Reaching out to our Youth in Post-Policy Mormonism

[rockpond]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

Since there were purification rites they could have gone through that would have removed any religious penalty, imo their decision was solely based on personal convenience and a desire to not get involved.

I think that need for them to stay ritually pure is important to the parable and, at least part of, the reason that Christ chose to use a Priest and a Levite as those who passed by.  Remember, we only have identifications for the Samaritan, the Priest, and the Levite.

It would be personally convenient for anyone to pass by and not get involved.  Christ chose two individuals who had other reasons for not helping.

 

[Danzo]

2 minutes ago, salgare said:

Those are shocking numbers, but I'm somewhat confused.  Do you believe the mama dragons are numbering suicides from our stakes as well as in the open gay communities?  Of course we can not answer that question.  Not having researched and jumping to a conclusion, I assumed the mama dragons were numbering only members of the Church who were publicly known to have gender issues.

 

IF the "mama Dragons" want people to believe their numbers, why do they no publish their data?

Why the secrecy?

 

There are only 34 data points. 

You could put the death date, cause of death (from death certificate), Religious affiliation, location, evidence for their sexual orientation, if there was a suicide letter or other explanation of probable motive,etc on a small spreadsheet.

It might take all of an hour or two to compile.

[Daniel2]

Rock,

It's clear that the majority of responses you've received embody the type of reactions the author was attempting to avoid.  Most of what I've read in this thread are devout Latter-day Saints bristling at the thought that the church (as a group of believers) isn't doing a good enough job at helping LDS gay teens and young adults from committing suicide.  It appears they can't separate a call to compassionate action from the finger of blame and criticism.  Instead of spending more time worrying or focusing their posts in this thread about how to help teenagers avoid killing themselves--or even attempting to understand why or what could be done, throughout the body of the church, to better minister to such teens--they appear hell-bent on absolving the body of Saints, the policy, the way it's been handled on the church's side (which I only point out because they're positive that it was those critical of the policy who exposed it that are responsible for causing the resulting pain, instead of any possiblity that pain could be the result of the policy itself and/or the manner in which it's been addressed...), and what many seem to perceive as an overall deficit of empathy, compassion, or care from LDS leaders and the general membership from ANY and ALL possible contributions to feelings or motives which resulted in these kids' deaths.

In their mind, it appears that it's entirely black and white--either the church (it's message, leadership, and membership) is ENTIRELY to blame, OR the church is ENTIRELY innocent.  And, from what I've seen here, most active members posting here seem entirely convinced that anyone who raises suicides as a concern about which a discussion could prove at least worth having is actually just promoting a "political agenda" to cause the church to change.  It doesn't seem there's room for discussion about what kind of messages would be worth sharing, over the pulpit, in firesides, through home teaching or youth activities... nothing.  It's either "you're blaming the church and that's despicable," OR "the church and the LDS community are doing EVERYTHING possible to prevent suicide, and there's simply nothing left that anyone could do to prevent these kids' deaths."

And, at the end of the day, that's the message that the author of the article seems to be attempting to overcome.

Sadly, MDD is more concerned about defending the church, it's policies, leaders, and members, from ANY potential criticism (even when none is intended) than engaging in any type of discussion about how the church could possibly help.

The message that I'm hearing loud and clear is: We've done plenty to help these kids.  It's not our fault if our doctrines offend.  Because suicide is complex and caused by a complex interplay of numerous factors, we can rest assured that we (the members, leaders, and doctrines of our church) couldn't possibly be blamed.  And anyone who tries to discuss compassionate service to prevent suicides should be shouted down, shamed, and dismissed as the anti-Mormons they obviously are.

And at the end of the day, that just proves that gays and lesbians and their family members (be they children, teens, adults, or obviously the straight kids thereof) are clearly better off ANYwhere else than within Mormonism.

Edited February 1, 2016 by Daniel2

[Mystery Meat]

17 minutes ago, rockpond said:

What would the Priest and Levite have had to give up to go help the Samaritan?

