Reaching out to our Youth in Post-Policy Mormonism

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, consiglieri said:

This is not a laughing situation.

Playing dumb is not appropriate.

 

His remark is no more flippant than your own:
 

Quote

 

Kids not killing themselves versus kids killing themselves.

Which do you think is causing the most harm?

 

 

Edited January 30, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[busybee]

On 29/01/2016 at 4:35 PM, rockpond said:

I do expect it to be critically analyzed and discussed.  Of course.  

And while the evidence cannot be substantiated, for reasons that have been discussed, not everyone here agrees with the conclusion that it is not credible. 

I'm pretty convinced that the numbers supplied by the Dept. of Health would be accurate. Suicide is considered death by unnatural cause and, as such, would be a a police matter. Suicides don't slide by without being noticed. Someone has to sign and file a death certificate for each death. Cause of death has to be noted for each death. It is from these certificates that the Dept. would compile their statistics. Unless you think they may be lying....?

[california boy]

10 hours ago, smac97 said:

No, you didn't.  I asked: "What part of the CHI teaches Latter-day Saints 'to hate gay people, or to shun them, or to abandon them, or to do anything other than treat them with love and kindness and respect and compassion?'"  

You have provided no quotes, no instruction, nothing in the CHI that even approximates counsel to the Saints that they are "to hate gay people, or to shun them, or to abandon them, or to do anything other than treat them with love and kindness and respect and compassion."

Asked and not answered.  Which is what I expected.  

The CHI, of course, has minimal "counsel" to the Saints.  It is a policies and procedures manual for leaders of the Church.  For such counsel a reasonable person would turn to the Church's magazines and manuals.  So let's explore a bit, shall we?  What counsel are the General Authorities giving to the Saints relative to people with same-sex attraction?

Well, there's this 1995 Ensign article by Elder Oaks:

So regarding how Latter-day Saints should treat and interact with people with same-sex attraction, the counsel from Elder Oaks, an apostle, in an article published in the Church's magazine designed to disseminate instructions to the Saints, is to "Love one another," to "be kinder with one another, more gentle and forgiving," to be "more prompt to help," to "extend the hand of friendship and resist the hand of retribution," to "love one another with genuine compassion," to use the "powerful instruments" of "kindness, compassion, and love," to condemn "so-called 'gay bashing'—physical or verbal attacks," to "reach out with love and understanding to those struggling with these issues," to show "Christlike love," to "reach out with kindness and comfort to the afflicted, ministering to their needs and assisting them with their problems," to "show forth love and to extend help and understanding," to not "cast out" such persons, to "love" and "help" them, to invite them be in the Church of Jesus Christ, as "of course there is" a place for them, to provide "love and encouragement," to such persons, and to help "bear one another's burdens."

These, m'boy, are "verbatim quotes."  This is just one of many examples of the consistent counsel that the Brethren have given to the Saints.  In my view, no reasonable or fair-minded person could read such things and construe them as teaching the Latter-day Saints to hate gay people, or to shun them, or to abandon them, and so on.

Let us now turn to the Eternal Marriage Student Manual.  Some excerpts:

Here are some 2009 remarks by Elder Bruce C. Hafen (addressing a conference held by Evergreen International):

I invite readers of this post to review the linked content above in more detail.  Some may find portions of what is said disputable.  Some may disagree with opinions and sentiments.  But what I think nobody will find, is counsel from the leaders of the LDS Church for church members to hate gay people, or to shun them, or to abandon them, or to do anything other than treat them with love and kindness and respect and compassion.

Thanks,

-Smac

A very nice post.  I gave you a rep point.   I wish it had come earlier in the thread.  Perhaps the tone of this discussion would have been totally different.

I do have a couple of questions I would love to have you respond to.

1.  Do you think that church leaders, while expressing reaching out to gays, has also created an us vs them type culture with their support of prop 8 and the latest church policy?

2.  Do you have a strong us vs them attitude towards gays?

3. How do you think a gay Mormon youth reacts/enternalizes this us vs them attitude.

[busybee]

On 29/01/2016 at 3:46 PM, Danzo said:

I don't follow. This is "detestable"?

