Reaching out to our Youth in Post-Policy Mormonism

[Teancum]

4 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

My sympathies go to all that loose a loved one to any cause, be it suicide, drunk driving, whatever. But to blame the Church is disgusting.

Why is it disgusting?  Is the Church beyond culpability for its actions and policies?

[Calm]

1 hour ago, rpn said:

I'm thinking it might be worth discussing how to support and love LGBT young people the way God would do it. 

Focusing on the positive changes that can be done by individuals and the Church would likely be more helpful than focusing on fears, given the data that is out there about what happens when fear speaks without caution (as referenced in my earlier post).

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

 at the amount of venom about this article.  We all live on the same planet people!

And that you read comments as "venom" should cause you to consider maybe you are seeing people in a more negative light than you should.

I have no doubt that everyone here wants what is best for youth and adults for that matter.  The only difficulty comes in that we see this happening in different ways. 

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Why is it disgusting?  Is the Church beyond culpability for its actions and policies?

To blame anyone is inappropriate at this point.  We don't know what is causing the deaths.  It would be better to find out why before slamming down solutions that may end up backfiring.

[Daniel2]

43 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I'm not inclined to have a substantive discussion about such an important topic with someone who lacks even the most basic notions of decorum, respect, good faith, and decency.

Coming to an LDS message board and publicly accusing us of not caring about teen suicides is the height of boorishness.  I will not dignify your comments with anything further.

-Smac

Boy, you've REALLY nailed me here, Smac... ;-) I'd be willing to bet that EVERYONE here at MDD who's familiar with my posting style and personality would characterize me as "lacking the most basic notions of decorum, respect, good faith, and decency," not to mention being "the height of boorishness."

Nice ad hominem, Mr. Lawyer, but none-too-subtle.

Your assertion to "avoid dignifying my comments further" was ultimately a refusal to discuss how to help minister to LDS teens to avoid suicide.  Ironically, such a refusal doesn't hurt me in the least  but does have the net effect of doing nothing more to solve the problem, thereby reinforcing my previous observation that most members posting in this thread seem to be avoiding any possibility of reflective discussion of how the LDS community could potentially help--an action which any reasonable person could presume demonstrates a lack of caring or concern, thereby reinforcing my earlier observation.

Thankfully, as I previously noted, church leadership chose to respond differently through their comments as reported by the church's newspaper.  I hope the article promotes similar dialogue among LDS membership in their local wards and stakes, through social media, in congregations and youth groups--and even here at MDD.  I hope to hear more of this type of encouraging, suicide-preventing dialogue directly from church leadership in future firesides, conferences, etc.  THIS is the kind of response which I think exemplifies how Christ would attempt to minister to sinners, outcasts, and the downtrodden, all of which I think LDS teens may identify with to some degree.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Daniel2

[rpn]

http://familyproject.sfsu.edu/node/26/done?sid=14916&token=c71e467b8e9d58fdba739cb8d26881a1

This link is to current (2009) research in what helps/hinders LGBT youth.

Notes:

Anything focused on helping someone integrate better with hetro population seen as rejection of self.

Allow searching for what it means to be LBGT.  Allow them to have and be with gay friends.    Anything that suggests someone hide their feelings diminishes them (and within an LDS context seems contrary to the being gay is NOT a sin position).

Quote

Behaviors to Avoid
Hitting, slapping or physically hurting your child because of their LGBT identity

Verbal harassment or name-calling because of your child’s LGBT identity

Excluding LGBT youth from family and family activities

Blocking access to LGBT friends, events & resources

Blaming your child when they are discriminated against because of their LGBT identity

Pressuring your child to   be more (or less) masculine or feminine

Telling your child that God will punish them because they are gay

Telling your child that you are ashamed of them or that how they look or act will shame the
family

Making your child keep their LGBT identity a secret in the family and not letting them talk about
it

 

Those things seem rather easy to avoid, as even on their face they seem cruel and unnecessary (though when hit with it out of the blue, it has to be really really hard for a parent to not react until they've been able to process the fear and sadness for their child).

