Reaching out to our Youth in Post-Policy Mormonism

[Storm Rider]

17 hours ago, maxrep12 said:

A coroner's inquest is simply not what you are making it out to be;  

 

The validity and reliability of certifications of suicide are decreased for several reasons. The determination of suicide requires that the death be established as both self-inflicted and intentional. For most certifiers, establishing intentionality is the most difficult criterion. A coroner or medical examiner who suspects suicide may be reluctant to impose social stigma, guilt, and loss of insurance benefits on the victim's family. Since many certifiers lack explicit criteria for assessing suicidal intent, they might search for a narrower range of evidence concerning intent. Thus, a certifier might conclude that a death was not a suicide because information proving intent was not collected. However, absence of evidence of intent is not evidence of absence of intent. Some certifiers require a suicide note to certify a death as suicide. Yet, only about one third of persons who commit suicide leave such notes. Forensic science experts also differ on the proper certification of deaths for psychotic, very young, or alcohol- or drug-intoxicated persons.

This sounds like complete poppycock.  Where is the reference to support these statements?

[Scott Lloyd]

36 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

do many teens have life insurance policies?

I have three teens, and none do -- except for one of my employee benefits, which would pay enough for a burial. 

[Calm]

Quote

By the time I could get up and go sit next to him and start a conversation on a different subject (my plan), others got on the train, and he shut up. 

It is hard to know what to do in those situations.  I spoke up once with the intent to help out a customer service person who was being subjected to an inappropriate tirade (practically screamed at by a man because the kids' playroom was full and they would have to shop with their kids in tow because safety only allowed so many kids in the area at once...don't come on a busy day or call ahead of time if you are depending on such a service, sheesh, or just be responsible for your own kids for awhile), but it just set the guy off in another direction and the young woman herself appeared to be completely composed and able to handle it and while she appreciated my concern, she said it was just part of the job.

I think your plan was a good one.  It didn't draw attention to the woman herself, but would have hopefully stopped what she was having to endure.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Calm

[Jeanne]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I have three teens, and none do -- except for one of my employee benefits, which would pay enough for a burial. 

This is probably true.  in my first reply I was speaking as suicides in general.  Adults do have policies of course.  For teens who have already lost a parent, there is some Life or SS that belongs to them.  This happened in my nieces case. Should this teen die his benefit goes to another sibling.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Jeanne

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

This is probably true.  in my first reply I was speaking as suicides in general.  Adults do have policies of course.  For teens who have already lost a parent, there is some Life or SS that belongs to them.  This happened in my nieces case. 

I think it would be unlikely that teens would very often think they were worth more to their parents dead than alive, at least in terms of money.  Adults are in a different situation where they feel financially reponsible for taking care of their loved ones.  Parents who would cover up their kids' suicide for insurance money seem likely a rare occurence as well and there would have been much worse family dynamics to deal with than a church policy so I think this possibility of mislabeling the teen suicides referred to can be ruled out.  

Edited January 30, 2016 by Calm

[Thinking]

Suicide only invalidates an insurance policy if it is written in the policy. When I obtained my life insurance policy the agent jokingly told me that I couldn't commit suicide for 2 years. I was puzzled so he explained that after 2 years suicide was covered.

[Jeanne]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think it would be unlikely that teens would very often think they were worth more to their parents dead than alive, at least in terms of money.  Adults are in a different situation where they feel financially reponsible for taking care of their loved ones.  Parents who would cover up their kids' suicide for insurance money seem likely a rare occurence as well and there would have been much worse family dynamics to deal with than a church policy so I think this possibility of mislabeling the teen suicides referred to can be ruled out.  

Oh...I would agree. and.it is totally different with the teens.  And that would never be the case unless there was family that needed to be taken care of.  In all cases..monetary benefit would be at the very least of such sadness and trauma.  I don't know of any parents that would take monetary value to that extreme.  My comment in the beginning was just because I knew it was possible.  Policy issues aside..nothing can compensate a loss of a child.

[Avatar4321]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

There is a lot of anger over the new policy, particularly among those who were holding out hope that the Church was on a path toward declaring that which is sinful (homosexual behavior) as being non-sinful; that's not news.

The question is whether the anger and bitterness is well-placed. It's not.

Laman and Lemuel were often angry at Nephi as well. I'm not sure it vewent well for them

[Avatar4321]

3 hours ago, consiglieri said:

It is important to try as best we can to establish the truth of things.

Which is precisely why we can't take many of your posts seriously

[Avatar4321]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

When the church gives automatic apostate status to heterosexuals living together but not married and puts the same limits on children of such relationships as the do those for children of homosexual relationships then your comments above as well as so many other down the line defenders here may have some substance.

So you're not even reading what I said are you?

[Avatar4321]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

He will, of course, say the Church's recent policy changes (defining participation in a same-sex marriage as a form of apostasy, and requiring children being raised in a same-sex family to wait until they are 18 to be baptized) encourages teen suicide.

But my thought is that the policy is not creating near as much angst as the rhetoric about the policy from critics and enemies of the Church.  These folks are like bullies in a schoolyard, gathering around some hapless kid and screaming at him "Everyone hates you!  Your parents hate you!  Your friends hate you!  Your religious leaders hate you!"

A kid subjected to such nonstop vitriol could certainly be adversely affected by it.  But if that happens, then it would be absurd to accuse the kid's parents and friends and religious leaders of causing the angst.

