Thinking Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 3 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: This is obviously just a hypothetical question, but if the church wasn't actually true, would you want to know the truth, or would you rather keep things the way they are, and not change anything because you want your life to be familiar and the same? For some of us it isn't hypothetical. When I first started having questions, I one day asked myself "What if it isn't true?" After I came out to my parents, my mother asked me to just "go with the flow" because she didn't think my wife should have to go to the temple or sacrament meeting alone.
omni Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 3 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I know it's become almost an article of faith amongst those in the Church of Former and Soon-to-be Former Latter-day Saints that the rest of us just don't want to know the truth, but seriously, I don't know a single Church member like that. Do you? I know a number of them and believe it's more common than you think. To tell you the truth, I can actually respect that line of reasoning. Deep down inside we all just want to be happy. If the comfort and joy the church brings someone outweighs the distress and upheaval in one's life brought about by a loss of faith, then perhaps it would serve them to remain in ignorance (hypothetically speaking of course).
JLHPROF Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 6 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: I only have other people's testimonies to go off of for my religious beliefs. That's all I've ever had. You don't have a testimony of your own?
ERayR Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 2 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: How do they know? If it's a feeling then that's a belief. You have obviously never felt the power of confirmation through the still small voice.
omni Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 3 hours ago, mfbukowski said: No clue where you are getting this. You must live in Utah. As a proud Utahn, I'm siccing Scott on you! 2
ERayR Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 1 hour ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Science has proven ice is cold. 15 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: I only have other people's testimonies to go off of for my religious beliefs. That's all I've ever had. VGJ to me that is sad.
JLHPROF Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Thinking said: For some of us it isn't hypothetical. When I first started having questions, I one day asked myself "What if it isn't true?" I've always wondered about this. People, especially ex-mormons, often ask members "what if it isn't true?" as if they start questioning it should make many cease to believe. By that same methodology why don't missionaries go out and just ask everyone "what if it IS true?" as if that would be effective in changing minds and hearts the other direction? The average atheist on the street wouldn't be thought deluded to say "I find your religion implausible, even a little crazy. No thank you." Why should the average member be thought deluded to say "I find your doubts and critiques implausible, even a little crazy. No thank you." BETTY STEVENSON: And they told me the most preposterous story about this white boy, a dead angel and some gold plates. (The Mormons, part 2). Why is it considered less crazy to believe there is no God, no priesthood, no ordinances etc than to believe that there is? Who gets to decide that agnosticism, humanism, evangelicalism, or any other ISM is more sensible than Mormonism? What if Mormonism is 100% true? Have we asked ourselves that lately? Edited January 4, 2016 by JLHPROF 2
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 4, 2016 Author Posted January 4, 2016 6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: You don't have a testimony of your own? I have beliefs, but unlike so many here, I don't have knowledge. I can't get up in F&T and honestly say I know 100% everything is true. I have some doubts, but I have beliefs so that's why I feel more comfortable saying I believe the church is true. I can't be honest with myself and say I know the church is true. I don't know how to get a better testimony. I've read scriptures, gone to the temple, prayed multiple times a day, done service for others, but I can only say I believe.
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 4, 2016 Author Posted January 4, 2016 2 minutes ago, ERayR said: VGJ to me that is sad. Well if a testimony could enter my mind and soul I would gladly welcome it.
JLHPROF Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 (edited) 8 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: I have beliefs, but unlike so many here, I don't have knowledge. I can't get up in F&T and honestly say I know 100% everything is true. I have some doubts, but I have beliefs so that's why I feel more comfortable saying I believe the church is true. I can't be honest with myself and say I know the church is true. I don't know how to get a better testimony. I've read scriptures, gone to the temple, prayed multiple times a day, done service for others, but I can only say I believe. D&C 46 13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world. 14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful. Do you believe the words of others? God seems to think that is just as worthy of eternal life. And note, God seems to have no issues using the word "know" where spiritual testimonies are concerned. Edited January 4, 2016 by JLHPROF 2
ERayR Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 6 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Well if a testimony could enter my mind and soul I would gladly welcome it. Well it is your choice to let it in or not.
