Reaching out to our Youth in Post-Policy Mormonism

[Calm]

55 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

If all this were true, Consig, then yes.  I would say, from what Iv'e seen, the 34 number is questionable.  Or it's also possible the 34 number is accurate and our historic figure is wrong if suicide reporting is the problem.  What if someone had inside knowledge as the Momma Dragons lady did (if she is correct), on all suicides before?  I wonder what such a view would suggest about all of this. 

Montgomery stated 32 deaths, 26 in Utah.  For some reason, the blogger (I can't remember name) made an error and made that 34 and 28.  Just correcting to avoid confusion in the future.

[bluebell]

10 minutes ago, salgare said:

Here is the wicked Mama Dragon, I understand she is still Mormon.

 

 

 

 

It's possible to disagree with someone and not believe they are wicked. 

This idea that agreement is mandatory in order to respect someone is a mindset that is ruining our society. 

[Danzo]

3 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Which is why I was so surprised and responded accordingly..then got my butt chewed out.  These kids are your Wards!!

This is the problem, these kids are not in my ward (or Stake, or even State), seeing that the numbers sited are on an order of magnitude greater than official numbers, most of them are not in any wards.

The youth in my ward have problems, some of which I am aware of, and probably some that I am not aware of.  But for you to say that people in my ward are killing themselves, when they are not, and that I am responsible for deaths that haven't happened, or to people who I have never met. . .  That is offensive.

Do you feel responsible for everyone who commits suicide?

 

I recently had the experience professionally with someone who killed herself over over tax debt with the IRS.

If I were to address this issue the way the OP essay did, I would say something like "It doesn't matter what anyone thinks, we need to stop it! "   "Stop trying to collect tax!"  "If anyone advocates for more tax or supports the IRS I say 'Out damn Spot'". " People are dying." " One death is too many" "IRS Needs to Change", etc.

 

to make a long story short, I spent many hours talking and grieving with this women's parents and husband, talking about the issues.  The reality was, although the IRS was the stated reason for the suicide, it really came down to her inability to face her husband, he had no clue, the first he heard about it was after she died, and it was his debt not hers. She had been hiding the mail from him and couldn't face him when the IRS started Garnishment.  As far as the debt owed, it was pretty small compared to most tax debt I deal with.  All it would have taken was a conversation with the husband and a call to the IRS to stop the garnishment.

So you see, suicides are more complex and individual than just blaming an institution (even when the Institution was the stated reason for the suicide).

 

Every Suicide is a tragedy and deserves individual attention, compassion, understanding and love among those that know and deal with the victim and the family.

Blaming strangers and institutions with group guilt doesn't help, is wrong and immoral.

 

Edited January 29, 2016 by Danzo

[Jeanne]

4 minutes ago, Danzo said:

This is the problem, these kids are not in my ward (or Stake, or even State), seeing that the numbers sited are on an order of magnitude greater than official numbers, most of them are not in any wards.

The youth in my ward have problems, some of which I am aware of, and probably some that I am not aware of.  But for you to say that people in my ward are killing themselves, when they are not, and that I am responsible for deaths that haven't happened, or to people who I have never met. . .  That is offensive.

Do you feel responsible for everyone who commits suicide?

 

I recently had the experience professionally with someone who killed herself over over tax debt with the IRS.

If I were to address this issue the way the OP essay did, I would say something like "It doesn't matter what anyone thinks, we need to stop it! "   "Stop trying to collect tax!"  "If anyone advocates for more tax or supports the IRS I say 'Out damn Spot'". " People are dying." " One death is too many" "IRS Needs to Change", etc.

 

to make a long story short, I spend many hours talking and grieving with this women's parents and husband, talking about the issues.  The reality was, although the IRS was the stated reason for the suicide, it really came down to her inability to face her husband, he had no clue, the first he heard about it was after she died, and it was his debt not hers. She had been hiding the mail from him and couldn't face him when the IRS started Garnishment.  As far as the debt owed, it was pretty small compared to most tax debt I deal with.  All it would have taken was a conversation with the husband and a call to the IRS to stop the garnishment.

So you see, suicides are more complex and individual than just blaming an institution (even when the Institution was the stated reason for the suicide).

 

Every Suicide is a tragedy and deserves individual attention, compassion, understanding and love among those that know and deal with the victim and the family.

Blaming strangers and institutions with group guilt doesn't help, is wrong and immoral.