Nothing. They just didn't. 

[rockpond]

2 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

Rock,

It's clear that the majority of responses you've received embody the type of reactions the author was attempting to avoid.  Most of what I've read in this thread are devout Latter-day Saints bristling at the thought that the church (as a group of believers) isn't doing a good enough job at helping LDS gay teens and young adults from committing suicide.  It appears they can't separate a call to compassionate action from the finger of blame and criticism.  Instead of worrying about the teenagers that are killing themselves--or even attempting to understand why or what could be done, throughout the body of the church, to better minister to such teens--they appear hell-bent on absolving the body of Saints, the policy, the way it's been handled on the church's side (which I only point out because they're positive that it was those critical of the policy who exposed it that are responsible for causing the resulting pain, instead of any possiblity that pain could be the result of the policy itself and/or the manner in which it's been addressed...), and the general lack of empathy, compassion, or care from LDS leaders and the general membership from ANY and ALL possible contributions to feelings or motives which resulted in these kids' deaths.

In their mind, it appears that it's entirely black and white--either the church (it's message, leadership, and membership) is ENTIRELY to blame, OR the church is ENTIRELY innocent.  And, from what I've seen here, most active members posting here seem entirely convinced that anyone who raises suicides as a concern about which a discussion could prove at least worth having is actually just promoting a "political agenda" to cause the church to change.  It doesn't seem there's room for discussion about what kind of messages would be worth sharing, over the pulpit, in firesides, through home teaching or youth activities... nothing.  It's either "you're blaming the church and that's despicable," OR "the church and the LDS community are doing EVERYTHING possible to prevent suicide, and there's simply nothing left that anyone could do to prevent these kids' deaths."

And, at the end of the day, that's the message that the author of the article seems to be attempting to overcome.

Sadly, MDD is more concerned about defending the church, it's policies, leaders, and members, from ANY potential criticism (even when none is intended) than engaging in any type of discussion about how the church could possibly help.

The message that I'm hearing loud and clear is: We've done plenty to help these kids.  It's not our fault if our doctrines offend.  Because suicide is complex and caused by a complex interplay of numerous factors, we can rest assured that we (the members, leaders, and doctrines of our church) couldn't possibly be blamed.  And anyone who tries to discuss compassionate service to prevent suicides should be shouted down, shamed, and dismissed as the anti-Mormons they obviously are.

And at the end of the day, that just proves that gays and lesbians and their family members (be they children, teens, adults, or obviously the straight kids thereof) are clearly better off ANYwhere else than within Mormonism.

Yes, that's the feeling I get from many here.

[Danzo]

1 minute ago, Daniel2 said:

And at the end of the day, that just proves that gays and lesbians and their family members (be they children, teens, adults, or obviously the straight kids thereof) are clearly better off ANYwhere else than within Mormonism.

Perhaps you can show us some evidence that the suicide rate for people with homosexual behavior is higher among active LDS than other groups?

I think that would be a much better way to engage this conversation.

 

[rpn]

I trust that within LDS circles the question isn't whether or not to love every child.   It is always and has always been how to love them.  How to see others and our own who are different than others.  Perhaps those who bring trouble upon themselves.

Assuming the best motives, this is a call to remind us that loving and lifting is more effective living in Christ, than pointing out another's bad decisions, or the types of their struggles or that their inability to see and do the road that will take them to peace.

I'm thinking it might be worth discussing how to support and love LGBT young people the way God would do it. 

Well, we know He wouldn't do it by encouraging such young people to marry according to their sexual desires and start families, because He has said through His prophet that will estrange them from the blessings of church membership.

He might do it by encouraging LGBT to see themselves as able to live healthy and fulfilling lives consistent with Gospel doctrine and to ignore the secular drumbeat that doing so is somehow limiting or makes them second class.   But the secular  LGBT support groups decry that as ugly, and inappropriate and unsupportive.

