busybee Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 17 minutes ago, Teancum said: It's too bad the leaders just tried to slide it quietly into a handbook few have access to. The handbook is available to all who wish to see it through their bishops or branch presidents. But you knew that.
Teancum Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 11 minutes ago, busybee said: The handbook is available to all who wish to see it through their bishops or branch presidents. But you knew that. If anyone can see it why not make it available to all members. And no some bishops don't readily share it with whoever asks.
Danzo Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 46 minutes ago, Teancum said: If anyone can see it why not make it available to all members. And no some bishops don't readily share it with whoever asks. Is that you experience? Have you been denied or denied someone from viewing the handbook?
Calm Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 2 hours ago, ALarson said: It's too bad that it wasn't announced prior to John Dehlin seeing it and releasing its content. It was a pityhe didn't wait for a couple of weeks and see how it was going to play out. Too eager to be first with the inside knowledge, imo. Unfortunately if it hadn't been him, likely there would be another. Doesn't excuse him, especially given the twist he put on it to attempt to ensure people saw it as hurtful, etc. The leadership will need to change the way they approach things given the eagerness of people to show how clever they are. 2
california boy Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 3 hours ago, Avatar4321 said: You needed a new revelation to know same sex marriage was wrong? I needed A revelation to know the will of God. I already knew the opinion of church leaders. This is not some minor issue that has not been discussed and speculated about for some time. We still haven't heard the Prophet of God declare it was a revelation. The ONLY "official announcement" came in a talk at a youth fireside for heavens sake. Really? Is this how the church announces a revelation from God on such an important issue? We are talking about the eternal promise of gay couples here, not how many ear rings should be allowed. Is there that amount of disregard for gay members that it doesn't deserve a comment from the Prophet of God??????? This just makes me move farther away from this church. There is no place for me there. Perhaps there never was. I am sorry I was not born straight like the rest of you and could just respond with some flippant answer like most of you here. Perhaps if there was a revelation from God telling you that your marriage was an abomination to God you might want something more than a updated handbook as the way of informing you. 1
busybee Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 50 minutes ago, Teancum said: If anyone can see it why not make it available to all members. Ask the prophet. I don't know. All I know is I have enough to concentrate on with studying the scriptures and working on my own personal progress. I'm quite happy to have those who are charged with administrating the affairs of the Lord's Church have the handbook which contains all the information they need to do so effectively.
Calm Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, busybee said: As LDS believe that the Lord leads His church through the Prophet, it can be safely assumed by the members that all that is contained in the handbook was received by revelation. These revelations are specifically for administering the affairs of the church. These policies are not general revelations that are pertinent to all members and so there is no need to make an announcement. Faithful LDS who sustain the First Presidency and Quorum of the 12 assume that they are leading the Church by a process of continued revelation. I do not at this point believe all policies in the Handbook are created through revelation. There is a scripture about it being a slothful servant that is required to be commanded in all things. I do believe that revelation was probably sought out in each case as leaders, parents, and individuals should do in all things (I see prayers asking to be guided in general being included here), but I also believe that many times the Lord allows to explore and experiment on our own in our stewardships so that we and those we interact and influence can progress. For example, iirc in the past at least there was a policy not to allow straw to be brought inside the buildings for health reasons (think mice hiding out in bales). I see that as unlikely resulting from revelation. Edited January 31, 2016 by Calm 2
california boy Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 2 hours ago, busybee said: As LDS believe that the Lord leads His church through the Prophet, it can be safely assumed by the members that all that is contained in the handbook was received by revelation. These revelations are specifically for administering the affairs of the church. These policies are not general revelations that are pertinent to all members and so there is no need to make an announcement. Faithful LDS who sustain the First Presidency and Quorum of the 12 assume that they are leading the Church by a process of continued revelation. So minor tweaking of bureaucracy on how the church functions is ALL done by direct revelation from God, yet it took a hundred years to get a revelation from God on a ban of blacks from obtaining the blessings of the temple. You really believe that??? Unbelievable. 2
california boy Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 2 hours ago, rodheadlee said: Speak for yourself. It was already abundantly clear to me via the Proclamation of the Family. The Prophet and Apostles reveal the Word of the Lord quite frequently but many refuse to listen. Yet even that Proclamation to the World has not been declared a revelation. Perhaps they should have slipped it into the handbook and then had it announced at a youth fireside. THEN it would be a revelation.