Please don't feed the Trolls

[ALarson]

3 minutes ago, busybee said:

I'm pretty convinced that the numbers supplied by the Dept. of Health would be accurate. Suicide is considered death by unnatural cause and, as such, would be a a police matter. Suicides don't slide by without being noticed. Someone has to sign and file a death certificate for each death. Cause of death has to be noted for each death. It is from these certificates that the Dept. would compile their statistics. Unless you think they may be lying....?

There are many reasons that deaths are not reported as suicides (read through the thread).  I personally know of 2 suicides that were recorded as "accidental deaths".

[Meadowchik]

Regarding suicide and LGBT suicide connected to the LDS Church, it should be noted that sometimes part of the wider culture can itself abandon certain safeties that previously dovetailed well with the Church teachings and culture, resulting in vulnerability for those who no longer have that joint support.  "Where much is given, much is required," is very much a part of LDS culture, for example. And so the Church teachings intended for those who've been given much (one way or another) can fall more heavily on the shoulders of those without the same privilege but who are still part of the same culture. 

I think it is safe to say, given first-hand testimony I've heard from GLBT Mormons, that this is the case for some. The wider world has its GLBT version of the LDS culture that the LDS culture has never accepted. It's as if the world is moving one way and the Church another, relatively speaking. And this strains individuals and their families and loved ones.

The Gospel, however, that is another thing entirely. I know it is possible for a Mormon GLBT person to find an abundant source of strength and comfort in the restored Gospel of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, I witness it through such a person's testimonies.  Yet, sometimes the space between us and that next lesson, grace, and comfort, can be long and large, for whatever reason.   Maybe we're stumbling, maybe there are other experiences we're meant to have first, and that space can feel very desolate.  And none of us want to lose anyone while they are traversing those long and large spaces.  Almost all of us experience them, at some time or another.  Those of us who fit the Mormon cultural mold may find that added benefit of belonging during the trips in those spaces. Others may find comfort in other ways. But it is true, just like the cliché, that some are more vulnerable to falling through the cracks.

When he was a teen, my brother left a worthiness interview devastated.  He'd been yelled at and cried to our father that he didn't think he could handle church, he felt like it was killing him.  My dad expressed that the well-being of my brother was utmost importance compared to Church attendance or affiliation. My brother never looked back and eventually had his own family, is an awesome and honorable husband and father. 

As the inevitable entropy that is life continues, we as Latter-Day Saints have the challenge to look for a better ground than was available to my brother and many others.  I think that the majority if not all of this work will be accomplished by simply us living the core of the Gospel better:  relying on the Love of God that is boundless as a measure of our personal self-worth, constantly going back to Christ's atonement and teachings as our safety and our pattern to follow in our dealings with each other. I have the feeling that, rather than solutions being easily identifiable as partisan and trite, they will have to be more specific for every given situation.  They'll have to be found through the Spirit and powered through the Spirit on millions of individual basises, one drop at a time, the collective Church together becoming more one and more purified.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Meadowchik

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, ALarson said:

There are many reasons that deaths are not reported as suicides (read through the thread).  I personally know of 2 suicides that were recorded as "accidental deaths".

It can be done..and more often than not..for life insurance policies for remaining family.

[ALarson]

1 minute ago, Jeanne said:

It can be done..and more often than not..for life insurance policies for remaining family.

This and just for privacy reasons of the family.  Of course, some suicides are obvious and reported as such.  Others can be determined to be accidental deaths.

[Damien the Leper]

38 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I've been well, all-in-all. I hope you are well as well.

I am and I'm glad you're well. 

[busybee]

23 hours ago, Jeanne said:

And you can tell..in the whole stake..which ones a gay and which ones are not?  You don't know.  You just don't know who is in your pews that are struggling with anything.

And that's all you got from this.... 

[busybee]

23 hours ago, ALarson said:

And maybe family members did not want the deaths to be reported as suicides, even though they know they were suicides.  There are many variables here and I just think that immediately calling someone a liar is wrong.

I too would like to get more information, but I wish more would talk Calm's approach rather than immediately branding someone a liar.  That is getting us no where in this discussion which should be about how to help those more who are in pain and struggling to the point of thinking about taking their own lives.  There is certainly enough evidence to know this is happening.

In my experience, the family cannot ask for an unnatural death to go unreported. A suicide would fall into that category.

[ALarson]

6 minutes ago, busybee said:

In my experience, the family cannot ask for an unnatural death to go unreported. A suicide would fall into that category.

