Reaching out to our Youth in Post-Policy Mormonism

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Why is it disgusting?  Is the Church beyond culpability for its actions and policies?

The policies of the Church do not force people to kill themselves.  The Church should not make decisions on how someone might react to the decisions it makes.  There will always be someone in a large group that will react in a way that is negative.  That is a part of life.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

When all is said and done, it seems like we're left with increased rates of suicide and suicide attempts among homosexual youth.  

But Nevo's study was not comparing LGBT youth with nonLGBT youth, but LGBT to LGBT across religious contexts.  This is saying something significant about the interaction of religion and LGBT.

I am wondering if the study differentiates among different religious attributes and how it identifies religious conflict.

Identifying what religious aspects are protective and what religious aspects are destructive appears to me to be very important.

This also seems very important:

Quote

First, it may seem counterintuitive that when individuals choose to leave their religion in order to experience more self-acceptance that they inadvertently experience more risk for suicide. Clinicians should be aware that leaving one's religion of origin may add additional stressors that ultimately place a client at additional risk for suicide. Further, the negative impact felt from leaving one's religion due to conflict has a stronger impact than the positive indirect impact through a reduction in internalized homophobia.

For those encouraging LGBT youth that they would be better off leaving the LDS faith, perhaps this should cause you to reconsider.

[carbon dioxide]

Gay kids have a higher rate of suicide generally in the population.  LDS gay kids have committed suicide before the policy change and will continue to .  A fair number of LDS have killed themselves abusing drugs but I don't think one can blame the Church for its policies on that. At the end of the day we are all accountable of our decisions and blaming others for our actions is not a good excuse.

[salgare]

I've got a fun and encouraging story from just two weeks back.  My wife and I are trying to get back into a date night each week, with each being responsible to choose what the activity will be every other week.  On my wife's last week she chose bowling.  We live in a very small town in the Mountains with a very high density of TBM's.  The alleys were full and we sat their eating a burger while we waited for a lane.   There were five teenage girls and one boy of the same age also waiting for a lane.  We later ended up side by side at the same ball return.

All six of these individuals had all the signs of being active Mormons in our isolated valley.  Now I don't know all the LGBTxyz ins and outs of the matter, but it was obvious this young man was simply one of the girls on this girls night out.  Watching this group interact up close and personal for a couple hours that night very much impressed me about those five millennial teenage girls and their complete acceptance of this young man as just one of the girls.

If only us older generations could ease up a bit.

 

[Russell C McGregor]

17 minutes ago, Calm said:

But Nevo's study was not comparing LGBT youth with nonLGBT youth, but LGBT to LGBT across religious contexts.  This is saying something significant about the interaction of religion and LGBT.

I am wondering if the study differentiates among different religious attributes and how it identifies religious conflict.

Identifying what religious aspects are protective and what religious aspects are destructive appears to me to be very important.

This also seems very important:

For those encouraging LGBT youth that they would be better off leaving the LDS faith, perhaps this should cause you to reconsider.

Does this mean that Daniel2 is to blame if any less-active or apostate gay kid commits suicide?

After all, he's the one who harps incessantly on the theme that they're better off "anywhere" but in the Church.

Wouldn't that be ironic?

Hoist on his own petard!

 

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

Can you show any culpability in this regard?

 

Can anyone show direct culpability in any suicide? But surely you must understand the pressure and struggles of self worth an gay LDS teen must go through.   Do you really think this new policy would not add to this and push some over the edge?  

I could be wrong of course.  Other experts may agree.  For example see here;

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/mormontherapist/2016/01/double-binds-hurt-us.html

[Danzo]

4 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Can anyone show direct culpability in any suicide? But surely you must understand the pressure and struggles of self worth an gay LDS teen must go through.   Do you really think this new policy would not add to this and push some over the edge?  

I could be wrong of course.  Other experts may agree.  For example see here;

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/mormontherapist/2016/01/double-binds-hurt-us.html

When one asserts someone is guilty, one has to show evidence.  If you don't show evidence, how do we know culpability?

 

It is interesting that this article only contains assertions, with no data.

 

I like this quote " *Wendy Montgomery is a personal friend of mine and I have spoken with her regarding these reports. She has had one-on-one contact with each family reported that has lost an LDS LGBT member to suicide. Imagine what that would entail. The courage that she and her husband have exemplified as they have learned how to advocate not only for their gay son, but for so many other individuals and families is honorable. The time and energy they have spent grieving with and supporting others is a poignant example of what it looks like to live our baptismal covenants and “bear each others burdens.” I will have little patience allowing negative comments on my blog that attack this kind, gracious sister. "

We are still required  faith in data  that are secret.

