Reaching out to our Youth in Post-Policy Mormonism

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, maxrep12 said:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/mormontherapist/2016/01/double-binds-hurt-us.html#disqus_thread

The link above details where and how the numbers were arrived at(From Natasha Helfer Parker).

In the spirit of documentation required, meaning independently verifiable, can we discuss Joseph Smith's claim that he was commanded by an angel with a drawn sword to practice polygamy? Is this a two way street?

Suicide count statistics are provable facts, and are subject to verification and reference requirements.

The faith claims of a prophet are just that - faith claims.  Believing in the angel with the drawn sword is not supposed to be independently verifiable, anymore than the resurrection of Christ.

Apples and oranges.

[Scott Lloyd]

13 hours ago, maxrep12 said:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/mormontherapist/2016/01/double-binds-hurt-us.html#disqus_thread

The link above details where and how the numbers were arrived at(From Natasha Helfer Parker).

 

From the link:
 

Quote

 

This information is self-reported by grieving family members. Verifying this information is also complicate by multiple factors:

1) Most reports were from immediate family but often not the parents. 
2) Many times the parents were not aware of or in denial of the sexual orientation of their children. And it is a common Mormon belief that people aren’t gay in heaven so their child is no longer gay.
3) Because of shame, other families will hide that their child was LGBT.
4) These are self-reported by people reaching out in grief for support, so we are not hiring investigators to verify. 
5) There are many circumstances in which accidents or drug overdoses of legal or illegal drugs are not reported as suicides.

 

It strikes me that there is a lot here that strains credibility, especially in light of the fact that the alleged number is contradicted by a state agency.

I've seen official death certificates before; if the cause of death was self-inflicted, it will be identified as such.

I don't want to belabor this in view of the warning from the moderator, but the remark from maxrep12 seemed to require a response.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Avatar4321]

3 hours ago, ALarson said:

No one has established that these reports of teen suicides are "pure nonsense".  Just because you say this does not mean it's the truth.

Salt lake tribune and the state of Utah are no one? Who knew?

[maxrep12]

6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Suicide count statistics are provable facts

If a suicide is not reported as a suicide, then this information is lost. A suicide can take place regardless of the reporting methods of the state. I think we all understand that.

[JLHPROF]

4 minutes ago, maxrep12 said:

If a suicide is not reported as a suicide, then this information is lost. A suicide can take place regardless of the reporting methods of the state. I think we all understand that.

True enough.
Still not comparable to the faith claims of a prophet.

[maxrep12]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Still not comparable to the faith claims of a prophet.

Amen

[Scott Lloyd]

11 minutes ago, maxrep12 said:

If a suicide is not reported as a suicide, then this information is lost. A suicide can take place regardless of the reporting methods of the state. I think we all understand that.

From the Trib piece (quoted by Avatar):

Quote

 

"We monitor the numbers [of youth suicides] very closely. We review them every month," says Teresa Brechlin, who works in the department's violence- and injury-prevention program. "If we had seen such a huge spike, we would have been investigating it."

Had there been any mention of the LDS Church's policy on gays, her department "would have noted that," Brechlin adds."

 

Every violent death is required to be reported to the police. If the cause is suicide, It's pretty obvious to law enforcement officers, who are trained and experienced in identifying causes of such death. It's what they do.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Storm Rider]

6 minutes ago, maxrep12 said:

If a suicide is not reported as a suicide, then this information is lost. A suicide can take place regardless of the reporting methods of the state. I think we all understand that.

And who does that reporting?  Do you think it is the families?  How about the police?  Oh, I know it is only the Mama Dragons or the Family Acceptance Project?  This is where the numbers Montgomery reported just fall apart and have no basis in reality.  Regardless of how many times we see what the state, WHO ACTUALLY MONITORS THESE EVENTS CLOSELY, reports and demonstrates that the actual numbers of suicides does not come close to the exaggerated, inflated, or simple lies - we have people running around repeating them ad infinitum.  

