Hamba Tuhan Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 3 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: So you believe him because his story is so crazy to have been made up that it has to be true? Try reading again, please. Especially the following: 35 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Why should I trust reports of what other people have supposedly experienced over my own firsthand experiences? 12 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: 'If I had not experienced what I have, I should not have believed it myself'.
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 4, 2016 Author Posted January 4, 2016 1 minute ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Try reading again, please. Especially the following: I don't understand your point. You did not firsthand experience what Joseph Smith experienced so I don't understand your point.
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 1 minute ago, VideoGameJunkie said: I never believe people when they get up in fast and testimony meeting and say they KNOW all the stuff. I feel they should say they BELIEVE. So you KNOW somehow that other people don't really know when they say they do??? Quote Unless it's been revealed to them in a vision by an angel they are just believing. So you just BELIEVE that ice feels cold? Or have you had an angelic vision on that point? 1
Rain Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 It is NOT a Utah thing. It is a human thing and I get really tired of being told only the people in Utah are prideful, lazy, unfriendly etc. hypocrites. Would I want to know if the church wasn't true? Truthfully, no. Oh, I hunger for truth. I love knowing how things work. I would need to know the truth and want to live according to it, but I don't think I could ever apply "want" to it. I can say that because some years ago I had to pray over something. I had to question what I would do if I found ________ to be untrue. I came to the realization of what I could (not would) lose and it was everthing. And it was ok if I did since the Lord would be there for me. So at this point I say that I would never "want" to know the truth, but my depeest feelings would need to know it. 2
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 4, 2016 Author Posted January 4, 2016 13 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: So you KNOW somehow that other people don't really know when they say they do??? So you just BELIEVE that ice feels cold? Or have you had an angelic vision on that point? How do they know? If it's a feeling then that's a belief.
JLHPROF Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 (edited) 19 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: I never believe people when they get up in fast and testimony meeting and say they KNOW all the stuff. I feel they should say they BELIEVE. Unless it's been revealed to them in a vision by an angel they are just believing. I think it should be ok to say I believe. You got 5 year olds going up in F&T and stating they KNOW the church is true. Really? At 5 I didn't even know how to play Super Mario Bros. Complaining about the usage of "Know" where testimony is concerned is pure pedantry. To give your testimony is to witness for truths that have been revealed to you. If you believe it without any doubt that belief is sufficient in your mind to be called knowledge. And it is your testimony, not the hearers. If your faith is uncertain you can call it belief. If your faith is without any doubt you say it was revealed to you and is therefore knowledge. And it's nobody's business but you. Edited January 4, 2016 by JLHPROF 2
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 11 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: I don't understand your point. You did not firsthand experience what Joseph Smith experienced so I don't understand your point. How do you KNOW what I have and have not experienced??? A few more passages for you to ponder: Quote Joseph Smith's uniqueness can, I think, be understood by an analogy that I sometimes use to Henry Ford. Henry Ford wanted a car in every home. Joseph Smith was the Henry Ford of revelation. He wanted every home to have one, and the revelation he had in mind was the revelation he'd had, which was seeing God. So seeing God was what it was to be religious, and he sets about duplicating that original experience for everybody else, trying to come up with a system. One way to understand Smith is to say that he's trying to figure out which church is true, and he believes God comes to him and gives him this answer. And of course that becomes the model not only for finding out which church is true, but all kinds of other questions (Prof. Kathleen Flake). Quote And it came to pass after I, Nephi, having heard all the words of my father, concerning the things which he saw in a vision, and also the things which he spake by the power of the Holy Ghost, which power he received by faith on the Son of God—and the Son of God was the Messiah who should come—I, Nephi, was desirous also that I might see, and hear, and know of these things, by the power of the Holy Ghost, which is the gift of God unto all those who diligently seek him, as well in times of old as in the time that he should manifest himself unto the children of men. For he is the same yesterday, today, and forever; and the way is prepared for all men from the foundation of the world, if it so be that they repent and come unto him. For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round. ... For it came to pass after I had desired to know the things that my father had seen, and believing that the Lord was able to make them known unto me, as I sat pondering in mine heart I was caught away in the Spirit of the Lord, yea, into an exceedingly high mountain, which I never had before seen, and upon which I never had before set my foot. And the Spirit said unto me: Behold, what desirest thou? And I said: I desire to behold the things which my father saw. 2
Teancum Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I know it's become almost an article of faith amongst those in the Church of Former and Soon-to-be Former Latter-day Saints that the rest of us just don't want to know the truth, but seriously, I don't know a single Church member like that. Do you? I actually do. He is one of my best friends. I don't talk to him in much detail about the things that have led me to question LDS truth claims. And he tells me he does not want to know and even if the church is not true it is the best thing out there. and I actually respect that if that is what he wants.