omni Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 7 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: I have beliefs, but unlike so many here, I don't have knowledge. I can't get up in F&T and honestly say I know 100% everything is true. I have some doubts, but I have beliefs so that's why I feel more comfortable saying I believe the church is true. I can't be honest with myself and say I know the church is true. I don't know how to get a better testimony. I've read scriptures, gone to the temple, prayed multiple times a day, done service for others, but I can only say I believe. There's absolutely nothing wrong with saying "I believe". When it comes to these types of things I use the words "believe" and "don't know" much more often than "I know". 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 4, 2016 Author Posted January 4, 2016 2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: D&C 46 13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world. 14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful. Do you believe the words of others? God seems to think that is just as worthy of eternal life. Yes I believe the words in the scriptures. If that's just as worthy of eternal life then that's good.
The Nehor Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 "CAN'T YOU LEAD A GOOD LIFE WITHOUT BELIEVING IN Christianity?' This is the question on which I have been asked to write, and straight away, before I begin trying to answer it, I have a comment to make. The question sounds as if it were asked by a person who said to himself, 'I don't care whether Christianity is in fact true or not. I'm not interested in finding out whether the real universe is more like what the Christians say than what the Materialists say. All I'm interested in is leading a good life. I'm going to choose beliefs not because I think them true but because I find them helpful.' Now frankly, I find it hard to sympathise with this state of mind. One of the things that distinguishes man from the other animals is that he wants to know things, wants to find out what reality is like, simply for the sake of knowing. When that desire is completely quenched in anyone, I think he has become something less than human. As a matter of fact, I don't believe any of you have really lost that desire. More probably, foolish preachers, by always telling you how much Christianity will help you and how good it is for society, have actually led you to forget that Christianity is not a patent medicine. Christianity claims to give an account of facts -to tell you what the real universe is like. Its account of the universe may be true, or it may not, and once the question is really before you, then your natural inquisitiveness must make you want to know the answer. If Christianity is untrue, then no honest man will want to believe it, however helpful it might be: if it is true, every honest man will want to believe it, even if it gives him no help at all." - C.S. Lewis I agree with Lewis on this. Choosing beliefs entirely based on how pleasant they are to you or how much they help you is dishonest and dangerous. If it turns out that God is a fraud and Azathoth rules the Universe and we are all doomed to a life of pain and madness I want to know. If there is no God I want to know. Yes, it would be hard but living a lie is harder in the long run. 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 4, 2016 Author Posted January 4, 2016 That's the thing that's so weird about my beliefs. I should clarify. I have had experiences and a testimony that God and Jesus exist and love me. I can never deny God and Jesus because I have a special witness of their power and love. Where I have my belief instead of knowing is when it comes to Joseph Smith. I believe he's a real prophet and the church we have today thanks to him is true. But I know God and Jesus are real and love me.
mfbukowski Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 2 hours ago, omni said: I know a number of them and believe it's more common than you think. To tell you the truth, I can actually respect that line of reasoning. Deep down inside we all just want to be happy. If the comfort and joy the church brings someone outweighs the distress and upheaval in one's life brought about by a loss of faith, then perhaps it would serve them to remain in ignorance (hypothetically speaking of course). This is precisely what I am trying to combat In fact the ignorance is on the behalf of those who have insufficient understanding to understand what "loss of faith" is almost always based on- logical errors. Those who capable of understanding the philosophical arguments know that theists have nothing to "fear" from the arguments of critics- indeed many contemporary philosophers who happen to be atheists themselves understand why religion is unassailable for those who understand what it is really about. On another thread, Thomas Nagel was discussed briefly- the head of the philosophy department at NYU and a noted important philosopher, himself an atheist, who ends up confessing that he "hopes" there is no God because he knows that believing in God is just as reasonable as not believing in God. Essentially has has "faith" that there is no God and knows it cannot be "proven" either way. So it is the critic who thinks religious people are "in ignorance" who actually need some education.