Who gains from inflated numbers?  Who is motivated to inflate the numbers?  

This is not rocket science 

Finally, no.  A suicide does not occur in a vacuum.  Shockingly, the police verify along with the medical examiner if a suicide takes place.  Even those who take a care and run into a wall.  Can some suicides be classified incorrectly?  Yes.  Does that invalidate the reported numbers of the state?  No.  Yes, rational people should understand this.  

[Teancum]

On January 29, 2016 at 10:50 PM, Russell C McGregor said:

Especially those who are trying to stay faithful to principles of truth and righteousness, in the face of a chorus of manipulators putting relentless pressure on them to cave in to the prevailing social currents.

The kindest thing we can do for them is to make it clear that that chorus is entirely contrary to the Gospel, and that no actual Latter-day Saints are participating in it.

 

Edited January 30, 2016 by Teancum

[Teancum]

16 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

It's disgusting because of the implication that church actions and policies are responsible for someone exercising their agency. Is the church responsible for s drunk driver when we encourage people not to drink? The idea that we can somehow override someones agency is absurd.

So yes it's disgusting. The only one responsible is the one who acted to cause it. Or is the church suddenly to be punished for the sins of others now? I could have sworn the same people claiming this was wrong not too long ago.

Funny how it ceases to be wrong when it can be used to attack the church. Almost as if that is the entire point.

If the church and its defenders take credit do the good things in the lives of its adherents that it attributes to what the LDS leaders teach it must own the bad things as well.

[Teancum]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

 

Going off of memory, but didn't Teancum state it was a possibility?  And Stemelbow said it as well...though I am unclear in my memory as to if he dislikes the policy or is more neutral at this point.  Possibly ALarson as well, I have the impression he isn't happy about the policy but said something that the reaction might have caused problems itself.

There may be others.

Yes I did.

[smac97]

20 minutes ago, Teancum said:

If the church and its defenders take credit do the good things in the lives of its adherents that it attributes to what the LDS leaders teach it must own the bad things as well.

Facile nonsense.

As an attorney, if I give my client sound legal counsel, and if he follows it, and if he benefits legally thereby, then I can take credit for that.

But if I give my client sound legal counsel, and if he disregards it, and if bad legal consequences thereby accrue to him, then I'm not going to take credit for that.  

This is grade school logic, dude.

If you are suggesting that the LDS Church is teaching its members to hate gay people, or to shun them, or to abandon them, or to do anything other than treat them with love and kindness and respect and compassion, then CFR.  I'm not looking for paraphrasing, or interpretation, or extrapolation, or anything like that.  Chapter and verse.  Verbatim quotes.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited January 30, 2016 by smac97

[Teancum]

2 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Facile nonsense.

Only to someone who has an agenda.

[Calm]

If there was a rise in unreported teen suicides, there would be a rise in death by accident.  Is there any indication that this has occurred?

[Teancum]

6 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Facile nonsense.

As an attorney, if I give my client sound legal counsel, and if he follows it, and if he benefits legally thereby, then I can take credit for that.

But if I give my client sound legal counsel, and if he disregards it, and if bad legal consequences thereby accrue to him, then I'm not going to take credit for that.  

This is grade school logic, dude.

-Smac

If you give your client bad legal advice and he follows it and or suffers from it he will sue you and your firm.  I hope you have good malpractice insurance.   Seems you may need it.

Basics of business dude.  

 

Edited January 30, 2016 by Teancum

[smac97]

5 minutes ago, Teancum said:

If you give your client bad legal advice and he follows it and or suffers from it he will sue you and your firm.  I hope you have good malpractice insurance.   Seems you may need it.

Basics of business dude.  