He might do it by saying positive things about their ability to overcome temptations and lives of service and kindness.   Secular LGBT support groups don't think that believing people can talk with kindness in a way that supports LGBT groups because believing people deny an LGBT's right to live fully, unimpeded and joyfully in their identity as LGBT.

Perhaps the unfathomable suicides are not because believing folk are not supportive enough, perhaps it is because the secular press, aided and abetted by LGBT support groups and not a few anti-mormons, have misconstrued the policy into something hateful against LGBT.   

Which brings us back to all of our need to reach out to our youth and help them know that we value them, whatever their personal failures or struggles, and that God did not send their spirits into their  bodies so they could fail at the plan.  That they have time to work out their salvation and they can and will because even if they believe no single mortal loves them, their Heavenly Parents and Savior know and love them in every moment, and provided the Atonement to heal their pain.

Edited January 28, 2016 by rpn

[Jeanne]

In a few years, it will be more straight kids (unbaptized) that won't want to turn their backs on gay parents..oh..well...but that is not what the essay is about either.  I am really  surprised and disappointed at the amount of venom about this article.  We all live on the same planet people!

[Mystery Meat]

7 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

Rock,

It's clear that the majority of responses you've received embody the type of reactions the author was attempting to avoid.  Most of what I've read in this thread are devout Latter-day Saints bristling at the thought that the church (as a group of believers) isn't doing a good enough job at helping LDS gay teens and young adults from committing suicide.  It appears they can't separate a call to compassionate action from the finger of blame and criticism.  Instead of worrying about the teenagers that are killing themselves--or even attempting to understand why or what could be done, throughout the body of the church, to better minister to such teens--they appear hell-bent on absolving the body of Saints, the policy, the way it's been handled on the church's side (which I only point out because they're positive that it was those critical of the policy who exposed it that are responsible for causing the resulting pain, instead of any possiblity that pain could be the result of the policy itself and/or the manner in which it's been addressed...), and the general lack of empathy, compassion, or care from LDS leaders and the general membership from ANY and ALL possible contributions to feelings or motives which resulted in these kids' deaths.

In their mind, it appears that it's entirely black and white--either the church (it's message, leadership, and membership) is ENTIRELY to blame, OR the church is ENTIRELY innocent.  And, from what I've seen here, most active members posting here seem entirely convinced that anyone who raises suicides as a concern about which a discussion could prove at least worth having is actually just promoting a "political agenda" to cause the church to change.  It doesn't seem there's room for discussion about what kind of messages would be worth sharing, over the pulpit, in firesides, through home teaching or youth activities... nothing.  It's either "you're blaming the church and that's despicable," OR "the church and the LDS community are doing EVERYTHING possible to prevent suicide, and there's simply nothing left that anyone could do to prevent these kids' deaths."

And, at the end of the day, that's the message that the author of the article seems to be attempting to overcome.

Sadly, MDD is more concerned about defending the church, it's policies, leaders, and members, from ANY potential criticism (even when none is intended) than engaging in any type of discussion about how the church could possibly help.

The message that I'm hearing loud and clear is: We've done plenty to help these kids.  It's not our fault if our doctrines offend.  Because suicide is complex and caused by a complex interplay of numerous factors, we can rest assured that we (the members, leaders, and doctrines of our church) couldn't possibly be blamed.  And anyone who tries to discuss compassionate service to prevent suicides should be shouted down, shamed, and dismissed as the anti-Mormons they obviously are.

And at the end of the day, that just proves that gays and lesbians and their family members (be they children, teens, adults, or obviously the straight kids thereof) are clearly better off ANYwhere else than within Mormonism.

Wow. Do you feel better now? 

[HappyJackWagon]

4 minutes ago, Danzo said:

IF the "mama Dragons" want people to believe their numbers, why do they no publish their data?

Why the secrecy?

 

There are only 34 data points. 

You could put the death date, cause of death (from death certificate), Religious affiliation, location, evidence for their sexual orientation, if there was a suicide letter or other explanation of probable motive,etc on a small spreadsheet.