 

 

[Calm]

Quote

Does this mean that Daniel2 is to blame if any less-active or apostate gay kid commits suicide?

Unlikely.  But it does mean we should all be careful in what we are saying and counseling, imo, and that common sense isn't always what works in this case (demonstrated in multiple areas, imo, when it comes to suicide).

Edited January 29, 2016 by Calm

[Storm Rider]

4 hours ago, Daniel2 said:

Rock,

It's clear that the majority of responses you've received embody the type of reactions the author was attempting to avoid.  Most of what I've read in this thread are devout Latter-day Saints bristling at the thought that the church (as a group of believers) isn't doing a good enough job at helping LDS gay teens and young adults from committing suicide.  It appears they can't separate a call to compassionate action from the finger of blame and criticism.  Instead of worrying about the teenagers that are killing themselves--or even attempting to understand why or what could be done, throughout the body of the church, to better minister to such teens--they appear hell-bent on absolving the body of Saints, the policy, the way it's been handled on the church's side (which I only point out because they're positive that it was those critical of the policy who exposed it that are responsible for causing the resulting pain, instead of any possiblity that pain could be the result of the policy itself and/or the manner in which it's been addressed...), and the general lack of empathy, compassion, or care from LDS leaders and the general membership from ANY and ALL possible contributions to feelings or motives which resulted in these kids' deaths.

In their mind, it appears that it's entirely black and white--either the church (it's message, leadership, and membership) is ENTIRELY to blame, OR the church is ENTIRELY innocent.  And, from what I've seen here, most active members posting here seem entirely convinced that anyone who raises suicides as a concern about which a discussion could prove at least worth having is actually just promoting a "political agenda" to cause the church to change.  It doesn't seem there's room for discussion about what kind of messages would be worth sharing, over the pulpit, in firesides, through home teaching or youth activities... nothing.  It's either "you're blaming the church and that's despicable," OR "the church and the LDS community are doing EVERYTHING possible to prevent suicide, and there's simply nothing left that anyone could do to prevent these kids' deaths."

And, at the end of the day, that's the message that the author of the article seems to be attempting to overcome.

Sadly, MDD is more concerned about defending the church, it's policies, leaders, and members, from ANY potential criticism (even when none is intended) than engaging in any type of discussion about how the church could possibly help.

The message that I'm hearing loud and clear is: We've done plenty to help these kids.  It's not our fault if our doctrines offend.  Because suicide is complex and caused by a complex interplay of numerous factors, we can rest assured that we (the members, leaders, and doctrines of our church) couldn't possibly be blamed.  And anyone who tries to discuss compassionate service to prevent suicides should be shouted down, shamed, and dismissed as the anti-Mormons they obviously are.

And at the end of the day, that just proves that gays and lesbians and their family members (be they children, teens, adults, or obviously the straight kids thereof) are clearly better off ANYwhere else than within Mormonism.

Daniel,

You are painting a picture to meet your perspective and not the reality.  There remains a high concern about those who choose suicide regardless of the reason. What is so offensive is to use teen suicide to further a political agenda.  That is what is abhorrent to me.  

Several of us have stated clearly the opinion similar to, " Concern for youth and suicide is not a gender issue; it is not a race issue; it is a personal, individual issue.  LDS parents, members, leaders have, as a group, never stopped being concerned about the issue."  

All you have done is pander to the agenda and smugly, self-righteously agree with Rock.  

When you have a member that has committed suicide then you come and talk to me about this stupid agenda being bandied about.  IF, that is a big, giant if, the real intent is to inspire members to care more deeply about teen suicide and to become more involved there is a totally different approach to inspiring others.  What this unfortunate blog entry has done is despicable and I again state, I reject it in total for what it is; a piece of propaganda to further a specific agenda.  

[smac97]

So the Salt Lake Tribune is expressing some skepticism about the numbers reported by Wendy Montgomery:

Quote

From the policy's onset through the end of 2015, Montgomery, a leader of the Mama Dragons support group for the families of gay Latter-day Saints, says she had counted 26 suicides of young LGBT Mormons in Utah — 23 males, one female and two transgender individuals — between ages 14 and 20.

She tallied another six in other states — though none of the reported deaths could be specifically tied to the policy.

Montgomery's statistics were shared at a recent meeting in Los Angeles of Affirmation, a support group for gay Mormons.

"The number of suicides reported to Wendy Montgomery is shocking," says John Gustav-Wrathall, Affirmation's newly installed president. "I've never seen anything like it in the history of my involvement with the organization."

Trouble is, the number far exceeds the suicide figures collected by the Utah Department of Health.

Preliminary figures for November and December show 10 suicides in the Beehive State for people ages 14 to 20, with two more cases "undetermined."