 

If you are suggesting that the LDS Church is teaching its members to hate gay people, or to shun them, or to abandon them, or to do anything other than treat them with love and kindness and respect and compassion, then CFR.  I'm not looking for paraphrasing, or interpretation, or extrapolation, or anything like that.  Chapter and verse.  Verbatim quotes.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

9 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Only to someone who has an agenda.

You misspelled "from."  It's never spelled "to."

Let me correct it for you: "Only from someone who has an agenda."

You're welcome!

-Smac

[Teancum]

10 minutes ago, smac97 said:

If you are suggesting that the LDS Church is teaching its members to hate gay people, or to shun them, or to abandon them, or to do anything other than treat them with love and kindness and respect and compassion, then CFR.  I'm not looking for paraphrasing, or interpretation, or extrapolation, or anything like that.  Chapter and verse.  Verbatim quotes.

Thanks,

-Smac

Gee did I say that?  However if you equate automatic apostate status as love, kindness and compassion then you are simply foolish.  For the CFR I refer you to the recent LDS church policy regarding gay marriage and children of such relationships as well as President Nelson's declaration of said policy as revelation.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Teancum

[Teancum]

7 minutes ago, smac97 said:

You misspelled "from."  It's never spelled "to."

Let me correct it for you: "Only from someone who has an agenda."

You're welcome!

-Smac

Gee thanks for the grammar lesson.  I assume you have no better response then ozzing condescension.  What a compelling argument.

[smac97]

5 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Gee did I say that?  However if you equate automatic apostate status as love, kindness and compassion then you are simply foolish.  For the CFR I refer you to the recent LDS church policy regarding gay marriage and children of such relationships as well as President Nelson's declaration of said policy as revelation.

Again: "If you are suggesting that the LDS Church is teaching its members to hate gay people, or to shun them, or to abandon them, or to do anything other than treat them with love and kindness and respect and compassion, then CFR.  I'm not looking for paraphrasing, or interpretation, or extrapolation, or anything like that.  Chapter and verse.  Verbatim quotes."

What part of the CHI teaches Latter-day Saints "to hate gay people, or to shun them, or to abandon them, or to do anything other than treat them with love and kindness and respect and compassion?"  CFR, please.  Chapter and verse.  Verbatim quotes.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Teancum]

1 minute ago, smac97 said:

Again: "If you are suggesting that the LDS Church is teaching its members to hate gay people, or to shun them, or to abandon them, or to do anything other than treat them with love and kindness and respect and compassion, then CFR.  I'm not looking for paraphrasing, or interpretation, or extrapolation, or anything like that.  Chapter and verse.  Verbatim quotes."

What part of the CHI teaches Latter-day Saints "to hate gay people, or to shun them, or to abandon them, or to do anything other than treat them with love and kindness and respect and compassion?"  CFR, please.  Chapter and verse.  Verbatim quotes.

Thanks,

-Smac

I gave you your CFR.   show me the love and compassion in the new policy so called revelation.   CFR....chapter, verse, verbatim.   Labeling someone an apostate....such an ugly word...is not love, kind or compassionate.  Really you are bright enough to know what results from such policies.  It's too bad your need to defend the LDS Chuch in all,things at all costs blinds you to this.

 

[maxrep12]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Every violent death is required to be reported to the police. If the cause it's suicide, It's pretty obvious to law enforcement officers, who are trained and experienced in identifying causes of such death. It's what they do.

A coroner's inquest is simply not what you are making it out to be;  

 

The validity and reliability of certifications of suicide are decreased for several reasons. The determination of suicide requires that the death be established as both self-inflicted and intentional. For most certifiers, establishing intentionality is the most difficult criterion. A coroner or medical examiner who suspects suicide may be reluctant to impose social stigma, guilt, and loss of insurance benefits on the victim's family. Since many certifiers lack explicit criteria for assessing suicidal intent, they might search for a narrower range of evidence concerning intent. Thus, a certifier might conclude that a death was not a suicide because information proving intent was not collected. However, absence of evidence of intent is not evidence of absence of intent. Some certifiers require a suicide note to certify a death as suicide. Yet, only about one third of persons who commit suicide leave such notes. Forensic science experts also differ on the proper certification of deaths for psychotic, very young, or alcohol- or drug-intoxicated persons.