Calm Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 7 minutes ago, california boy said: Perhaps if there was a revelation from God telling you that your marriage was an abomination to God you might want something more than a updated handbook as the way of informing you. I think I would need something direct from the Lord to satisfy me. 2
Teancum Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Danzo said: Is that you experience? Have you been denied or denied someone from viewing the handbook? I had one for years and years due to my callings. So I never had to ask for one. When anyone asked me to see it I let them. But then I am just a benevolent fellow. ;-) i don't have one now but my guess is my bishop or SP would have no problem sharing it. Edited January 31, 2016 by Teancum
Teancum Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 23 minutes ago, busybee said: Ask the prophet. I don't know. All I know is I have enough to concentrate on with studying the scriptures and working on my own personal progress. I'm quite happy to have those who are charged with administrating the affairs of the Lord's Church have the handbook which contains all the information they need to do so effectively. So because you are a ok with not having general access to it everyone else should be? Got it!
busybee Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 8 minutes ago, Teancum said: So because you are a ok with not having general access to it everyone else should be? Got it! I didn't say everyone should feel the same way I do. I was speaking for myself.Please don't put words in my mouth.
Avatar4321 Posted February 1, 2016 Posted February 1, 2016 4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Ours dealt in great measure with hearkening to the will of God as revealed through His servants. Another good topic concerning this thread
Avatar4321 Posted February 1, 2016 Posted February 1, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, Teancum said: Why would God create humans,who we teach are His children, in such a way that they are his enemy? We weren't created His enemies. We are as consequence of the Fall Edited February 1, 2016 by Avatar4321 1
Teancum Posted February 1, 2016 Posted February 1, 2016 29 minutes ago, busybee said: I didn't say everyone should feel the same way I do. I was speaking for myself.Please don't put words in my mouth. Your post was ozzing with implication.
Teancum Posted February 1, 2016 Posted February 1, 2016 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: We weren't created His ene ies. We are as consequence of the Fall According to LDS doctrine tha fall is part of the plan and the human race wpuld not ex us without it. Thus God sent us to an intentionally fallen world and created us as His enemies. Edited February 1, 2016 by Teancum
CV75 Posted February 1, 2016 Posted February 1, 2016 1 hour ago, california boy said: Is this how the church announces a revelation from God on such an important issue? The policies are for the use of responsible leaders ministering to members in specific instances, not for general membership. One policy formalizes same-sex marriage as apostasy, but leaders could have taken disciplinary action for such before; there were just enough questions in light of the new laws that it needed to be spelled out. The other policy protects children dependent on same-sex couples from entering a religious contract that conflicts with the apostate conditions in the home which conflict with the basic unit of the kingdom (the family according to the LDS definition of marriage). These policies were not announcements and so went unannounced except to the intended audience (leaders), but they are nonetheless formal and official. The revelations for them occurred in the manner Elder Nelson described, and while he was explaining the process of revelation for policy-making, he was not making a formal, official, general announcement. Other revelations received by leadership are for decision-making, some are for doctrines, some for guidance, and there are other purposes as well. 2
california boy Posted February 1, 2016 Posted February 1, 2016 (edited) Quote The policies are for the use of responsible leaders ministering to members in specific instances, not for general membership. One policy formalizes same-sex marriage as apostasy, but leaders could have taken disciplinary action for such before; there were just enough questions in light of the new laws that it needed to be spelled out. The other policy protects children dependent on same-sex couples from entering a religious contract that conflicts with the apostate conditions in the home which conflict with the basic unit of the kingdom (the family according to the LDS definition of marriage). These policies were not announcements and so went unannounced except to the intended audience (leaders), but they are nonetheless formal and official. The revelations for them occurred in the manner Elder Nelson described, and while he was explaining the process of revelation for policy-making, he was not making a formal, official, general announcement. Other revelations received by leadership are for decision-making, some are for doctrines, some for guidance, and there are other purposes as well. 0 This issue of what is a policy and what is a revelation from God has been discussed a lot. Members use the term policy when things are changeable at a later date. They use the term revelation from God for things that come directly from Him and is not just the opinion of the prophet or apostles. So what is this? A policy decision or a revelation that every gay married couple is an abomination and they should be branded as apostates and their children should not be allowed to be baptized until they can break free of their parents and denounce them as sinners and apostates? Edited February 1, 2016 by california boy
Teancum Posted February 1, 2016 Posted February 1, 2016 21 minutes ago, CV75 said: The policies are for the use of responsible leaders ministering to members in specific instances, not for general membership. One policy formalizes same-sex marriage as apostasy, but leaders could have taken disciplinary action for such before; there were just enough questions in light of the new laws that it needed to be spelled out. The other policy protects children dependent on same-sex couples from entering a religious contract that conflicts with the apostate conditions in the home which conflict with the basic unit of the kingdom (the family according to the LDS definition of marriage). These policies were not announcements and so went unannounced except to the intended audience (leaders), but they are nonetheless formal and official. The revelations for them occurred in the manner Elder Nelson described, and while he was explaining the process of revelation for policy-making, he was not making a formal, official, general announcement. Other revelations received by leadership are for decision-making, some are for doctrines, some for guidance, and there are other purposes as well. I have a question for you. If the restriction on ordinances for children of same sex unions is allegedly to protect them can such children attend church, participate in primary, young men and young women activities, Sunday school and so on?