I think the Latter-day Saints can and should do better in treating gay teens with love and compassion and inclusion.  But in terms of claims that the Church's recent policy change has somehow encouraged or caused teen suicides, I'm skeptical.  I'm skeptical because A) the allegations are, to date, facially dubious and almost certainly wildly exaggerated, and B) to the extent teens have been distressed, I think the distress arises more from the rhetoric about the policy from critics and enemies of the Church than from the policy itself.

Thanks,

-Smac

And yet none of the policies have any effect on lds teens

[Avatar4321]

I'm not sure if this is off topic but how do lds lgbt suicides rates compare to non lds lgbt suicide rates?

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

I'm not sure if this is off topic but how do lds lgbt suicides rates compare to non lds lgbt suicide rates?

There isn't specific data out there. 

Edited January 30, 2016 by Calm

[Teancum]

20 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

So you're not even reading what I said are you?

Not sure what you are referring to.  Be more specific.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Teancum

[Avatar4321]

9 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Not sure what you are referring to.  Be more specific.

The topic is teen suicides in the church. You have been arguing that the recent policy changes are influencing those rates by giving them the status of apostates, when I point out that said policies made absolutely no teen an apostate, you did not bother to address the point and continue to discuss the policies. What conclusion am I supposed to reach other than you aren't actually reading what I have written?

[Avatar4321]

22 minutes ago, Calm said:

There isn't specific data out there. 

So for all we know is they could be at the same rates as our whole society or lds lgbt suicide rates could be lower than the norm.

Shouldn't we have some comparative studies like this to assess the situation before we could determine how to address the suicide issue?

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, Thinking said:

Suicide only invalidates an insurance policy if it is written in the policy. When I obtained my life insurance policy the agent jokingly told me that I couldn't commit suicide for 2 years. I was puzzled so he explained that after 2 years suicide was covered.

This is true, 

[VideoGameJunkie]

I'm pretty sure the people who commit suicide regret the decision sometime in the afterlife. Probably if they see the pain it causes their living family members.

[CV75]

4 hours ago, smac97 said:

He will, of course, say the Church's recent policy changes (defining participation in a same-sex marriage as a form of apostasy, and requiring children being raised in a same-sex family to wait until they are 18 to be baptized) encourage teen suicide.

But my thought is that the policy is not creating near as much angst as the rhetoric about the policy from critics and enemies of the Church.  These folks are like bullies in a schoolyard, gathering around some hapless kid and screaming at him "Everyone hates you!  Your parents hate you!  Your friends hate you!  Your religious leaders hate you!"

A kid subjected to such nonstop vitriol could certainly be adversely affected by it.  But if that happens, then it would be absurd to accuse the kid's parents and friends and religious leaders of causing the angst.

I think the Latter-day Saints can and should do better in treating gay teens with love and compassion and inclusion.  But in terms of claims that the Church's recent policy change has somehow encouraged or caused teen suicides, I'm skeptical.  I'm skeptical because A) the allegations are, to date, facially dubious and almost certainly wildly exaggerated, and B) to the extent teens have been distressed, I think the distress arises more from the rhetoric about the policy from critics and enemies of the Church than from the policy itself.

Thanks,

-Smac

Similarly, I think it is quite a stretch to say that the new Church policy offsets all the support available to GLBT teens through family, religious affiliation and private observation, school and community support and advocacy groups, widespread media validation and other resources. Anyone mischaracterizing and misrepresenting the new policy or any Church teaching as an indictment against simply “being gay” is creating unnecessary stress for the GLBT youth he purports to be shepherding.

Such people need to be honest and accurate about what the Church teaches, even if they disagree with it. I think this gets to your point about the rhetoric a youth can get swept up in from those they should be able to depend on for guidance and support.

The new policy is not about “being gay” but about being a child dependent on gay parents, who having involuntarily been placed under such circumstances and strong moral influences, is recognized as better able to enter a religious “contract” once he can choose and influence his own circumstances.

[Teancum]

3 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

The topic is teen suicides in the church. You have been arguing that the recent policy changes are influencing those rates by giving them the status of apostates, when I point out that said policies made absolutely no teen an apostate, you did not bother to address the point and continue to discuss the policies. What conclusion am I supposed to reach other than you aren't actually reading what I have written?

Ok.  But the teen knows that if they ever act on their sexuality they will be branded as such.   You don't think that is a stresser?

[smac97]

39 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Ok.  But the teen knows that if they ever act on their sexuality they will be branded as such.   You don't think that is a stresser?

No, they won't.  Homosexual conduct might be an excommunicable offense.  But then so can heterosexual misconduct such as fornication or adultery.  But even then the excommunication would be for sexual misconduct, not "apostasy."  The recent policy change pertaining to apostasy is for people who enter into a same-sex marriage.  And even then there's no "branding" in any meaningful sense.  The Church does not publish the grounds for excommunication.

I'm not sure where you are coming from here.  

Thanks,

Smac

Edited January 31, 2016 by smac97

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

 

Shouldn't we have some comparative studies like this to assess the situation before we could determine how to address the suicide issue?

In some things we should wait, probably there is much we can already do though that have been demonstrated as to be likely to be helpful.

[VideoGameJunkie]

If the new policy hadn't come out would any of those who killed themselves still be alive?

Edited January 31, 2016 by VideoGameJunkie

[JLHPROF]

21 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

If the new policy hadn't come out would any of those who killed themselves still be alive?

That's too much speculation to reasonably make.  Without knowing the mental condition of those involved nobody could ever say.

 

[VideoGameJunkie]

Here's a letter a gay member of the church wrote to the apostles, but didn't send. It's full of subjectiveness, but interesting to see a gay man's perspective. http://snapshotsofchad.com/2016/01/29/dear-mormon-leaders/