[california boy]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

I was lucky in comparison to most who experience suicidal thoughts.  Mine were caused by medication and once I stopped taking it, much of the depression lifted.  Still had massive anxiety, but that just caused me to hide in the apartment.  Remarkable what sleep deprivation can cause.

It was nothing, of course, compared to those facing a view that one is going to have to live with what they see as the reality for the rest of their lives.  My first experience with depression caused by medication happened right after I was married, got hit with it on the way home from our honeymoon in fact.  For the next two, three months, I went deeper in numbness, but not suicide thank goodness.  Thought the cause was making a mistake at marriage but had resolved to stick with it since I had made that commitment, that I could grow to love my husband since he was a wonderful man even if I wasn't physically attracted to him (the medication had killed my feelings of love and attraction so much, I didn't think they had been love).  Looking back on that decision, I think what an idiot I would have been if that had been the reality not to have given him the choice no matter how much it would have hurt to begin with.  And I think of all those who feel that way not because of medication, but because that is their reality for life, whether it is because they are LGBT and wondering how to live a Gospel center life but not experiencing the joy that is promised to come from it or another reason.  I don't know how people learn to live with it and be happy.  I felt I was going to have to just turn off my desire for those feelings and just move through life without feeling much.  It also taught me that those feelings might not be the eternal reality of the person, but imposed upon one by influences out of one's control.  I don't deny the possibility that in some cases, that is not true.

(My poor husband, he has been through a lot, very grateful for him putting up with the trauma of being married to me...otoh, I tend to be very understanding and forgiving and not terribly demanding so there is some reward  )

Both of your posts give those that want to understand what it might be like growing up gay in the Mormon faith some insight into what they may have to deal with.  Thanks for sharing.  Sometimes I think very few really understand or want to understand.  I have read through this thread without much comment.  It mostly brings back all those painful memories I had when I was involved in the church.  The stance most have taken is an "us vs them" stance.  They are lying.  They are attacking the church.  Their concerns are unfounded.  Your compatriots vs us diligent righteous members defending the church of God.  Not much has changed since Prop 8.  It is still an us vs them mentality.  If you are a gay Mormon, what do you think that does to you personally?  Are you suppose to also choose a side?  What side do you choose?  When these types of discussions come up, are you suppose to defend the church or the gay community that you may not be a part of, but yet you are because you are gay and you will never be straight, no matter how much you try or pretend.

Larson's posted time and again that perhaps we should approach this issue the way the church has approached it.  His suggestion fell on deaf ears.  it was more important to defend the church against perceived attacks.  This is exactly my reality as well.  I remember how much church leaders time and again asked for love and understanding towards those that are gay.  Yet my family who were all very active in the church still decided to exclude me from all family functions.  Once again, the counsel church leaders express on how to consider this issue fell on deaf ears in favor of a more strident defending of the church.  Yeah I get it.  You think it is your duty to defend the church at all costs.  Sometimes the costs are extremely high when you make it all about us vs them.  And no, I am not talking about suicide.  It is far more than just that.  

So have at it.  I have just given you permission to now start attacking me as well.  That is the nature of posting on this board.  I know the attitude.  I expect it.  And I pretty much know who will be the first to attack my post.

 

[Thinking]

On 1/29/2016 at 9:42 PM, VideoGameJunkie said:

Has anyone here ever interacted with a LGBT mormon because I havent. I've never been aware of one. And it seems all those mass resignations coming in to that lawyer and the church since November have been by straight people who were already inactive. I've yet to meet a gay mormon.

 

 

[VideoGameJunkie]

6 minutes ago, Thinking said:

 

 

Good example.