It might take all of an hour or two to compile.

I'm sure grieving families want to provide "evidence of their [loved one's] sexual orientation". The point is it looks like there's a correlation between the policy and the increase in suicides. I hope some serious investigation IS done on this. Mama Dragons are not investigators. They're passing on information from calls they are receiving. It's hardly scientific or definitive and I think they acknowledge that. So their numbers could be off a little- up or down. Regardless, there appears to be a problem.

[rockpond]

8 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

Nothing. They just didn't. 

That's not true.  They needed to stay ritually pure.  The implication in choosing those two characters is that they had to avoid him for that reason.

[Danzo]

1 minute ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I'm sure grieving families want to provide "evidence of their [loved one's] sexual orientation". The point is it looks like there's a correlation between the policy and the increase in suicides. I hope some serious investigation IS done on this. Mama Dragons are not investigators. They're passing on information from calls they are receiving. It's hardly scientific or definitive and I think they acknowledge that. So their numbers could be off a little- up or down. Regardless, there appears to be a problem.

 

its only 34 data points?  Most if it should be publicly available information from news articles, obituaries, vital records, etc?

Why don't they give it up? what are they hiding?

They expect us to change our behavior and they don't even give us any information that we could use to change the behavior.

Were the children in active or inactive families?

Were the children active in YM and YW or were they not?

Were they from broken families?

Were the subject to church discipline?

were their families supportive?

All of these could help us change our behavior.

"Stop preaching and start loving" isn't very helpful.

 

 

[smac97]

So now Mitch Mayne and Affirmation are hopping on the blame-the-Mormons-for-suicide bandwagon: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mitch-mayne/new-mormon-policy-on-lgbt_1_b_9083714.html

He links to an article by Affirmation (also unsubstantiated, and from an unidentified source) that "there have been at least 32 documented LGBT Mormon suicides since the release of the new policy," and declaring that "the circumstantial evidence [that the policy "triggered" suicides] can't be ignored."

Well, then neither can we ignore the culpability of those who made a huge public hoopla about the policy, which would otherwise have made nary a ripple on the pond of the public consciousness.  The critics and enemies of the Church fomented huge amounts of ill will against the Church and falsely characterized the policy as an expression of hatred and animosity toward people with same-sex attraction.  But would the Blame-the-Mormons-for-Suicide crowd publish any diatribes about that?  Nope.

And what about the Netherlands Study I cited previously?  In that study the researchers found that "homosexual behavior significantly increases the likelihood of psychiatric, mental and emotional disorders, negating the mindset that society's lack of tolerance of homosexual behavior and lifestyle produces these psychoses," and that homosexual youth are "four times more likely to suffer major depression, almost three times as likely to suffer generalized anxiety disorder, nearly four times as likely to experience conduct disorder, four times as likely to commit suicide, five times as likely to have nicotine dependence, six times as likely to suffer multiple disorders, and more than six times as likely to have attempted suicide."  Would the Blame-the-Mormons-for-Suicide crowd published any diatribes condemning "homosexual behavior" as a causal factor in suicides?  Negative.

And what about the study I referenced showing that LDS kids "who closely adhere to the dictates of their faith are less likely to commit suicide than their peers who are less active in the church?"  Any diatribes from the Blame-the-Mormons-for-Suicide crowd against critics and enemies of the Church whose non-stop rhetoric has possibly encouraged some LDS kids to ditch the teachings of the Church, the teachings which, according to the a study published in the American Journal of Epidemiology, render LDS kids less likely to commit suicide?  Not likely.

Why not?  Well, my surmise is that pushing homosexual conduct and relationships into the realm of acceptable behavior in the LDS Church trumps all other considerations, including honest and fair-minded and non-agenda-driven assessments about causal factors in teen suicides.

It's the agenda against the LDS Church that matters.  Not the kids, who are just pawns to be exploited for rhetorical advantage.