Quote

Behaviors that Help
Talk with your child or foster child about their LGBT identity

Express affection when your child tells you or when you learn that your child is gay or
transgender
Support your child’s LGBT identity even though you may feel uncomfortable
Advocate for your child when he or she is mistreated because of their LGBT identity

Require that other family members respect your LGBT child
Bring your child to LGBT organizations or events
Talk with clergy and help your faith community to support LGBT people
Connect your child with an LGBT adult role model to show them options for the future
Welcome your child’s LGBT friends & partners to your home
Support your child’s gender expression

Believe your child can have a happy future as an LGBT adult

 As I look at this, the only things I think of in an LDS context would be how to connect your child with the role models and support groups that acknowledge that recognize one doesn't have to transgress God's laws in order to be a fullfilled, affirmed person.  And how to deal with partners without suggesting one approves of sex/family relationships outside of opposite sex marriage.   This would be even more difficult recognizing that God likes the idea of marriage overall, and we wouldn't typically bat an eye at inviting neighbors or whomever to our home even though we knew they were living together in common law marriage or without marriage at all.  

And how to teach that vital part of identity as a child of God that is the basis for their whole identity and the only stable and eternal basis.

One thing that intrigued me about the research is that in the 1970's people reported on average knowing they were gay at 16-19 and coming out in their 20's.  Now people are reporting that they first knew at age 10 and come out at 13-14.  The question is why just 30 years causes such a huge difference?   And, if the researcher's thinking that this is because there is more exposure to sexual things (or maybe to same sex information?), then what should parents do about that?   And the secular world teaches that sexual identity is a social construct, when we know that it is an inherent part of who we are eternally.

 

[Jeanne]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

And that you read comments as "venom" should cause you to consider maybe you are seeing people in a more negative light than you should.

I have no doubt that everyone here wants what is best for youth and adults for that matter.  The only difficulty comes in that we see this happening in different ways. 

See my previous answer to Danzo on page 5 I believe.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Jeanne

[rockpond]

56 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Rockpond,

>  Nope.  Why do you think Christ identified those who passed by as a Priest and a Levite?  Why did they go to the other side of the road?  Why identify them in this way?

Lemme guess: Because He knew that in 2016 a fellow hiding behind a pseudonym would use this parable to publicly disparage His anointed servants?

That is what you are doing, right?  You are suggesting that the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve are, allegorically, the Priest and the Levite?

Don't be coy with your evil-speaking of the Lord's anointed, Rock!  Don't hide behind rhetorical questions.

Or, better yet, re-consider your apparent accusations.

Thanks,

-Smac

Actually, I was making no such accusation.  That thought hadn't even crossed my mind. 

[Danzo]

14 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Why is it disgusting?  Is the Church beyond culpability for its actions and policies?

Can you show any culpability in this regard?

 

[JLHPROF]

31 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I had a family in my ward kick their gay son out the door and they were not called on the carpet for so doing. That is not love.

The Church policy makes it even more difficult for developing teens that recognize they are gay and thus flawed and automatically an apostate if they act on their sexuality.  That is not love either.

I really want to respond to this using the examples set by Heavenly Father, but I can't think of a way to phrase the examples that wouldn't offend somebody.

I think that continuing to love our children no matter what is the key principle here.  And providing ever source of help, comfort, and strength to help them is our responsibility.

[JLHPROF]

32 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Why is it disgusting?  Is the Church beyond culpability for its actions and policies?

The Church is very responsible for its actions and policies.
The Church is definitely NOT responsible for the actions of those troubled by the Church and its policies.

[Russell C McGregor]

6 hours ago, rockpond said:

"Here’s the newsflash: every one of us has culpability for these deaths if we are not actively, openly doing all we can to reduce them. Step one in that quest is to make sure your adult voice is heard by all our youth so that every one of them knows exactly who among us will listen, love, and let them lean on our shoulders. The more voices they hear in their congregations–voices that rise not to preach, but to love and support–the lower the odds become that they will choose death. These kids are a gift from God. Let them hear you say that, clearly and often, without qualification. Save a life, starting today."

And so the manipulation goes.

"If you don't agree with me, you're responsible for everyone who commits suicide!"

This tactic is despicable, deceitful and inconscionable.

Stop it.

 

[Russell C McGregor]

5 hours ago, salgare said:

I gather these mama dragons might be comparable to Mothers against Drunk Driving, a group of people with empathy for the ones that are hurting, typically from very close family/friend situations.