 

And you can tell..in the whole stake..which ones a gay and which ones are not?  You don't know.  You just don't know who is in your pews that are struggling with anything.

[Meadowchik]

1 hour ago, rockpond said:

It's a bad thing to ask people to stop arguing?

As members of the church, we are all connected... That was explained at the Waters of Mormon. 

In this context, yes, as a matter of fact.  She's not speaking to a room of squabbling kids, she is at the very least addressing all of her fellow English-speaking LDS. And in the context of the essay, she is using the broad term of "arguing," one that includes making or explaining an argument for or against a position. In any case, she is presuming to tell millions of other people who each have their own beliefs and convictions to stop.  She herself is making an argument. She herself is arguing.  Imagine sitting in a room having a lively perhaps delicate discussion among other adults.  Someone walks in and says to stop. You, btw, have something important to say, you feel even inspired to do so.  And, furthermore, this is what reasonable people do. They talk about things.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Meadowchik

[smac97]

Just now, Jeanne said:

And you can tell..in the whole stake..which ones a gay and which ones are not?  You don't know.  You just don't know who is in your pews that are struggling with anything.

And yet, somehow, he is culpable for those struggles?  That seems to be the gravamen of the article in the OP.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Danzo]

Just now, Jeanne said:

And you can tell..in the whole stake..which ones a gay and which ones are not?  You don't know.  You just don't know who is in your pews that are struggling with anything.

I think I would know if someone committed suicide, or at least if they died.

Perhaps I need to start asking people if they are gay each time I see them, that would help the situation. (now you accuse me bashing gays that I don't even know are gay)

[ALarson]

5 minutes ago, Danzo said:

This is the problem, these kids are not in my ward (or Stake, or even State), seeing that the numbers sited are on an order of magnitude greater than official numbers, most of them are not in any wards.

And so, you don't care?  They are in someone's ward, Stake and State.  And, there ARE kids in your ward, Stake and State who are struggling with this issue (quietly and privately most likely). Just because it hasn't personally touched your life yet, doesn't mean it's not happening or not something you should be concerned about.

I've now read posts (on other forums) from members of the church who personally know Wendy Montgomery (fellow ward members) who state that she is active, has integrity and would not lie about these numbers.  I don't understand why so many immediately call her a liar.  

Why would the church comment about this and an article be published in the Deseret News regarding this if they believed this was all a lie?

 

[Jeanne]

Just now, smac97 said:

And yet, somehow, he is culpable for those struggles?  That seems to be the gravamen of the article in the OP.

Thanks,

-Smac

No!  No more culpable than I am.  These kids are all around us..the essay in my opinion didn't blame you or me..It is simply saying to be aware and help.  You guys have made so much out of this than what it is.  We help eachother.  I didn't know my stepson was gay...it kept him away from his dying Dad because he was scared..I found out after in a very heartfelt long letter.  Do I feel somewhat responsible..I do..even if it is not me to blame.

[Mystery Meat]

4 minutes ago, ALarson said:

And so, you don't care?  They are in someone's ward, Stake and State.  And, there ARE kids in your ward, Stake and State who are struggling with this issue (quietly and privately most likely). Just because it hasn't personally touched your life yet, doesn't mean it's not happening or not something you should be concerned about.

I've now read posts (on other forums) from members of the church who personally know Wendy Montgomery (fellow ward members) who state that she is active, has integrity and would not lie about these numbers.  I don't understand why so many immediately call her a liar.  

Why would the church comment about this and an article be published in the Deseret News regarding this if they believed this was all a lie?

 

Because the government entity that tracks suicide numbers for the state of Utah directly contradicted her cited numbers. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

But we don't really know if Dragon Mama is inaccurate, or just plain sloppy, feeling emotionally charged, or is purposefully lying... so I am going to fall short of calling her despicable. 

Montgomery reported that parents or siblings have directly contacted her and told her their LGBT child/sibling committed suicide since November.  I can't remember if she claims they told her the policy was the trigger or if that was her assumption given it would be a huge increase over past years.  I have not come across anything that said she verified the claims through outside sources.  If not, it may be that she is accurate in her reporting but sloppy in not checking claims because others are lying to her.  

