ dining with sinners does not equate to an endorsement of their sins. I agree with that. But attending a wedding does, I think, equate to such an endorsement. Christ justified His dining with sinners by saying "They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick." I have always taken this to mean that Christ was dining with sinners not because He was joining with them and celebrating their sins. Rather, He dined with them in order to help them realize that they are loved despite their sins, and that repentance is possible. I do not see how attendance at a same-sex wedding is reconcilable with the example Christ set here. Quote He did what he felt was right, without regard to the consequences. He knew that the "believers" would probably persecute him, while the sinners would turn to him. This presupposes that celebrating and endorsing a same-sex wedding is "right." I am not sure such a presupposition is warranted. Quote I personally feel that the only people who would have negative impressions of me for attending such an event would be the stone-throwing believers. However, my attendance would leave impressions from the other side that would speak worlds of good about my Christian beliefs, practices, and principles. As you like. I have a more charitable view of my fellow believers (I find offensive your characterization of believers who differ from you on this point as "stone-throwing"). I also think that opponents of the Church will likely exploit the participation of Latter-day Saints in same-sex weddings as rhetorical weapons against the LDS Church. I think they will attempt to use such Latter-day Saints as leverage against the leaders of the Church, to foment discord and disunity in the Church, to characterize Latter-day Saints who decline to participate in same-sex weddings as judgmental bigots (or, as you put it, "stone-throwing believers"), and so on. Thanks, -Smac EDIT TO ADD: The more I think on the ramifications of attending a same-sex wedding, the more inclined I am to be definitive in my decision to not attend one, even that of a family member. I think the patent symbolism of participating in such an event is too incongruous with my personal beliefs, my moral code, and my desire to not give false or misleading impressions to others. Edited March 16, 2016 by smac97 3
USU78 Posted March 16, 2016 Posted March 16, 2016 17 minutes ago, pogi said: I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about attending the gay marriage of a friend or family member. One of these things is just like the other.
USU78 Posted March 16, 2016 Posted March 16, 2016 20 minutes ago, Mars said: but they're not getting married in our Temple. Why does that make a difference?
Jeanne Posted March 16, 2016 Posted March 16, 2016 3 hours ago, ALarson said: Exactly. I love my friend and I love his son. I want to support them both (and my wife is in full agreement). We will be there. I am thrilled that this young man's family members are all going to be there too. I'm sure that means a lot to him. (Plus a famous TV personality/cook is going to cater the reception...bonus!! ) . Shoot! I would want to bake his cake!
mtomm Posted March 16, 2016 Posted March 16, 2016 1 hour ago, USU78 said: You misunderstand. I'm mourning the choices whereby the principal participants cut themselves off with their own right hands. I have no reason to apologize for a judgment I myself do not make, but recognize Somebody Else has made, Somebody far above my pay grade. I think you are right and he gets to be the judge and not I. I can attend the wedding and let God do the condemning.
The Nehor Posted March 16, 2016 Posted March 16, 2016 (edited) Is there cheesecake? I will go to a strip club or a KKK meeting if they have good cheesecake. Edited March 16, 2016 by The Nehor 3
Jeanne Posted March 16, 2016 Posted March 16, 2016 3 hours ago, cinepro said: Hopefully the son's fiancee has been raised in a church that teaches that the presence of parents at the wedding is only incidental. And they will regret not being there for many years to come. It serves no one to be so condemning. Perhaps if they call it support instead of celebrating. 1
Mars Posted March 16, 2016 Posted March 16, 2016 10 minutes ago, USU78 said: Why does that make a difference? it makes a difference to me. it affects the comparison. judas(?) maccabee, being forced to observe the rite practiced in the Temple, vs. us being compelled by social norms to observe a rite NOT practiced in the Temple. i disagree with gay marriage. with same sex-marriage. with 'marriage' as a term inasmuch as it applies to the ceremonial union of two people who were evolved or intentionally created to not have the biology necessary to reproduce. embracing such unions as good, strong, and part of God's will is contrary to the Plan of Salvation. i say that knowing full well that good and strong and honest people on this board derive a great deal of satisfaction, peace, and joy in their union. i say it knowing i'll hurt their feelings, and that brings me no comfort. overall, i don't think it's God's will, and i don't think it's how we're supposed to build families - supposed to inasmuch as our understanding of the entire Plan of Salvation hinges on Mothers and Fathers and Children. but i don't think your comparison is a good one in this instance. 2