And do you know what ... they were exactly like you or your wife with no sympathy let-a-lone empathy for those who suffer, until some tragedy struck close to home.

When are you going to stop accusing everyone who disagrees with you of "immorality" or "lacking empathy" or something similar?

 

[Calm]

47 minutes ago, rpn said:

http://familyproject.sfsu.edu/node/26/done?sid=14916&token=c71e467b8e9d58fdba739cb8d26881a1

This link is to current (2009) research in what helps/hinders LGBT youth......

And how to teach that vital part of identity as a child of God that is the basis for their whole identity and the only stable and eternal basis.

Well done.

One thing that occurs to me given the data that shows living an active LDS life is correlated with less suicide (iirc that stats correctly, it was 1/7 as likely as nonmembers and 1/4 as inactive as measured by age appropriate priesthood level) is that LDS families and church leaders could focus on teaching chastity in general, especially from the point of view of becoming more familiar  and confident in oneself before engaging in sexual or potentially sexual relationships.  If these teachings are successful, then youth would be older and hopefully more self aware and self disciplined when they choose to make the decision on what direction they wish to take in terms of romance and sexual behaviour.  Teaching youth to take time and not rush in works for any POV and if it is asked of those who see themselves as heterosexual, homosexual, or anything else, then no one has to feel on the outside/different etc.

IIRC group dating (which means essentially no actual romance, but just having fun/doing things together in a group) is suggested for all those not old enough for marriage (14/16-18).  While the Church would likely discourage something particularly identified as a group homosexual date, approaching group activity from the direction the suggestions provided by rpn such as encouraging positive associations with other LGBT youth would not be seen as inappropriate in my view.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Calm

[rpn]

Calm, I have no problem with your just using snips of my post (too many here clip the entire thing, when a sentence or two would do).  But I do think that you cannot do that without putting the ... where you left things out.   The way you quoted me suggests that the last sentence is in the first two things, when those sources were secular.

[Russell C McGregor]

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

Well no, it doesn't.  There is an utterly unsubstantiated statistic.  That's all.  And the source of the statistic is an an individual representing an agenda-driven group hostile to the doctrines and policies of the LDS Church, an individual who - according to a comment by the article's author - claims to "[have] had personal contact with each of the families of these suicide victims," who is "likely the only person/place/institution that is focusing directly on these numbers," and who has purportedly "has assured them [the families of the suicide victims] privacy."

The reality of teen suicide is not in dispute.  An increase in teen suicide by LDS kids after last fall's change to the CHI, however, is in dispute (which change, I might add, was only made a part of the public consciousness because critics and enemies of the LDS Church harped on it for weeks on end and vilified the LDS Church to an extreme degree, and who therefore are substantially responsible for fomenting an environment of angst and distortion that may have contributed to teens struggling with same-sex attraction).

So no, an unsubstantiated, because-I-say-so-and-trust-me-despite-my-hostility-to-the-LDS-Church-'cuz-I-can't-reveal-my-sources assertion of an increase does not "make the case."

Thanks,

-Smac

Actually it's a delightfully clever tactic: not only are you an unfeeling, callous swine if you don't agree with me, you're an unfeeling, callous swine if you even ask me to substantiate my claims!

 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Nevo said:

Here's another study for Smac's collection:

• Gibbs, J.J., & Goldbach, J. (2015). Religious Conflict, Sexual Identity, and Suicidal Behaviors among LGBT Young Adults. Archives of Suicide Research, 19, 472–488.

From the abstract: "LGBT young adults who mature in religious contexts have higher odds of suicidal thoughts, and more specifically chronic suicidal thoughts, as well as suicide attempts compared to other LGBT young adults."

Did it specify what religious upbringing they tested?  There are some that would be obviously problematic in my view.  

We have the data that LDS teen males in general correlate to better numbers.  I can't remember if this is true for religious unbringings in general.  If not, then it has been demonstrated LDS are an outlier and one shouldn't assume that the protective nature doesn't exist for LDS LGBT youth until more data is collected..  If religious upbringing at an activity level that was meausred for LDS brings the same level of protection for nonLDS, then we need to look at what might be protective and see how that might be adapted for LGBT youth while removing what might be problematic....well, we probably can work on this without additional studies as we can always do better even if the 1/4 or 1/7 rate applies to LDS vs. nonLDS LGBT youth as well.