I hope that if she has not verifies them, she will now.  Good numbers and detailed research on triggers are needed to help provide support to prevent suicides.  Upping fear through exaggerated numbers might actually contribute to more deaths.  For example, I know one family many years ago who chose to step away from the Church thinking that such support would help their son and daughter, but it is possible that by not attenpting to help resolve conflicts within the religious structure they made it more difficult, not less ( the study conclusion posted by Nevo would suggest this as a possibility).  I was close to the family and there were no reports from them or others (one was best friends with my kid) of mistreatment by church members.  Prejudice levels of others were assumed as opposed to resulting from actual experience.  Not saying they were wrong, just that actions were primarily based on assumptions that might have been wrong.

[smac97]

2 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

No!  No more culpable than I am.  These kids are all around us..the essay in my opinion didn't blame you or me..

"Here’s the newsflash: every one of us has culpability for these deaths if we are not actively, openly doing all we can to reduce them."

Sounds kinda sorta blame-ish to me.

Quote

It is simply saying to be aware and help.  You guys have made so much out of this than what it is.  We help eachother.  I didn't know my stepson was gay...it kept him away from his dying Dad because he was scared..I found out after in a very heartfelt long letter.  Do I feel somewhat responsible..I do..even if it is not me to blame.

I am all for helping teens.  But come on.  Numerous different people in this thread have read the article in the OP and come away with an opinion that it has an agenda other that encouraging us to do things we already know we should be doing (and many of us already are doing).  

Thanks,

-Smac

[ALarson]

Just now, Mystery Meat said:

Because the government entity that tracks suicide numbers for the state of Utah directly contradicted her cited numbers. 

And maybe family members did not want the deaths to be reported as suicides, even though they know they were suicides.  There are many variables here and I just think that immediately calling someone a liar is wrong.

I too would like to get more information, but I wish more would talk Calm's approach rather than immediately branding someone a liar.  That is getting us no where in this discussion which should be about how to help those more who are in pain and struggling to the point of thinking about taking their own lives.  There is certainly enough evidence to know this is happening.

[salgare]

Seeing how the Corporate Church has put the responsibility on the Member Church to deal with their agenda/policy, perhaps we could view the article like the catalyst theory of the BoA, ignoring the author, mama, agendas etc and seeing a pure message out of the faulted words.

[Danzo]

4 minutes ago, ALarson said:

And so, you don't care?  They are in someone's ward, Stake and State.  And, there ARE kids in your ward, Stake and State who are struggling with this issue (quietly and privately most likely). Just because it hasn't personally touched your life yet, doesn't mean it's not happening or not something you should be concerned about.

I've now read posts (on other forums) from members of the church who personally know Wendy Montgomery (fellow ward members) who state that she is active, has integrity and would not lie about these numbers.  I don't understand why so many immediately call her a liar.  

Why would the church comment about this and an article be published in the Deseret News regarding this if they believed this was all a lie?

 

How do you explain her numbers?

Is the state Lying?

Maybe the state has an agenda to not report suicides?

Maybe Wendy is a professional data analyst and the state people are just hacks?

Maybe the state doesn't verify any of the information and doesn't rely on medical examiners and police departments, but Wendy does?

Are you at least a bit concern that tax dollars are used to support these state hacks, with an agenda who's data is off by an order of magnitude?

If I lived in Utah I would  want the governor to appoint a special commission, preferably headed by Wendy (who is obviously an expert at this) to investigate the agency.  How can we trust our state agencies if they cannot even count the number of deaths accurately!

 

[Mystery Meat]

5 minutes ago, ALarson said:

And maybe family members did not want the deaths to be reported as suicides, even though they know they were suicides.  There are many variables here and I just think that immediately calling someone a liar is wrong.

I too would like to get more information, but I wish more would talk Calm's approach rather than immediately branding someone a liar.  That is getting us no where in this discussion which should be about how to help those more who are in pain and struggling to the point of thinking about taking their own lives.  There is certainly enough evidence to know this is happening.

But that's not how it works. The Health Department looks into and investigates every violent death. How would a family avoid reporting a suicide as a violent death (which they are by definition)?

In other words, this isn't a matter of parents not reporting the cause of death because they want privacy. Parent finds child dead (shutter at the very thought) calls 911; first responders investigate; report violent death; Health Department investigates; etc.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Mystery Meat

[Danzo]

4 minutes ago, ALarson said:

And maybe family members did not want the deaths to be reported as suicides, even though they know they were suicides.  There are many variables here and I just think that immediately calling someone a liar is wrong.

I too would like to get more information, but I wish more would talk Calm's approach rather than immediately branding someone a liar.  That is getting us no where in this discussion which should be about how to help those more who are in pain and struggling to the point of thinking about taking their own lives.  There is certainly enough evidence to know this is happening.