Scott Lloyd Posted February 1, 2016 Posted February 1, 2016 3 hours ago, Teancum said: Ours dealt with proper sabbath day activities. Ours did as well, but as I said, it dealt in great measure with hearkening to the will of God as revealed through His servants.\ Discussion ensued regarding the prophetic nature of the family proclamation being published when it was, long before most people could have foreseen how applicable it would be today. I thought about this board during the discussion, particularly when I made a comment about how it matters little whether something is labeled as "revelation" or "a commandment" or "counsel"; that if it comes from God, it ought to be followed regardless of what one chooses to call it. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted February 1, 2016 Posted February 1, 2016 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Teancum said: I have a question for you. If the restriction on ordinances for children of same sex unions is allegedly to protect them can such children attend church, participate in primary, young men and young women activities, Sunday school and so on? Sure. Why not? Delaying their eligibility for baptism protects them from making and being bound by covenants under circumstances that render it extremely difficult to impossible to keep them. Edited February 1, 2016 by Scott Lloyd 2
Popular Post smac97 Posted February 1, 2016 Popular Post Posted February 1, 2016 (edited) 20 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Here's a letter a gay member of the church wrote to the apostles, but didn't send. It's full of subjectiveness, but interesting to see a gay man's perspective. http://snapshotsofchad.com/2016/01/29/dear-mormon-leaders/ Oh, lovely (emphasis added): Quote Elder Nelson or Elder Oaks or President Monson ... there is blood on your hands. Every time a Mormon mother throws out her lesbian teenage daughter into the streets, it is on your hands. Every time a young transgender boy cries himself to sleep, praying for God to make him a girl inside, it is on your hands. Every time a gay man takes a woman to the temple, promising to love her forever yet knowing he can’t, it’s on your hands. Every time a council of men gathers to excommunicate a member of their ward for daring to find love in the arms of someone of the same gender, it’s on your hands. And every time a 15 year old child wraps a rope around his neck and hangs himself from a closet rod because he believes God didn’t love him enough, it is on your heads. There is no good faith in such calumnies. There is anger. There is hate. There is willful disregard for the truth and/or gross ignorance. There is venom. It is not "interesting." It is vile. It is bigotry. It is the LDS equivalent of blood libel. And it merits no special protection from criticism because its author is gay. This article no better than anti-semitic falsehoods used to foment hatred against Jews. You should be ashamed for presenting it on this board. -Smac Edited February 1, 2016 by smac97 6
Scott Lloyd Posted February 1, 2016 Posted February 1, 2016 1 minute ago, smac97 said: Oh, lovely: There is no good faith in such calumnies. There is anger. There is hate. There is willful disregard for the truth. It is not interesting. It is vile. And it merits no special protection from criticism because its author is gay. Thanks, -Smac I didn't bother to click on the on the link because I feared it might be something along this line. I see that my apprehensions were right. How could any just or reeasonble individual see anything praiseworthy in such hateful bile?
Popular Post Avatar4321 Posted February 1, 2016 Popular Post Posted February 1, 2016 1 hour ago, california boy said: I needed A revelation to know the will of God. I already knew the opinion of church leaders. This is not some minor issue that has not been discussed and speculated about for some time. We still haven't heard the Prophet of God declare it was a revelation. The ONLY "official announcement" came in a talk at a youth fireside for heavens sake. Really? Is this how the church announces a revelation from God on such an important issue? We are talking about the eternal promise of gay couples here, not how many ear rings should be allowed. Is there that amount of disregard for gay members that it doesn't deserve a comment from the Prophet of God??????? This just makes me move farther away from this church. There is no place for me there. Perhaps there never was. I am sorry I was not born straight like the rest of you and could just respond with some flippant answer like most of you here. Perhaps if there was a revelation from God telling you that your marriage was an abomination to God you might want something more than a updated handbook as the way of informing you. There has never been eternal promises for gay couples. Never. Homosexual behavior has always been contrary the will of God. What the heck do you expect? A Revelation from God with angelic ministry and God himself appearing to the brethren loudly proclaiming "it's not right and I really mean it this time"? Or are you sitting around waiting for God to announce " Look I'm sorry I was completely wrong on that "? Cause that's what it seems you are looking for. And unless you get the answer you want you won't listen to any Revelation the Lord has revealed. I understand how you feel. No one likes being told what they are doing is wrong. I know I sure as heck don't like it. And it's perfectly natural to be angry about it. But being angry isn't going to change Gods will. Or make us happy when we sin. Or change the fact that we aren't happy when we ignore the will of God. That's why Jesus Christ came and atoned for us. So we aren't just acting naturally. But instead we have the power to be born again, forgiven, a new creature, and put off the natural man submitting to the will of God and waiting on Him. God is teaching us how to be Divine when He gives us commandments we aren't inclined to obey. Have you been spiritually born of God? Have you felt His overwhelming love for you? Because that is the Revelation you need. And that only comes personally. 5
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