To be frank, I suspect many in the Blame-the-Mormons-for-Suicide crowd, particularly the active LDS ones, have started out with good, if misguided and facile, intentions.  But in listening to the world more than to the oracles of God, they run the risk of ending up "as chaff is driven before the wind, or as a vessel is tossed about upon the waves, without sail or anchor, or without anything wherewith to steer her."  (Mormon 5:18)

So to my fellow Latter-day Saints, may I instead suggest that we exert every effort to reach out to those in need of help, and that we do so by adhering to, rather than rejecting, the counsel of prophets and apostles.  Let us in so doing "hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God."  (Ether 12:4)

Thanks,

-Smac

[stemelbow]

Ouch!  The policy was supposed to help these kids but it may be that it's hurting them (which is what some of us were saying back when it was first introduced).

 

Oh well, I agree we can't get too caught up in that other than to say, we ought to reconsider it if it's hurting people. 

[salgare]

7 minutes ago, Danzo said:

7 minutes ago, Danzo said:

IF the "mama Dragons" want people to believe their numbers, why do they no publish their data?

Why the secrecy?

There are only 34 data points. 

You could put the death date, cause of death (from death certificate), Religious affiliation, location, evidence for their sexual orientation, if there was a suicide letter or other explanation of probable motive,etc on a small spreadsheet.

It might take all of an hour or two to compile.

 

I'm sorry, I was not very clear ... I was responding to smac's Netherlands quote numbers ... I should have reference that better.

"According to a study in the Netherlands where homosexuality has been accepted and mainstreamed for years, homosexual behavior significantly increases the likelihood of psychiatric, mental and emotional disorders, negating the mindset that society's lack of tolerance of homosexual behavior and lifestyle produces these psychoses. Youth are four times more likely to suffer major depression, almost three times as likely to suffer generalized anxiety disorder, nearly four times as likely to experience conduct disorder, four times as likely to commit suicide, five times as likely to have nicotine dependence, six times as likely to suffer multiple disorders, and more than six times as likely to have attempted suicide."

As to mama dragons numbers, IF they can be compared to Mothers Against Drunk Drivers ... past numbers are not the point/focus ... saving future pain and suffering is the goal.  Like having a family member die of breast cancer and setup organizations for better education etc, in memory of those that paid a price to hopefully help someone in the future.

The reasons I have seen for the lack of information deal with privacy issues.  Like I say, I don't know much about these dragons, but there is a lady, kind of retired moderator from NOM that works very closely with suicide hot lines.  From what she wrote there the mama's have people that work these hotlines and it is from these calls and that tight circle of workers that come up with those numbers. 

[Danzo]

7 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

 I am really  surprised and disappointed at the amount of venom about this article. 

when you have nothing of substance to say, just call those who disagree with you venomous.  

It is a great technique for getting people to agree with you. 

[Daniel2]

3 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Perhaps you can show us some evidence that the suicide rate for people with homosexual behavior is higher among active LDS than other groups?

I think that would be a much better way to engage this conversation.

 

Honestly...? Does it really matter what the ratio is?

Will your compassion for gay LDS teens will ONLY become active if you first find out that they're dying at higher rates than non-gay LDS teens?

When Christ taught about ministering to the one, did he recommend making sure there was at least TWO others who were also suffering somewhere before leaving the 97 to get up and do something--anything--about at least one of the missing three...?

Sad that I have to provide it to you, but here's the best site I've found, including a free downloadable manual written exclusively for Latter-day Saints based on research among LDS families with gay kids called "Supportive Families, Healthy Children" which I HIGHLY recommend, as well as a list of peer-reviewed research about the higher risks of suicide among LGBT teens:

http://familyproject.sfsu.edu/publications

I'd encourage all here to check it out.  But based on the responses, I fear most won't, but instead will only peruse the info to dismiss the research as "despicable, politically-driven, suicide-opportunistic, anti-Mormon attempts" to blame the church and force it to change.

