Reaching out to our Youth in Post-Policy Mormonism

[consiglieri]

6 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I'm not so quick to pin any deaths on the Church nor the policy as yet, but it's a scary/sad thought. 

You're a good guy, stemelbow, so let me put it to you this way.

You are a young man who is raised as a faithful Mormon in a faithful Mormon family in a faithful Mormon community.

All your friends and family are Mormon.

But you have realized you are gay.

You haven't told anybody, perhaps.

This is a deep, dark secret you must keep to yourself.

You pray and pray and pray to try to have the "right feelings," but nothing works.

Then the Church policy is leaked that gays living in committed relationships are automatically in "apostasy," and their children cannot received the ordinances of salvation that everybody else's children receive.

How do you think that might make you feel?

[Jeanne]

12 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Has anyone here ever interacted with a LGBT mormon because I havent. I've never been aware of one. And it seems all those mass resignations coming in to that lawyer and the church since November have been by straight people who were already inactive. I've yet to meet a gay mormon.

I have.  Before the policy.  He is no longer with us.

[consiglieri]

1 minute ago, Jeanne said:

I have.  Before the policy.  He is no longer with us.

I hope that doesn't mean he took his own life, Jeanne.

Does it?

[Damien the Leper]

Who cares about the policy?!? If kids are killing themselves then outreach is absolutely necessary. The egos of maintaining policy and dogma as well as pointing fingers of blame at the church and the policy only cause us to not focus on the central issue: kids are killing themselves. No child should ever be given a sliver of reason to believe they lack worth. If we have not learned from the epidemic of September 2010 then we are destined to continue to fail those who take their own lives. I'm not talking about theology or various forms of parenting. This has to stop. One life is one too many. Plain and simple. 

[stemelbow]

1.  It's possible she made up the number for deceiptful purposes.

2.  The reporting of suicide might be part of the problem.

Either way, it doesn't sound like we have the answer.  I hereby take some steps back from my earlier reaction of there being some sort of link between policy change and suicides. 

[Jeanne]

7 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

I hope that doesn't mean he took his own life, Jeanne.

Does it?

It does.  He was my stepson's partner for 7 years. 

[stemelbow]

9 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

You're a good guy, stemelbow, so let me put it to you this way.

You are a young man who is raised as a faithful Mormon in a faithful Mormon family in a faithful Mormon community.

All your friends and family are Mormon.

But you have realized you are gay.

You haven't told anybody, perhaps.

This is a deep, dark secret you must keep to yourself.

You pray and pray and pray to try to have the "right feelings," but nothing works.

Then the Church policy is leaked that gays living in committed relationships are automatically in "apostasy," and their children cannot received the ordinances of salvation that everybody else's children receive.

How do you think that might make you feel?

Consiglieri,

I have a number of friends, one I would categorize as my best friend, who is in the very situation you describe.  You need not try to put it to me like I can't sympathize with them.  I know the policy change made my friends feel terrible.  It did the same for me.  I do not like it, never have said a positive thing about it.  But it's a stretch to conclude to has caused people to commit suicide or has contributed.  I'm not saying it hasn't.  I haven't discounted the possibility.  I'm just saying it's feels to hasty to me to say there is cause.

[RevTestament]

23 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

then that is great.  Using the topic of teen suicide to push an agenda is beyond despicable

 

But we don't really know if Dragon Mama is inaccurate, or just plain sloppy, feeling emotionally charged, or is purposefully lying... so I am going to fall short of calling her despicable. I haven't gone thru the whole thread, it is dramatically growing, but it appears to me that Bluebell is the one who is being most responsible here by checking statistics before making claims or "accusations." If indeed there has been no rise in suicide, the reason for all the emotional rhetoric kinda fades... but then you could be right that an ulterior motive was behind the article. Perhaps someone in the LGBT community would care to defend Dragon Mama's statistic... of course it would help if the article provided an actual official source for it. Whatever the case, in that sense the article is a bad or irresponsible article.

[consiglieri]

1 minute ago, stemelbow said:

Consiglieri,

I have a number of friends, one I would categorize as my best friend, who is in the very situation you describe.  You need not try to put it to me like I can't sympathize with them.  I know the policy change made my friends feel terrible.  It did the same for me.  I do not like it, never have said a positive thing about it.  But it's a stretch to conclude to has caused people to commit suicide or has contributed.  I'm not saying it hasn't.  I haven't discounted the possibility.  I'm just saying it's feels to hasty to me to say there is cause.

The Church's attitude toward gays has contributed to the high homeless teen gay population in Utah.

And it has contributed to the gay teen suicide rate in Utah.

There has been a huge spike in teen suicides since the policy was leaked.

Do you see no connection?

[consiglieri]

3 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

It does.  He was my stepson's partner for 7 years. 