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, rpn said:

Calm, I have no problem with your just using snips of my post (too many here clip the entire thing, when a sentence or two would do).  But I do think that you cannot do that without putting the ... where you left things out.   The way you quoted me suggests that the last sentence is in the first two things, when those sources were secular.

My bad, I am usually more careful when taking stuff out of the middle of a comment.  At least I hope I am.   

I think the way I clipped Nevo's was okay.  Tell me if you think I should just automatically all the ... anytime I cut stuff and not just when stuff is in between.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Calm

[Calm]

6 hours ago, salgare said:

I gather these mama dragons might be comparable to Mothers against Drunk Driving, a group of people with empathy for the ones that are hurting, typically from very close family/friend situations.

And do you know what ... they were exactly like you or your wife with no sympathy let-a-lone empathy for those who suffer, until some tragedy struck close to home.

Why would you assume that the entire group of women had no sympathy until personal tragedy struck?  I know a lot of parents that have very little hardship in their family's lives and for that reason feel blessed and try hard to help others with great sympathy.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

The Church policy makes it even more difficult for developing teens that recognize they are gay and thus flawed and automatically an apostate if they act on their sexuality.  That is not love either.

It is if God said that acting on homosexual desires is apostate.  

And i agree that is horrible that the family kicked out their son.  I hope the bishop spoke to them in private about it, especially during temple recommend interviews.

[Hamba Tuhan]

55 minutes ago, rpn said:

And the secular world teaches that sexual identity is a social construct, when we know that it is an inherent part of who we are eternally.

I have no desire to derail this thread, but I do wish to go on record in opposition to this claim. I think you may have meant 'gender', not sexual identity?

[Russell C McGregor]

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Perhaps a study could be done to show why, in a state that is already 5th in the nation for youth suicides, there was a massive influx in suicides after November 5th. Obviously there could be no link whatsoever to LGBT suicides and a policy labeling them as apostates and even placing restrictions on their posterity. I'm sure they just don't understand how loving the policy really is. We should send missionaries to teach them. Problem solved.

Perhaps another study could be done to investigate why those who criticise the Church rely so heavily upon the fallacy of begging the question.

Has there been "a massive influx in suicides after November 5th?" Where is the evidence for this "massive influx?"

[Storm Rider]

In our stake, in the stake of our children, and in our neighboring stake here in West Virginia I have not heard of single  LGBT suicide since the policy announcement.  I join with Danzo that the deduction can only be a resounding success since the policy announcement.  

Lest we forget, the children affected by the policy are exactly zero.  There are no children who are primarily parented by a gay couple - who is also active in the church and which the same gay couple support their children to be baptized in the Church.  This mysterious, imaginary pumpkins are great for propaganda and for pushing an agenda, but they, unfortunately, do not exist.  

On the other hand, the Church of Jesus Christ does have members of all ages that self-proclaim to be LGBT or any of the other monikers affiliated with same sex attraction.  They are real; they are not imaginary or a fantasy for pushing an agenda. 

[Calm]

Don't know how to provide a link to a pdf, looks like a pretty massive metastudy involving thousands of cases:

Quote

 

PLoS One. 2015 Jun 25;10(6):e0131715. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0131715. eCollection 2015.

Religion and Completed Suicide: a Meta-Analysis.

Wu A1, Wang JY2, Jia CX3.

Conclusion:  Religion plays a protective role against suicide in a majority of settings where suicide research is conducted. However, this effect varies based on the cultural and religious context. Therefore, public health professionals need to strongly consider the current social and religious atmosphere of a given population when designing suicide prevention strategies.

 

Perhaps this current public discussion will spur specifically studied LDS LGBT so we can have some good data to work with instead of generalizing from general population, both of LDS and LGBTs.  Addressing problems by first finding out what the problems really are seems to me to be most helpful.

[VideoGameJunkie]

As I said in the where do suicides go thread, my uncle committed suicide in 2009 because he was a gay mormon acording to his note and he felt like a failure for that. So this story hits close to home, but I don't blame the church for my uncles suicide. I blame my uncle.