"We monitor the numbers [of youth suicides] very closely. We review them every month," says Teresa Brechlin, who works in the department's violence- and injury-prevention program. "If we had seen such a huge spike, we would have been investigating it."

Had there been any mention of the LDS Church's policy on gays, her department "would have noted that," Brechlin adds. "We have not seen that at all."

Hmm.

Quote

Data deficit • The number of Utah's youth suicides likely is higher than the Health Department notes, says former Utah Pride Center Executive Director Marian Edmonds-Allen, "but no one has good data."

When violent deaths occur, investigators could do a quick survey of witnesses or family members to find out about the deceased's sexual orientation, mental health or religious community.

"Is a traffic death or overdose an accident or suicide?" Edmonds-Allen asks. "There's such shame and stigma around suicide and depression in our community."

Hmm X 2.

Quote

Words matter • Lisa Tensmeyer Hansen, an LDS therapist in Provo, knows of no LGBT suicides that have happened as a result of the church's policy, but she has seen its effect on many gay Mormons, especially those striving to remain in the faith.

Hansen has observed "increased suicidal thoughts, depression and anxiety."

"In my experience with specific cases, I have noticed that the more an LGBTQ person was interested in remaining close to the church or connected with it," she says, "the greater has been the negative emotional process resulting from the policy change."

Hansen says she has seen several cases in which active Mormon clients "felt they had hit a wall they could not negotiate and gave up trying to participate altogether ... [and others] who are struggling with greater depression and less hope."

Gay Latter-days Saints who had "already removed themselves from the church, either formally or informally, prior to the policy announcement," she says, seemed to experience "less mental distress, generally, as a result of the policy."

This makes sense.

Quote

Multiple catalysts • Linking any suicide to a particular cause is difficult.

"Suicide is a tragic and incredibly complicated phenomenon," says Brad Kramer, who just finished teaching a unit on suicide in his Utah Valley University ethics class. "It is clear that suicide incidence can be strongly influenced by how we talk about, describe and report on suicides."

Still, blaming LGBTQ suicides on any single cause, "including widely influential anti-LGBTQ rhetoric and policies," he says, "is probably not helpful."

Words to live by, I think.

Quote

Such simplistic thinking not only trivializes "the complexity of suicide and feels like weaponizing tragedies in a culture war," Kramer says, "but it's possible that publicly portraying people who die by suicide as martyrs in a righteous fight and escalating that conflict in the process will contribute to, rather than curtail, Mormon LGBTQ suicides."

Well, this would be sage counsel, except for the next paragraph:

Quote

The UVU scholar isn't trying to sympathize with the church's "homophobic rhetoric and policies," he says. "The new LDS policies are absolutely having a negative and ostracizing impact on LGBTQ Mormons and their families. They embolden anti-gay bullies and deepen social marginalization. They almost certainly contribute [along with a wide range of factors] to LGBTQ suicides and suicide attempts."

Mr. Kramer isn't helping by publicly accusing the LDS Church of "homophobia."  He's taking sides in the very "culture war" he's talking about.  He is "weaponizing tragedies."

Quote

Activists, though, "should be very careful in how we discuss their complicity, not just in the spirit of de-escalation," Kramer says, "but because to discuss it irresponsibly could itself contribute to the phenomenon we seek to prevent."

Says the guy who just publicly (and falsely) accused the LDS Church of "homophobic rhetoric."  That's pretty rich.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

[salgare]

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865646414/LDS-Church-leaders-mourn-reported-deaths-in-Mormon-LGBT-community.html?pg=all

[VideoGameJunkie]

What is the cause of these LGBT youth suicides? Where should the blame go? On the youth committing suicide and hurting themselves?

[Traela]

54 minutes ago, salgare said:

I've got a fun and encouraging story from just two weeks back.  My wife and I are trying to get back into a date night each week, with each being responsible to choose what the activity will be every other week.  On my wife's last week she chose bowling.  We live in a very small town in the Mountains with a very high density of TBM's.  The alleys were full and we sat their eating a burger while we waited for a lane.   There were five teenage girls and one boy of the same age also waiting for a lane.  We later ended up side by side at the same ball return.

All six of these individuals had all the signs of being active Mormons in our isolated valley.  Now I don't know all the LGBTxyz ins and outs of the matter, but it was obvious this young man was simply one of the girls on this girls night out.  Watching this group interact up close and personal for a couple hours that night very much impressed me about those five millennial teenage girls and their complete acceptance of this young man as just one of the girls.

If only us older generations could ease up a bit.

 

 

We're not in Utah, but that could very well have been my daughter and her friends, who have been united in geekiness since elementary school.  The lone boy is not "one of the girls", he is one of the group.