I am so sorry to hear this, Jeanne.

I do not want to intrude into such personal and sensitive matters.

But do you feel comfortable sharing whether Church policy and/or teachings contributed in any way?

There seem to be some on this board who refuse to accept the possibility of any such connection.

[Jeanne]

9 hours ago, Thinking said:

Some of you may remember that my son has come out as gay but he wants to be active LDS. He loves the idea of having a family., but the reality of that dream is not very likely. He knows that it will be difficult to find a girl who will want to marry a gay man. Every so often he will come over to our house because he needs to talk. He has had thoughts of suicide at times and has twice had counseling to help him resolve his issues. His place in the LDS community is one of the things that causes stress. It's impossible for those of us who are straight to really understand what somebody in his situation endures. I can't imagine being told that I would never be able to have sex with a woman and that I would have to marry a man to qualify for exaltation. I worry about him every day because he has been so fragile emotionally. I am not writing this post to try to get the LDS Church to change, but just to help you understand the struggle of one gay LDS man.

This must be so difficult.  My heart goes out to your son and to you as a parent.  Many hugs..

Jeanne

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

There has been a huge spike in teen suicides since the policy was leaked.

 

Can you provide a reference for this statement?

[stemelbow]

Just now, consiglieri said:

The Church's attitude toward gays has contributed to the high homeless teen gay population in Utah.

And it has contributed to the gay teen suicide rate in Utah.

There has been a huge spike in teen suicides since the policy was leaked.

Do you see no connection?

If all this were true, Consig, then yes.  I would say, from what Iv'e seen, the 34 number is questionable.  Or it's also possible the 34 number is accurate and our historic figure is wrong if suicide reporting is the problem.  What if someone had inside knowledge as the Momma Dragons lady did (if she is correct), on all suicides before?  I wonder what such a view would suggest about all of this. 

[Mystery Meat]

3 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

The Church's attitude toward gays has contributed to the high homeless teen gay population in Utah.

And it has contributed to the gay teen suicide rate in Utah.

There has been a huge spike in teen suicides since the policy was leaked.

CFR. Like now. Those are bold claims, and no one has been able to substantiate them in any meaningful way. The third one has been contradicted by the state itself.

[Mystery Meat]

3 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

 

I do not want to intrude into such personal and sensitive matters.

But do you feel comfortable sharing whether Church policy and/or teachings contributed in any way?

 

In other words, "I dont mean to be a terrible person and exploit his death for rhetorical advantage, but I am going to anyway..."

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

The problem is that many of us did read the link, and found the article offensive.

You can't see that comparing someone to Lady Macbeth might be a bit offensive?

Which is why I was so surprised and responded accordingly..then got my butt chewed out.  These kids are your Wards!!

[Jeanne]

7 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

I am so sorry to hear this, Jeanne.

I do not want to intrude into such personal and sensitive matters.

But do you feel comfortable sharing whether Church policy and/or teachings contributed in any way?

There seem to be some on this board who refuse to accept the possibility of any such connection.

I can't because he took his life before the policy.  That being said, he was turned out by family and guilt played a huge part.

[smac97]

2 hours ago, consiglieri said:

You're a good guy, stemelbow, so let me put it to you this way.

You are a young man who is raised as a faithful Mormon in a faithful Mormon family in a faithful Mormon community.

All your friends and family are Mormon.

But you have realized you are gay.

You haven't told anybody, perhaps.

This is a deep, dark secret you must keep to yourself.

You pray and pray and pray to try to have the "right feelings," but nothing works.

Then the Church policy is leaked that gays living in committed relationships are automatically in "apostasy," and their children cannot received the ordinances of salvation that everybody else's children receive.

How do you think that might make you feel?

And then there's this:

You are a young man who is raised as a faithful Mormon in a faithful Mormon family in a faithful Mormon community.

All your friends and family are Mormon.

But you have realized you are gay.

You haven't told anybody, perhaps.

This is a deep, dark secret you must keep to yourself.

[]

Then the Church policy is leaked that gays living in committed relationships are automatically in "apostasy," and their children cannot received the ordinances of salvation that everybody else's children receive.

And then you start hearing things from people you don't know, but who are telling you what your Church and its leaders and followers allegedly think about you.  That is, people already predisposed to dislike the Church hear about this "leak" and begin a massive campaign to publicly excoriate and vilify the LDS Church.  