Maybe in Utah it is different, but in my state family memmbers don't get to choose how to report cause of death, especially for young, otherwise healthy people that had a violent death, or overdose.

[ALarson]

5 minutes ago, Danzo said:

How do you explain her numbers?

Is the state Lying?

Maybe the state has an agenda to not report suicides?

Maybe Wendy is a professional data analyst and the state people are just hacks?

Maybe the state doesn't verify any of the information and doesn't rely on medical examiners and police departments, but Wendy does?

Are you at least a bit concern that tax dollars are used to support these state hacks, with an agenda who's data is off by an order of magnitude?

If I lived in Utah I would  want the governor to appoint a special commission, preferably headed by Wendy (who is obviously an expert at this) to investigate the agency.  How can we trust our state agencies if they cannot even count the number of deaths accurately!

 

Yes, a lot of maybe's.  So let's not label someone a liar here.  Obviously the church leaders took her reports seriously enough to write a response and have it published.  They are concerned for these youth and their families.  How about you follow their example and stop attacking Wendy Montgomery, but put your energy into finding a solution and offering some empathy and understanding for those who are in pain over this?

Edited January 29, 2016 by ALarson
spelling correction

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, ALarson said:

 

I've now read posts (on other forums) from members of the church who personally know Wendy Montgomery (fellow ward members) who state that she is active, has integrity and would not lie about these numbers.  I don't understand why so many immediately call her a liar.  

She may not be lying, others may be lying to her.

The article included a lot of good educational information.  Much more details than just reporting a response to the numbers.  It was an opportunity to educate, get reliable facts, experiences and suggestions for support out to the public and they were quite successful, imo.

It was an intellgent and wise response, imo, both for what it provided in help and for public positioning...being an example of appropriate responses, avoiding confrontation while basing behaviour on realistic, accurate information.  

It was the Trib that spent more time with actual news.  With the other reports in detail about the discrepancy in numbers, the simple statement in DN about not being able to verify the claim was sufficient.  More extensive analysis would have distracted from what was to me the main purpose of the article, to educate about suicide.

[salgare]

41 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I am happy to assume she has some good motives.  But I think she's misguided in some pretty serious ways, not the least of which is the notion that fabricating statistics about teen suicides is a healthy or appropriate thing to do.  

Thanks,

-Smac

Maybe there are more important issues underlying all of this?

[ALarson]

4 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Maybe in Utah it is different, but in my state family memmbers don't get to choose how to report cause of death, especially for young, otherwise healthy people that had a violent death, or overdose.

There are ways that family members can avoid having it reported as a suicide.  I personally know of 2 instances where the doctors put down that it was an accidental death (when the parents knew it was suicide because notes were left and other attempts had been made).  One drove their car into a center divide on the freeway and the other took pills mixing it with alcohol.  Now, there are suicides that are obviously suicides, but many are not obvious.  That's all I'm saying here.  

[Avatar4321]

3 hours ago, consiglieri said:

I agree with you, Storm Rider.

The Church pointing the finger of accusation at the local members is offensive.

And detestable.

cfr

[ALarson]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

She may not be lying, others may be lying to her.

This is also a possibility.  Although I would hope that no parent would lie about their child's suicide.  But, maybe she heard about some of them 2nd or 3rd hand (or more).  Again, I would like more information and details before I label someone a liar.

I do wish more here would take your approach.  I also think the approach of the church leaders are an example of how we should be discussing this.  How can we help those in pain and who are struggling with this issue?  

 

Edited January 29, 2016 by ALarson

[smac97]

1 minute ago, salgare said:

Maybe there are more important issues underlying all of this?

Indeed.  But that does not preclude analysis and assessment of this highly dubious statistic.

Society is harmed by falsehoods like this, just as it is when people make false claims about rape, or child abuse, or racial hostility, and so on.  I don't think we should excuse or look the other way from such behavior by waving our hands and saying "Maybe there are more important issues [than false rape claims, or false child abuse claims, or racebaiting, or false allegations intended to vilify a religious minority]."

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

12 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Yes, a lot of maybe's.  So let's not label someone a liar here.  

I appreciate your desire to refrain from making a risible accusation against Wendy Montgomery.

Too bad her compatriots lack the same desire to refrain from making risible accusations against . . . well, you know.

Thanks,

-Smac