 

[VideoGameJunkie]

When it comes to suicide can we all just come to a mutual conclusion that it's Satan at fault and he's to blame?

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

The Church is very responsible for its actions and policies.
The Church is definitely NOT responsible for the actions of those troubled by the Church and its policies.

Why?

[salgare]

11 minutes ago, Traela said:

 

We're not in Utah, but that could very well have been my daughter and her friends, who have been united in geekiness since elementary school.  The lone boy is not "one of the girls", he is one of the group.

 

yes, I that is what I should have said

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said:

The policies of the Church do not force people to kill themselves.  The Church should not make decisions on how someone might react to the decisions it makes.  There will always be someone in a large group that will react in a way that is negative.  That is a part of life.

Clearly.  But steps can be taken to minimize harm.  I have never argued that the church need change its teachings on sexuality nor do I expect it ever will.  But in my opinion the new policy goes out of its way to create harm and has likely done so and will continue to do so. I thought the church was taking decent steps towards LBGT issues over the past few years within its doctrinal teachings.   I think since November they have kicked things back about 30 or more years.   Thus unnecessary pressure is out on those who are gay and in LDS homes and raised to believe it is what it claims and trying to navigate through it.  They will be more depressed, discourage, struggle with issues of self worth,etc.. All these can lead to risk of suicide.  This policy now cast as revelation is unfortunate and really not needed.

[JLHPROF]

4 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Why?

Because people have agency and free will.
Blaming the Church for the actions of a member who is troubled by their policies is like blaming the US Govt for the actions of a certain group of Oregon militia who disagree with a government policy.
 

[VideoGameJunkie]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Because people have agency and free will.
Blaming the Church for the actions of a member who is troubled by their policies is like blaming the US Govt for the actions of a certain group of Oregon militia who disagree with a government policy.
 

Right, so the youth who committed suicide are to blame because they had their agency and chose poorly.

[Rivers]

My heart goes out to all those in pain because of the new policy.  Except I don't know how to identify those to whom I need to reach out.  Too many silent sufferers. 

"In the quiet heart is hidden sorrow that the eye can't see."

[Calm]

18 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Right, so the youth who committed suicide are to blame because they had their agency and chose poorly.

Better yet, don't blame anyone.  Just study the issues and try to provide the positives that may help them.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Calm

[salgare]

4 hours ago, smac97 said:

What about the "gay culture?"  The one that teaches that "homosexual behavior" is just okey dokey?  Which "homosexual behavior" appears to substantially increase the risk of suicide?  

In my telling of my bowling experience two weeks back, I'd suggest that young man was not with that group of young women because it was "okey dokey" with society.  I'm an old homophobic from way back but it was blatantly obvious to me this young man was born that way.

Now ironically it was five beautiful, obviously Mormon young women that found it okey dokey to accept this young man.  The weekly message that I suggested was not in the lessons from the Church, it was from their acceptance level among their peers and other ward members.  This is a lucky young man with obvious love and support of at least some of his peers.  I cannot image what it is like for those with little or no support.

I was happy you were willing to address me smac ... thank you.
 

[Storm Rider]

35 minutes ago, salgare said:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865646414/LDS-Church-leaders-mourn-reported-deaths-in-Mormon-LGBT-community.html?pg=all

Salgare, this is good evidence at how effective propaganda can be.  Someone has created numbers out of whole cloth - i.e. she lied through her teeth - and people believe her.  What should people do to combat propaganda?  Never accept what is written unless it is verified by a legitimate, objective, neutral source.  This person has an axe to grind and she is grinding it while wrapping herself in the robes of a highly charged, emotional event - teen suicides. 

This just verifies how despicable her actions were and are.

Regardless, in spite of her lying propaganda, suicide is a tragic choice and action.  It can easily be someone that you feel is strong and without cares as easily as it can be the one that obviously is in pain.  Reaching out and caring for others is not done just because you SEE the pain they are in.  If you wait that long it is too late.  It must be a constant reaching out, embracing, caring for the "other" - all others.  

[Danzo]

25 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Why?

If I am troubled by your comments on this thread and then go commit suicide, are you responsible?

Edited January 29, 2016 by Danzo

[Teancum]

14 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Because people have agency and free will.
Blaming the Church for the actions of a member who is troubled by their policies is like blaming the US Govt for the actions of a certain group of Oregon militia who disagree with a government policy.
 

It seems to me that within its doctrine it should work to apply such in a way that will do as little harm as possible.   The recent policy now claimed as revelation does not do that.

I explain why I felt that way I another post above.

 

but sure the Church can do and say what it wants and so what how it impacts its people.   Right?

And so what how it impacts the church as well. right?