This campaign is similar in design and tactics to those used to train Palestinian children to fear and loathe Jews.  That is, this struggling young man is all at once inundated with endless messages and declarations that the religion to which he belongs "hates" him.  That the General Authorities he has looked up to and admired "hate" him.  That some of his fellow Latter-day Saints "hate" him.  His worldview is upended.  All that he thought he knew was wrong.  Everyone, it seems, is telling him that his friends, his family, his church, "hate" him.  And let's keep in mind that these messages are not coming from his LDS friends and family and leaders, but from their enemies, people who are putting the vilest of words into the mouths of the Latter-day Saints.  "Your church, your leaders, and your fellow Mormons hate you" is the message being purveyed.  By enemies of the Latter-day Saints.  To the minds of impressionable and stressed-out teenagers.

How do you think that might make you feel?

As I have noted previously,  surely such a message would be an incredible stressor to an impressionable young man or woman.  And yet I have not seen much in the way of critics cautioning each other against publishing rhetoric designed to alienate Latter-day Saints from their faith.  Nevo emphasized this point as made in a recent Archives of Suicide Research article (emphasis added):

Quote

There were two important clinical implications found in the current study. First, it may seem counterintuitive that when individuals choose to leave their religion in order to experience more self-acceptance that they inadvertently experience more risk for suicide. Clinicians should be aware that leaving one's religion of origin may add additional stressors that ultimately place a client at additional risk for suicide. Further, the negative impact felt from leaving one's religion due to conflict has a stronger impact than the positive indirect impact through a reduction in internalized homophobia.

Sadly, we are witnessing people who are bound and determined to shove these stressors down the throats of LDS teens.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

Edited January 29, 2016 by smac97

[stemelbow]

11 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I can't because he took his life before the policy.  That being said, he was turned out by family and guilt played a huge part.

That is terrible.  I'm sorry to hear.

[RevTestament]

12 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Has anyone here ever interacted with a LGBT mormon because I havent. I've never been aware of one. And it seems all those mass resignations coming in to that lawyer and the church since November have been by straight people who were already inactive. I've yet to meet a gay mormon.

I personally know one who "resigned." When he was a kid, he went with us to church a couple times, and on a couple camp outs with our kids. After one such trip, he even got up and "bore his testimony" which I could tell he was moved by the spirit, but had real trouble expressing it. Anyway, he may have got into drugs according to my son, and later got a girl pregnant, and lived with her. It was at this time that he decided to "resign" as part of the mass resignation. But as far as I know he was never baptized a member. He probably just had his name on the rolls as an investigator. My impression is the vast majority of resigners are not LGBT.

[RevTestament]

15 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I can't because he took his life before the policy.  That being said, he was turned out by family and guilt played a huge part.

My condolences Jeanne. I think I can surely speak for my family too.

[Jeanne]

5 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

My condolences Jeanne. I think I can surely speak for my family too.

Thank you.  My stepson is still having a hard time with this.  He is aware of the policy and saddened by it.  Seems like Utah took a couple of steps forward and three steps back and he is having a hard time.  My stepson was not baptized LDS. 

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

I disagree. If there are any suicides, which no real evidence has been provided, the cause of death is very obvious, it was caused by the one killed.

It seems completely disrespectful to act like their agency has no role in it. Why they made the choice doesn't change the fact that it was their choice.

I understand that it's a difficult issue.It is undeniably painful to have a loved one kill themselves. But isn't it better respect their choice instead of acting as if their are victims? They aren't forced into suicide, no matter how they feel, if they were, we would be talking murder not suicide.

Maybe if we taught agency better and convinced them there is always hope because of Christ and the miracle of forgiveness they wouldn't make that choice.

Saying they made the choice does not to address how to stop suicides from occurring.

Even if we taught agency and the results of faith, hope, sin and the Atonement perfectly, it would have little impact on someone thinking irrationally.

I agree it is important to start from the position that suicide was a choice they made, but if we stop there and spend our time blaming/condemning them for making that choice and not move past it to examining why they made that choice, including things that they allowed to influence them and other things they had no control over influencing them, how are we to help others make a different choice?

For example, my uncle killed himself.  He was dying of cancer.  His family and others could stop there and dwell on how unfair that he chose to deprive his family of a chance to say goodbye, but then how does that help the next guy in his situation?  If the doctors and family are prepared that brain tumors may remove inhibitions, that fear of going blind might then overcome beliefs that suicide is wrong, they may be able to provide counseling, medication for comfort and advise the family to keep a close eye on possible triggers as well as removing avenues  such as guns being present.  In the end understanding why he took that path while avoiding blame (guilt as opposed to why) will give greater protection to both individuals and the families of potential suicides.

[salgare]

Here is the wicked Mama Dragon, I understand she is still Mormon.

 

 

 

 

[smac97]

2 minutes ago, salgare said:

Here is the wicked Mama Dragon, I understand she is still Mormon.

I am happy to assume she has some good motives.  But I think she's misguided in some pretty serious ways, not the least of which is the notion that fabricating statistics about teen suicides is a healthy or appropriate thing to do.  

Thanks,

-Smac