mfbukowski Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 2 hours ago, The Nehor said: "CAN'T YOU LEAD A GOOD LIFE WITHOUT BELIEVING IN Christianity?' This is the question on which I have been asked to write, and straight away, before I begin trying to answer it, I have a comment to make. The question sounds as if it were asked by a person who said to himself, 'I don't care whether Christianity is in fact true or not. I'm not interested in finding out whether the real universe is more like what the Christians say than what the Materialists say. All I'm interested in is leading a good life. I'm going to choose beliefs not because I think them true but because I find them helpful.' Now frankly, I find it hard to sympathise with this state of mind. One of the things that distinguishes man from the other animals is that he wants to know things, wants to find out what reality is like, simply for the sake of knowing. When that desire is completely quenched in anyone, I think he has become something less than human. As a matter of fact, I don't believe any of you have really lost that desire. More probably, foolish preachers, by always telling you how much Christianity will help you and how good it is for society, have actually led you to forget that Christianity is not a patent medicine. Christianity claims to give an account of facts -to tell you what the real universe is like. Its account of the universe may be true, or it may not, and once the question is really before you, then your natural inquisitiveness must make you want to know the answer. If Christianity is untrue, then no honest man will want to believe it, however helpful it might be: if it is true, every honest man will want to believe it, even if it gives him no help at all." - C.S. Lewis I agree with Lewis on this. Choosing beliefs entirely based on how pleasant they are to you or how much they help you is dishonest and dangerous. If it turns out that God is a fraud and Azathoth rules the Universe and we are all doomed to a life of pain and madness I want to know. If there is no God I want to know. Yes, it would be hard but living a lie is harder in the long run. That's nice but guess what- it's unknowable except by the fruits our beliefs have in our lives. You may "want" it to be "real"- and surprise surprise who doesn't- but proving it is impossible. That's why they call it "faith". Quote If it turns out that God is a fraud and Azathoth rules the Universe and we are all doomed to a life of pain and madness I want to know. So who would not want to know?? If you can tell us how, pray tell let us know. 1
Thinking Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 3 hours ago, JLHPROF said: People, especially ex-mormons, often ask members "what if it isn't true?" as if they start questioning it should make many cease to believe. By that same methodology why don't missionaries go out and just ask everyone "what if it IS true?" as if that would be effective in changing minds and hearts the other direction? People will arrive at varying conclusions to both questions. I think that a serious seeker of the truth would ask both questions and try to find the answers.
The Nehor Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: That's nice but guess what- it's unknowable except by the fruits our beliefs have in our lives. You may "want" it to be "real"- and surprise surprise who doesn't- but proving it is impossible. That's why they call it "faith". So who would not want to know?? If you can tell us how, pray tell let us know. Proving it to others is generally impossible. More then a few people know for certain. Who would not want to know? The same people who invite you to dinner to bring you into an MLM scheme and shut you down when you point out it will never work and just trudge on ahead. Some people prefer delusions. I expect somewhere in the church there are people in it just for the benefits of it and believe nothing.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 7 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Here's a story of a Mormon who had a NDE and his experience. Read all the way through to get to his thoughts on how he believes religion is man made and that there aren't really different levels of heaven like Mormons teach. http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experiences/william_si's_nde.htm You mean where he says: "I know that the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is upon this earth today. I know that it was restored to this earth through a prophet of the Lord. I know there is a living prophet upon this earth today. I know this and I testify this, in the name of our Lord and Savior, even Jesus Christ, Amen." Or the following: "Religion, all religions, were created by man and man is the one that wrote and created the laws that govern how you should feel, what you should do and what you think. God is NO RELIGION, HE/SHE IS JUST GOD. HE/SHE IS THE GREAT I AM and that is it. We are a part of the Great I AM. That will never change. It doesn't matter whether or not what name He/She goes by, He/She is still GOD."