[smac97]

6 hours ago, Daniel2 said:

Rock,

It's clear that the majority of responses you've received embody the type of reactions the author was attempting to avoid.  Most of what I've read in this thread are devout Latter-day Saints bristling at the thought that the church (as a group of believers) isn't doing a good enough job at helping LDS gay teens and young adults from committing suicide.  It appears they can't separate a call to compassionate action from the finger of blame and criticism.  Instead of worrying about the teenagers that are killing themselves--or even attempting to understand why or what could be done, throughout the body of the church, to better minister to such teens--they appear hell-bent on absolving the body of Saints, the policy, the way it's been handled on the church's side (which I only point out because they're positive that it was those critical of the policy who exposed it that are responsible for causing the resulting pain, instead of any possiblity that pain could be the result of the policy itself and/or the manner in which it's been addressed...), and the general lack of empathy, compassion, or care from LDS leaders and the general membership from ANY and ALL possible contributions to feelings or motives which resulted in these kids' deaths.

 

And now Daniel2 is publicly accusing Latter-day Saints of not caring about teen suicides.

What a repellent, uncharitable bit of false accusation this is.  The Internet has Godwin's Law pertaining to Nazi comparisons.  I suppose we Latter-day Saints will have to endure our own special version of that law: "If you don't agree with us, you don't care about children murdering themselves."

Thanks for that, Daniel!

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited January 29, 2016 by smac97

[Daniel2]

11 minutes ago, rpn said:

I trust that within LDS circles the question isn't whether or not to love every child.   It is always and has always been how to love them.  How to see others and our own who are different than others.  Perhaps those who bring trouble upon themselves.

Assuming the best motives, this is a call to remind us that loving and lifting is more effective living in Christ, than pointing out another's bad decisions, or the types of their struggles or that their inability to see and do the road that will take them to peace.

I'm thinking it might be worth discussing how to support and love LGBT young people the way God would do it. 

Well, we know He wouldn't do it by encouraging such young people to marry according to their sexual desires and start families, because He has said through His prophet that will estrange them from the blessings of church membership.

He might do it by encouraging LGBT to see themselves as able to live healthy and fulfilling lives consistent with Gospel doctrine and to ignore the secular drumbeat that doing so is somehow limiting or makes them second class.   But the secular  LGBT support groups decry that as ugly, and inappropriate and unsupportive.

He might do it by saying positive things about their ability to overcome temptations and lives of service and kindness.   Secular LGBT support groups don't think that believing people can talk with kindness in a way that supports LGBT groups because believing people deny an LGBT's right to live fully, unimpeded and joyfully in their identity as LGBT.

Perhaps the unfathomable suicides are not because believing folk are not supportive enough, perhaps it is because the secular press, aided and abetted by LGBT support groups and not a few anti-mormons, have misconstrued the policy into something hateful against LGBT.   

Which brings us back to all of our need to reach out to our youth and help them know that we value them, whatever their personal failures or struggles, and that God did not send their spirits into their  bodies so they could fail at the plan.  That they have time to work out their salvation and they can and will because even if they believe no single mortal loves them, their Heavenly Parents and Savior know and love them in every moment, and provided the Atonement to heal their pain.

Rpn,

Thank you for one of the few posts that at least is open to discussion and proposing how the body of the church could improve.

That's a great start.

[Jeanne]

4 minutes ago, Danzo said:

when you have nothing of substance to say, just call those who disagree with you venomous.  

It is a great technique for getting people to agree with you. 

You have got to be kidding me...read the responses to a compassionate essay.  I don't have a technique ..I just tell it like it is  It seems like youth suicides has been turned into poor picked  on Mormons.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Jeanne

[Mystery Meat]

9 minutes ago, rockpond said:

That's not true.  They needed to stay ritually pure.  The implication in choosing those two characters is that they had to avoid him for that reason.

So God establishes law about staying ritually pure. That same God then tells story which says his commandment to be ritually pure was unimportant. 

I can understand your confusion.