pogi Posted March 16, 2016 Posted March 16, 2016 (edited) 47 minutes ago, smac97 said: This presupposes that celebrating and endorsing a same-sex wedding is "right." I am not sure such a presupposition is warranted. You are under the presumption that I would be "celebrating" or "endorsing" a same sex marriage by attending. To use your words, "I am not sure such a presumption is warranted." To use BlueDreams parallel, if you presume that I would be "celebrating" or "endorsing" baby baptism by attending a friends Catholic child's baptism, you would be mistaken. 47 minutes ago, smac97 said: The impression I give to others will be based on my conduct, and it is for them to decide, not for me to decide for them. I was talking about our reasons and significance to us of our attendance - that other's can't decide that for us. They may presume, but they may be wrong. I would have no difficulty explaining to my child or bishop the reasons for my attendance, and my position on gay marriage. I have no doubt that they would not condemn my behavior. Just as words can alter the perception of others in explaining your non-attendance, words can have the same effect on altering the perception of others in explaining my attendance. They are simply two different approaches. I don't think one is right or wrong. It has to be a personal choice that aligns with your conscience as there is no commandment one way or the other. 47 minutes ago, smac97 said: As you like. I have a more charitable view of my fellow believers (I find offensive your characterization of believers who differ from you on this point as "stone-throwing"). I also think that opponents of the Church will likely exploit the participation of Latter-day Saints in same-sex weddings as rhetorical weapons against the LDS Church. I think they will attempt to use such Latter-day Saints as leverage against the leaders of the Church, to foment discord and disunity in the Church, to characterize Latter-day Saints who decline to participate in same-sex weddings as judgmental bigots (or, as you put it, "stone-throwing believers"), and so on. Perhaps I am misunderstood. I am not characterizing believers who differ from me as "stone-throwers". I did not use that term in that context. However, I would characterize believers who condemn me, or judge me negatively, or who insist that I am "sustaining" or "condoning" gay marriage because of my choice to attend, as stone throwers. I agree with you about the opponents of the Church, but I am not talking about that. Edited March 16, 2016 by pogi 2
Jeanne Posted March 16, 2016 Posted March 16, 2016 3 hours ago, consiglieri said: Your position reminds me of what happened with my brother when I got married back in 1985. I was married in the temple, but we had a ring ceremony afterward at the stake center for the many non-Mormons in both families. I had invited my brother to attend. He said he would like to, but if he attended, and somebody saw him there, they might think he agreed with me. And so he declined. My brother is a Jehovah's Witness. When I joined the LDS Church in 1978, there seemed to be all the difference in the world to me between the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses. Over the years, I have seen the LDS Church become more and more like the Jehovah's Witnesses. I do not see it as a change for the better. Wow...In my little home town, we were basically all LDS. There were some JW's that lived on my corner and her relatives a few miles away. They always stopped by to preach a lesson and leave pamphlets..so I am surprised that they would NOT think it would be okay to have a member be at a ring ceremony, One of the JW's daughter kept her wedding cake in our freezer for awhile..
USU78 Posted March 16, 2016 Posted March 16, 2016 7 minutes ago, mtomm said: I think you are right and he gets to be the judge and not I. I can attend the wedding and let God do the condemning. You understand the between judging and observing. When the participants in immoral acts celebrate those acts in a very public way, my observing their participation and correctly identifying them as immoral involves no judgment: the participants judge themselves. 1
Jeanne Posted March 16, 2016 Posted March 16, 2016 3 hours ago, bluebell said: Yes, I would attend that as well. Me too. Especially if I knew the bride. The thing is, they really do need the support of people they care about and as far as I am concerned, it is an honor to be cared about.
T-Shirt Posted March 16, 2016 Posted March 16, 2016 3 hours ago, ALarson said: There are not many young men who are as good and strong and full of integrity as this young man is (and I've heard wonderful things about his partner too). They both have their doctorates, are very successful in their professions and together they give a tremendous amount back to their community through charitable acts and much service. Would you feel differently if they were selfish, scumbag criminals?
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