There are many suicides that can also appear to be "accidental deaths".  Drug overdoses, etc.  One of those I am personally aware of was where the person drove their car into a freeway divider. The family knew it was suicide (there was a note left), but the police ruled it an accident and that's what was put on the death certificate.  

[Teancum]

11 hours ago, smac97 said:

No, you didn't.  I asked: "What part of the CHI teaches Latter-day Saints 'to hate gay people, or to shun them, or to abandon them, or to do anything other than treat them with love and kindness and respect and compassion?'"  

You have provided no quotes, no instruction, nothing in the CHI that even approximates counsel to the Saints that they are "to hate gay people, or to shun them, or to abandon them, or to do anything other than treat them with love and kindness and respect and compassion."

Asked and not answered.  Which is what I expected.  

The CHI, of course, has minimal "counsel" to the Saints.  It is a policies and procedures manual for leaders of the Church.  For such counsel a reasonable person would turn to the Church's magazines and manuals.  So let's explore a bit, shall we?  What counsel are the General Authorities giving to the Saints relative to people with same-sex attraction?

Well, there's this 1995 Ensign article by Elder Oaks:

So regarding how Latter-day Saints should treat and interact with people with same-sex attraction, the counsel from Elder Oaks, an apostle, in an article published in the Church's magazine designed to disseminate instructions to the Saints, is to "Love one another," to "be kinder with one another, more gentle and forgiving," to be "more prompt to help," to "extend the hand of friendship and resist the hand of retribution," to "love one another with genuine compassion," to use the "powerful instruments" of "kindness, compassion, and love," to condemn "so-called 'gay bashing'—physical or verbal attacks," to "reach out with love and understanding to those struggling with these issues," to show "Christlike love," to "reach out with kindness and comfort to the afflicted, ministering to their needs and assisting them with their problems," to "show forth love and to extend help and understanding," to not "cast out" such persons, to "love" and "help" them, to invite them be in the Church of Jesus Christ, as "of course there is" a place for them, to provide "love and encouragement," to such persons, and to help "bear one another's burdens."

These, m'boy, are "verbatim quotes."  This is just one of many examples of the consistent counsel that the Brethren have given to the Saints.  In my view, no reasonable or fair-minded person could read such things and construe them as teaching the Latter-day Saints to hate gay people, or to shun them, or to abandon them, and so on.

Let us now turn to the Eternal Marriage Student Manual.  Some excerpts:

Here are some 2009 remarks by Elder Bruce C. Hafen (addressing a conference held by Evergreen International):

I invite readers of this post to review the linked content above in more detail.  Some may find portions of what is said disputable.  Some may disagree with opinions and sentiments.  But what I think nobody will find, is counsel from the leaders of the LDS Church for church members to hate gay people, or to shun them, or to abandon them, or to do anything other than treat them with love and kindness and respect and compassion.

Thanks,

-Smac

Those are all fine things Smac.

Of course in your ever longing attempt at sophistry you are well aware I have never argued that the church teaches out right to hate or shun gay persons.  Do you feel clever in your attempts to protect the church from its own bad policies?

So sure the church teaches that we should love everyone. Too bad the policy branding those who enter into same sex marriage undermines those wonderful teachings above.   Its sort of tough to feel loved by an organization that will automatically kick you out if you act on your inborn sexual tendencies.  We don't do that for heterosexual fornicators or adulterers now do we. Might happen but it is not automatic is it.  Not branding them apostates are we?  Not limiting their children's participation are we?

Really Smac if I say I love you but get the hell out and you and your family are not welcome here anymore then do you feel loved? 

A reasonable person without an agenda to defend their a priori dogmatic beliefs and those who promulgate them would understand this.

 

Edited January 30, 2016 by Teancum

[consiglieri]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

You do not know that Wendy Montgomery lied.  She is an active member of the church and those who know her have posted that she has integrity and would never lie about this.  As Calm and others have pointed out, maybe she was lied to by some or there are many other variables that would cause the numbers to not match up. It's not right to call her a liar.  

 

Has anybody suggested the possibility Wendy was inadvertently counting multiple reports of the same suicide?

[consiglieri]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

So even though the Church leaders have been at pains to teach there people to show love and compassion to those with same-sex attraction -- especially family members -- you just know in your gut that they don't mean what they say.