Best of luck.

[rockpond]

1 minute ago, Mystery Meat said:

So God establishes law about staying ritually pure. That same God then tells story which says his commandment to be ritually pure was unimportant. 

I can understand your confusion.

Best of luck.

God establishes the Law of Moses.  Christ comes and puts and end to that law.  Christ then uses a parable to explain why we should choose love and service to our neighbor over religious dogma.

I'm not confused.

[Danzo]

15 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

Honestly...? Does it really matter what the ratio is?

Will your compassion for gay LDS teens will ONLY become active if you first find out that they're dying at higher rates than non-gay LDS teens?

When Christ taught about ministering to the one, did he recommend making sure there was at least TWO others who were also suffering somewhere before leaving the 97 to get up and do something--anything--about at least one of the missing three...?

Sad that I have to provide it to you, but here's the best site I've found, including a free downloadable manual written exclusively for Latter-day Saints based on research among LDS families with gay kids called "Supportive Families, Healthy Children" which I HIGHLY recommend, as well as a list of peer-reviewed research about the higher risks of suicide among LGBT teens:

http://familyproject.sfsu.edu/publications

I'd encourage all here to check it out.  But based on the responses, I fear most won't, but instead will only peruse the info to dismiss the research as "despicable, politically-driven, suicide-opportunistic, anti-Mormon attempts" to blame the church and force it to change.

My compassion for others is what it is.

This article asks for changes (without being specific) in order to change something, you first have to identify what is being done wrong in the first place, which is why I asked for data.

You said that Homosexuals are better off outside the church than in the church. You even seemed to imply that they would be less likely to kill themselves if they were not LDS.  I would like to believe that you were basing this on some data, and not just reacting out of emotion.

I read through the article you linked to. I did not find a reference to any studies showing suicide rates for homosexual children are higher among LDS than other groups. Should I assume that you are unaware of any such data?

 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2016 by Danzo

[CV75]

27 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Yes, that's the feeling I get from many here.

See how a thread such as, “How Can We Use the Parable of the Good Samaritan to Prevent Teen LGBT Suicide?” would have avoided such self-sabotage? Guilt-mongering doesn't work in communal problem-solving.

The article you linked to in the OP was not an "important read" for accomplishing that, and demonstrates a poor perspective on problem-solving in the several ways I pointed out. I think an approach similar to the one she used for the Ensign article would have been far more reasonable and effective. Does she still advocate for sexually abused children--at high risk for suicide also?

How would you address the problem differently than how you I said I am? How is what I said I am doing not addressing it? How are you addressing it?

[HappyJackWagon]

26 minutes ago, Danzo said:

 

its only 34 data points?  Most if it should be publicly available information from news articles, obituaries, vital records, etc?

Why don't they give it up? what are they hiding?

They expect us to change our behavior and they don't even give us any information that we could use to change the behavior.

Were the children in active or inactive families?

Were the children active in YM and YW or were they not?

Were they from broken families?

Were the subject to church discipline?

were their families supportive?

All of these could help us change our behavior.

"Stop preaching and start loving" isn't very helpful.

 

 

When you say "only 34 data points?" I hear..."only 34 suicides" as if that is acceptable. I'll assume this isn't what you mean.

From a teen obituary I've never read...

"Pat Poone died Saturday as the result of suicide after stepping into oncoming traffic. She was from a semi-active LDS family with both parents still living in the household. Pat was not subject to any church discipline at the time of her death but was from a non-supportive family. Though witnesses claim it is possible Pat accidently stepped into traffic, Pat left a suicide note stating that she was committing suicide as a direct result of the LDS church's recent policy stigmatizing LGBT individual's and their offspring."

Honestly? You think they include this kind of stuff in public records and obituaries. The majority of suicides aren't even listed as suicide on death certificates so it must be that they aren't really suicides.

ETA- instead of being so defensive perhaps it would be okay to simply express compassion and empathy

Edited January 28, 2016 by HappyJackWagon