Reaching out to our Youth in Post-Policy Mormonism

[ALarson]

18 minutes ago, Calm said:

And not even feeling comfortable about fantasizing about a relationship because that could be seen as encouraging inappropriate feelings, lust, etc.

And being told they need to endure to the end, and then crossover and all their problems would be gone.  Homosexuality is left in the mortal realm.  For those that idea appeals to, what does it turn into when life becomes to much bear? It is the one last strand of possibility for a normal life left, for happiness and romantic eternal companion love, all waiting in the life to come.  When one feels trapped in this life and you believe even the worst of the next life is going to be a wonder, makes taking that step intentionally way too easy to contemplate.  Thankfully dying is usually painful, even with pills, you get caught, have second thoughts and fight it...well, enough fear of suffering there that slows it down some.  For me in my own suicidal experience, my son saved my life even though he had no clue as he sat in the other room, a three year old never making a peep, just playing with legos.  I knew I wouldn't really be free if I left him trapped by my decision.

Wow, Calm, this is very poignant and touching.  I'm glad your son was there.

[consiglieri]

4 hours ago, Jeanne said:

I can't because he took his life before the policy.  That being said, he was turned out by family and guilt played a huge part.

I appreciate your sharing that, Jeanne.

I knew things were bad before the policy.

It appears the new policy has only made matters worse.

[Calm]

Quote

Wow, Calm, this is very poignant and touching.  I'm glad your son was there.

I was lucky in comparison to most who experience suicidal thoughts.  Mine were caused by medication and once I stopped taking it, much of the depression lifted.  Still had massive anxiety, but that just caused me to hide in the apartment.  Remarkable what sleep deprivation can cause.

It was nothing, of course, compared to those facing a view that one is going to have to live with what they see as the reality for the rest of their lives.  My first experience with depression caused by medication happened right after I was married, got hit with it on the way home from our honeymoon in fact.  For the next two, three months, I went deeper in numbness, but not suicide thank goodness.  Thought the cause was making a mistake at marriage but had resolved to stick with it since I had made that commitment, that I could grow to love my husband since he was a wonderful man even if I wasn't physically attracted to him (the medication had killed my feelings of love and attraction so much, I didn't think they had been love).  Looking back on that decision, I think what an idiot I would have been if that had been the reality not to have given him the choice no matter how much it would have hurt to begin with.  And I think of all those who feel that way not because of medication, but because that is their reality for life, whether it is because they are LGBT and wondering how to live a Gospel center life but not experiencing the joy that is promised to come from it or another reason.  I don't know how people learn to live with it and be happy.  I felt I was going to have to just turn off my desire for those feelings and just move through life without feeling much.  It also taught me that those feelings might not be the eternal reality of the person, but imposed upon one by influences out of one's control.  I don't deny the possibility that in some cases, that is not true.

(My poor husband, he has been through a lot, very grateful for him putting up with the trauma of being married to me...otoh, I tend to be very understanding and forgiving and not terribly demanding so there is some reward  )

Edited January 29, 2016 by Calm

[consiglieri]

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

 

I am all for helping teens.  But come on.  Numerous different people in this thread have read the article in the OP and come away with an opinion that it has an agenda other that encouraging us to do things we already know we should be doing (and many of us already are doing).  

 

Maybe Church leaders should set the example, Smac.

Maybe the Church needs to institute new policies saying Mormons who bash gays must have a disciplinary hearing.  And maybe Church leaders should start with themselves.

The Church has created a spiritually hostile and abusive environment for LGBT members.

Then when those members start killing themselves because the Church makes them feel inferior and worthless, the Church "spokesman" says the members at the local level need to do a better job of reaching out to them.

The leaders set the tone.

Church leaders can't do what they have done, say the things they have said, institute the policies they have instituted, claim the revelation they have claimed, and then blame it on the local members not being caring enough when LBTQ youth start committing suicide because of the hostile environment the leaders themselves have created.

This is rank hypocrisy at the highest levels of the LDS Church.

Pure and simple.

 

[Storm Rider]

5 hours ago, Valentinus said:

Who cares about the policy?!? If kids are killing themselves then outreach is absolutely necessary. The egos of maintaining policy and dogma as well as pointing fingers of blame at the church and the policy only cause us to not focus on the central issue: kids are killing themselves. No child should ever be given a sliver of reason to believe they lack worth. If we have not learned from the epidemic of September 2010 then we are destined to continue to fail those who take their own lives. I'm not talking about theology or various forms of parenting. This has to stop. One life is one too many. Plain and simple. 