This doesn't strike me as rational. In fact it seems characteristic of a mob mentality.

It isn't about what I know in my gut, Scott.

It is about what the families of gay children know on the ground.

The Church speaks out of both sides of its mouth.  The new policy speaks louder than anything.

But the one message the Church drives home is that being gay is inferior to, and less worthy than, being straight.

Or do you want to dispute that obvious fact, too?

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

So even though the Church leaders have been at pains to teach there people to show love and compassion to those with same-sex attraction -- especially family members -- you just know in your gut that they don't mean what they say.

This doesn't strike me as rational. In fact it seems characteristic of a mob mentality.

I love you but leave and don't bring your kids around either.  Your point strikes me as the having nothing rational about it.

[consiglieri]

56 minutes ago, busybee said:

Please don't feed the Trolls

Trolls are the ugly monsters who devour hapless young people walking over bridges.

Sometimes those young people are gay . . .

[rpn]

For those who missed the first posting of the link of what current data says.

http://virtuoussociety.com/2015/01/26/re-examining-gay-mormon-youth-and-suicide-what-does-the-data-say/

And the double-bind article may or may not reflect individual's hearing of what prophets say.   But there could be a whole lot more support among LGBT advocates for reading it not in a way that demeans or divides or discourages (which the article suggests as inevitable because of the words), but in the way that reflect loving and all knowing Heavenly Parents and Savior's wishes for all their children, whom They know intimately in each moment and love unconditionally, to return to them with honor, no matter what earthly experiences they undergo.

[busybee]

2 hours ago, ALarson said:

You do not know that Wendy Montgomery lied.  She is an active member of the church and those who know her have posted that she has integrity and would never lie about this.  As Calm and others have pointed out, maybe she was lied to by some or there are many other variables that would cause the numbers to not match up. It's not right to call her a liar.  

 

It's not right to use unverified statistics to make a point. Especially when it is about something as sensitive as teen suicide.

Edited January 30, 2016 by busybee

[busybee]

48 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

Trolls are the ugly monsters who devour hapless young people walking over bridges.

Sometimes those young people are gay . . .

You would know.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

calmoriah raises a good question: Has there been a rash of supposedly accidental deaths among teens in Utah in the last two months that even approaches the number of suicide deaths -- for any reason -- that are being claimed? Does the number  even exceed the norm?

Furthermore, news organizations do not ordinarily report suicides. On the other hand they are very much apt to report fatal accidents, especially those involving youth. If, over a two-month period, there had been a spike in the accidental deaths of teens, the news media would be all over it by now. Government officials and the public would be calling for investigations. Suicide would be suspected as a factor, even if that were not the obvious cause in each and every instance. One would not have to rely on agenda-driven bloggers to hear about it.

Finally, consider the typical means employed to kill oneself: gunshot, hanging, asphyxiation, poisoning, stepping in front of a train or other vehicle, jumping from a building or bridge. It's not all that easy to accomplish and make it look like something other than an obvious suicide -- especially for a desperate and irrational youth acting alone.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

I love you but leave and don't bring your kids around either.  Your point strikes me as the having nothing rational about it.

That's neither an accurate nor a just characterization.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, consiglieri said:

Has anybody suggested the possibility Wendy was inadvertently counting multiple reports of the same suicide?

I hadn't suggested it, but it did occur to me -- and it would work against the supposition that there is an unusual spike in the number of incidents with the Church policy being the root cause.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Those are all fine things Smac.

Of course in your ever longing attempt at sophistry you are well aware I have never argued that the church teaches out right to hate or shun gay persons. 

 

You're not getting the point. The Church does not teach anyone "to hate or shun gay persons" -- "outright" or otherwise.

[Scott Lloyd]

13 hours ago, sunstoned said:

I teach at a public university in Utah.  I am also associated with that university's multi-cultural center which includes the LGBTQ organization.  From my own experience and my own observations I know that the latest church policy has deeply impacted many LDS LGBTQ students.  Several of which are BIC and RMs.  Working with some of these students over the last couple of months and hearing their stories has been heartbreaking.

 

 

There is a lot of anger over the new policy, particularly among those who were holding out hope that the Church was on a path toward declaring that which is sinful (homosexual behavior) as being non-sinful; that's not news.

The question is whether the anger and bitterness is well-placed. It's not.