Teancum Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 (edited) 10 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Well, there's one, though I'd probably want to confirm with him for myself that he genuinely wouldn't 'want to know if the church actually wasn't true' or if he just doesn't want to have to counter a litany of criticisms from a friend. Either way... He says he does not want to know.... And anyone not willing to look at valid criticism (and most the issues a critic may bring up are valid to examine) of anything they hold to be true and correct really does not want to know. Edited January 4, 2016 by Teancum
Rain Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Teancum said: He says he does not want to know.... And anyone not willing to look at valid criticism (and most the issues a critic may bring up are valid to examine) of anything they hold to be true and correct really does not want to know. Or are just tired of critics bringing up yet another "valid criticism" to examine. Sometimes people do look at those again and again and again and find it doesn't change their faith. After awhile they find that the only thing it is doing is using time that could be best spent elsewhere. Critics often accuse others of not wanting to know the truth and fail to realize some of us do know already each of the things being brought up and it hasn't changed our faith. And when the "truth" doesn't change our faith then it must be because we don't want to internalize it, are dishonest about it or are just too stupid to understand it. After all they "know" just how I feel so they don't get that I can come to a different conclusion. Edited to add: I get that this man says he doesn't want to know, though it may be he is just tired of knowing everything because in the end he doesn't feel it matters. Edited January 4, 2016 by Rain
CV75 Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 1 hour ago, Teancum said: He says he does not want to know.... And anyone not willing to look at valid criticism (and most the issues a critic may bring up are valid to examine) of anything they hold to be true and correct really does not want to know. Experience counts for something... Using “Moroni’s promise” as an example, I do not think it is for those who want to know that the Book or Mormon is true any more or less than it is for those who want to know it is false. It is an exhortation for everyone regardless of his stance, and it is interesting to me that the question is, whether “these things are not true.” It is an appeal to those who want to know, period. And using Alma 32 as an example, I think the same principle applies. Whether we are inclined to like the seed or not, or have a desire to believe or not, if we are inclined to pursue knowledge, we muster up the desire, try the seed and find out what happens. It has nothing to do with wanting to know if something is true or not, or good or not, but of being disciplined enough to remain open to continually discovering “whatever” and keeping that which is true and good and casting the rest aside. It is a similar exhortation, to "awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words." Knowledge comes after faith and effort, and for the disciplined knowledge also instigates more faith and more effort. I also think it is a matter of choosing which discipline to follow: that which appeals to a little child before “that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth, through disobedience …and because of the [carnal, sensual and devilish] tradition of their fathers,” or that which appeals to those who would offend little children. Where do we go to find that which is true, and that which is false (whether we are inclined to want to know one or the other)? Nowhere, really; if we are "quick to observe," the light comes to us. We are given our “bounds and habitations” where the “light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not.” By virtue of the probationary state, we cannot remain neutral and unaccountable for very long, but "seek the Lord, if haply [we] might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us …For we are also his offspring.” This is why we stand in holy places once we comprehend the light and better discern the seeds to try.
JAHS Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 (edited) Quote Would you want to know if the church actually wasn't true? For an active latter-day saint there is no yes or no answer to this question because it is a loaded question. It assumes that one believes that it might be possible that it is not true. I only assume that it is true, backed up by my experiences living the gospel and by confirmation from the Holy Ghost. If there is a God that wants us to live by certain precepts in order to return to Him, in my opinion, there is no other religion that better conforms to what is found in the scriptures or that could be better for making my life happy and purposeful. Edited January 4, 2016 by JAHS spelling
rodheadlee Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 15 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: I do live in Utah and it's everywhere. Leaders have brought up in sacrament meeting how we're lucky to be in the one true church. 28 Yea, it shall come in a day when the power of God shall be adenied, and bchurches become defiled and be clifted up in the pride of their hearts; yea, even in a day when leaders of churches and teachers shall rise in the pride of their hearts, even to the envying of them who belong to their churches. 29 Yea, it shall come in a day when athere shall be heard of fires, and tempests, and bvapors of smoke in foreign lands; 30 And there shall also be heard of awars, rumors of wars, and earthquakes in divers places. 31 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be great apollutions upon the face of the earth; there shall be bmurders, and robbing, and lying, and deceivings, and whoredoms, and all manner of abominations; when there shall be many who will say, Do this, or do that, and it cmattereth not, for the Lord will duphold such at the last day. But wo unto such, for they are in the egall of bitterness and in the fbonds of iniquity. 32 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be achurches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins. 33 O ye wicked and perverse and astiffnecked people, why have ye built up churches unto yourselves to get bgain? Why have ye ctransfigured the holy word of God, that ye might bring ddamnation upon your souls? Behold, look ye unto the erevelations of God; for behold, the time cometh at that day when all these things must be fulfilled.
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