This is honest; this is the beginning place that Montgomery did not choose and Rock, Daniel, etc. have also not done.  They still want to push an agenda while standing over the graves of teen suicides. 

[Scott Lloyd]

6 hours ago, Valentinus said:

Who cares about the policy?!? If kids are killing themselves then outreach is absolutely necessary. The egos of maintaining policy and dogma as well as pointing fingers of blame at the church and the policy only cause us to not focus on the central issue: kids are killing themselves. No child should ever be given a sliver of reason to believe they lack worth. If we have not learned from the epidemic of September 2010 then we are destined to continue to fail those who take their own lives. I'm not talking about theology or various forms of parenting. This has to stop. One life is one too many. Plain and simple. 

 

20 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

This is honest; this is the beginning place that Montgomery did not choose and Rock, Daniel, etc. have also not done.  They still want to push an agenda while standing over the graves of teen suicides. 

As reflected in today's Deseret News piece, Church leaders are setting the example in this respect, notwithstanding consiglieri's unjust villification of them in his post above.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Mystery Meat]

It is interesting to note that I, when asked, provided a few things that I thought members of the Church could do to help the situation, but when I asked Daniel what he thought the LGBT community could do he didn't respond. Also, none of the opponents to the Church's new policy will admit or acknowledge that the reaction to the policy could have had an unnecessary and adverse impact on an LGBT teen.

That tells me a lot.

[Avatar4321]

7 hours ago, consiglieri said:

Well, let's see.

Kids not killing themselves versus kids killing themselves.

Which do you think is causing the most harm?

Where is there a policy of kids killing themselves?

[Calm]

 

Quote

 

Also, none of the opponents to the Church's new policy will admit or acknowledge that the reaction to the policy could have had an unnecessary and adverse impact on an LGBT teen.

 

Going off of memory, but didn't Teancum state it was a possibility?  And Stemelbow said it as well...though I am unclear in my memory as to if he dislikes the policy or is more neutral at this point.  Possibly ALarson as well, I have the impression he isn't happy about the policy but said something that the reaction might have caused problems itself.

There may be others.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Calm

[Avatar4321]

6 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Yeah I agree...because the church should always come before the pain of individuals and families....stop directing your hate speech at the church people...their anti gay policies had nothing to do with these suicides...plus It's been repeated dozen's of times that the new policy was given by revelation to protect these children not hurt them...so there. Geezzz

Except the church has nothing to do with the pain of individual and families. In fact, we have countless members and resources reaching out with comfort and the healing power of the atonement. We have the balm of Gilead and that balm is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

On the other hand we have the essay making up false suicides to attack the church. That's insulting to the families of those who have lost loved ones to suicide. How on earth is that compassionate?

[Avatar4321]

6 hours ago, bluebell said:

This is from this SLC tribune article-

"She tallied another six in other states — though none of the reported deaths could be specifically tied to the policy.

Montgomery's statistics were shared at a recent meeting in Los Angeles of Affirmation, a support group for gay Mormons.

"The number of suicides reported to Wendy Montgomery is shocking," says John Gustav-Wrathall, Affirmation's newly installed president. "I've never seen anything like it in the history of my involvement with the organization."

Trouble is, the number far exceeds the suicide figures collected by the Utah Department of Health.

Preliminary figures for November and December show 10 suicides in the Beehive State for people ages 14 to 20, with two more cases "undetermined."

"We monitor the numbers [of youth suicides] very closely. We review them every month," says Teresa Brechlin, who works in the department's violence- and injury-prevention program. "If we had seen such a huge spike, we would have been investigating it."

Had there been any mention of the LDS Church's policy on gays, her department "would have noted that," Brechlin adds."

And how many of these suicides were lds?

[Damien the Leper]

27 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

This is honest; this is the beginning place that Montgomery did not choose and Rock, Daniel, etc. have also not done.  They still want to push an agenda while standing over the graves of teen suicides. 

Thanks, Storm. We should not be divisive when lives are being lost, families being fractured, hearts broken, spirits downtrodden. We have a responsibility as creation and divine family to bond and support each other. When we lose sight of that, how can we seek eternal communion, with humble and honest hearts, with our Father?

Perhaps I'm being too sentimental.

[Avatar4321]

6 hours ago, consiglieri said:

The Church's attitude toward gays has contributed to the high homeless teen gay population in Utah.

And it has contributed to the gay teen suicide rate in Utah.

There has been a huge spike in teen suicides since the policy was leaked.

Do you see no connection?

Except we've already established that this is pure nonsense

[Avatar4321]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

Saying they made the choice does not to address how to stop suicides from occurring.

Even if we taught agency and the results of faith, hope, sin and the Atonement perfectly, it would have little impact on someone thinking irrationally.

I agree it is important to start from the position that suicide was a choice they made, but if we stop there and spend our time blaming/condemning them for making that choice and not move past it to examining why they made that choice, including things that they allowed to influence them and other things they had no control over influencing them, how are we to help others make a different choice?

For example, my uncle killed himself.  He was dying of cancer.  His family and others could stop there and dwell on how unfair that he chose to deprive his family of a chance to say goodbye, but then how does that help the next guy in his situation?  If the doctors and family are prepared that brain tumors may remove inhibitions, that fear of going blind might then overcome beliefs that suicide is wrong, they may be able to provide counseling, medication for comfort and advise the family to keep a close eye on possible triggers as well as removing avenues  such as guns being present.  In the end understanding why he took that path while avoiding blame (guilt as opposed to why) will give greater protection to both individuals and the families of potential suicides.

The atonement is the only thing that can save anyone in this world.

And I have nothing against trying to understand why they made the choice to take their ownlife, especially if it helps stop others from doing the same. But the proximate cause was still their choice. They didn't lose their agency. They exercised it. The information we gather is to help encourage others to use their agency to make a better choice.

[Scott Lloyd]

17 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

Except we've already established that this is pure nonsense

Heh, when consig undertakes to wage war, truth is the first casualty.

 

Edited January 29, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Avatar4321]

4 hours ago, ALarson said:

"Highly dubious"?  If that were true, would the leaders have addressed it and responded?

Again, why not move past calling someone a liar and follow the example the church leaders have set here with their response published in the Deseret News. Many youth and families are struggling and are in pain over this issue.  How about putting your energy into finding a solution rather than attacking Wendy Montgomery? 

Why wouldn't they respond?

[ALarson]

4 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

Why wouldn't they respond?

By responding, it shows they are taking this report seriously (as they should).  I applaud them for doing so too.

[ALarson]

25 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

Except we've already established that this is pure nonsense

No one has established that these reports of teen suicides are "pure nonsense".  Just because you say this does not mean it's the truth.

Edited January 29, 2016 by ALarson

[Scott Lloyd]

4 minutes ago, ALarson said:

No one has established that these reports of teen suicides are "pure nonsense".  Just because you say this does not make it so.

It's certainly looking that way when you look at news reports (Deseret News and Tribune) quoting a state agency relative to the number of teen suicide deaths in Utah since November.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, ALarson said:

By responding, it shows they are taking this report seriously (as they should).  I applaud them for doing so too.

It's showing that they deem even one such death as unacceptable. It doesn't show that they find the numbers credible or the implied blame being placed on the Church and the new policy.

[Avatar4321]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

When someone says that 'things need to change' and they use the number of suicides as their evidence for why things need to change, then getting hung up on the numbers is inevitable. 

And now we learn that the suicide numbers have gone down, so doesn't that mean progress is being made? And since the total suicides is less than the amount claimed for lgbt suicides it seems that if there are any lgbt suicides in those numbers some of them may not even be lds and the epidemic that's being claimed may be an exception rather than a rule.

As long as we continue teaching and living the gospel we will win our youth from suicide

[Mystery Meat]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

 

Going off of memory, but didn't Teancum state it was a possibility?  And Stemelbow said it as well...though I am unclear in my memory as to if he dislikes the policy or is more neutral at this point.  Possibly ALarson as well, I have the impression he isn't happy about the policy but said something that the reaction might have caused problems itself.

There may be others.

That's fair.

How about the most adamant critics of faithful members of the Church on this thread.

[Storm Rider]

3 hours ago, Valentinus said:

Thanks, Storm. We should not be divisive when lives are being lost, families being fractured, hearts broken, spirits downtrodden. We have a responsibility as creation and divine family to bond and support each other. When we lose sight of that, how can we seek eternal communion, with humble and honest hearts, with our Father?

Perhaps I'm being too sentimental.

I don't think you are being sentimental, you are loving in the way our Father and his Son are loving.  This is the message that disciples respond to with open hearts.  

[Chaos]

The topic is reaching out to our youth. Do not expect posters to discuss suicide counts without giving documentation of numbers.

[maxrep12]

17 minutes ago, Chaos said:

The topic is reaching out to our youth. Do not expect posters to discuss suicide counts without giving documentation of numbers.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/mormontherapist/2016/01/double-binds-hurt-us.html#disqus_thread

The link above details where and how the numbers were arrived at(From Natasha Helfer Parker).

In the spirit of documentation required, meaning independently verifiable, can we discuss Joseph Smith's claim that he was commanded by an angel with a drawn sword to practice polygamy? Is this a two way street?