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 (edited) 10 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: How do they know? If it's a feeling then that's a belief. So when you talk about ice, please say that you believe it feels cold. In my case, I'll say that I know it. I won't judge your belief; I'm hoping you won't judge my knowledge. Also, unless or until an angel tells you in a vision that other people don't really know things, maybe you should just say that you BELIEVE they don't know? Edited January 4, 2016 by Hamba Tuhan 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 4, 2016 Author Posted January 4, 2016 6 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: So when you talk about ice, please say that you believe it feels cold. In my case, I'll say that I know it. I won't judge your belief; I'm hoping you won't judge my knowledge. Care to expand on your knowledge and bear your testimony how you know it's true and not just believe it's true? It is fast sunday after all.
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 4, 2016 Author Posted January 4, 2016 Hamba read the NDE story I posted and then explain why you don't believe he experienced what he experienced.
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 (edited) 45 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Care to expand on your knowledge and bear your testimony how you know it's true and not just believe it's true? It is fast sunday after all. Not here, it isn't. That was yesterday for us. But I'm happy to express what I've learnt from repeated personal experiences with ice -- including on one occasion, when I was studying in Wisconsin, having broken a thin layer of ice late in winter, stripped my clothes off, and jumped into the ice-filled lake water. It's cold. I know it because I've experienced it. Do you believe me? Why or why not? Edited January 4, 2016 by Hamba Tuhan 2
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 31 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Hamba read the NDE story I posted and then explain why you don't believe he experienced what he experienced. Mate, how could I ever possibly know if another person really has experienced what s/he claims to have experienced? All I can know for certain is what I have experienced. 4
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 1 hour ago, Teancum said: And he tells me he does not want to know and even if the church is not true it is the best thing out there. Well, there's one, though I'd probably want to confirm with him for myself that he genuinely wouldn't 'want to know if the church actually wasn't true' or if he just doesn't want to have to counter a litany of criticisms from a friend. Either way... Quote and I actually respect that if that is what he wants.
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 4, 2016 Author Posted January 4, 2016 12 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Mate, how could I ever possibly know if another person really has experienced what s/he claims to have experienced? All I can know for certain is what I have experienced. And I would believe your experiences if you shared them since I tend to believe all people's spiritual experiences.
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 4, 2016 Author Posted January 4, 2016 16 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Not here, it isn't. That was yesterday for us. But I'm happy to express what I've learnt from repeated personal experiences with ice -- including on one occasion, when I was studying in Wisconsin, having broken a thin layer of ice late in winter, stripped my clothes off, and jumped into the ice-filled lake water. It's cold. I know it because I've experienced it. Do you believe me? Why or why not? Science has proven ice is cold.
juliann Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 If I only had a nickel for every time that question is asked. Putting aside the obvious problem that it is the gospel that is true not the church... here's the rub. How am I supposed to learn the church is "false?" Nobody who likes this question goes that far. Am I supposed to finally accept all the criticism and come to that conclusion on my own? It seems to me that those whose belief is enabled through spiritual means should expect nothing less than a spiritual message that it is all a big hoax. So, under those conditions, if the heavens testified the Church was false, cool. I'd want to know a better way. Now for similar simplistic what ifs... If you could be told the exact time and means of your death would you want to know? 2
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 1 minute ago, VideoGameJunkie said: And I would believe your experiences if you shared them since I tend to believe all people's spiritual experiences. All people's? I'm not sure that's the best approach, but I'm happy for you to find your own way.
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 10 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Science has proven ice is cold. Is that really why you believe?
Danzo Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 17 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Science has proven ice is cold. You had to wait until a scientist told you that? 2
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 And what if a scientist told you that ice actually isn't cold?
Sleeper Cell Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 48 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Science has proven ice is cold. CFR 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 4, 2016 Author Posted January 4, 2016 56 minutes ago, juliann said: If you could be told the exact time and means of your death would you want to know? Yes I'd want to know.
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 4, 2016 Author Posted January 4, 2016 16 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: And what if a scientist told you that ice actually isn't cold? Then they'd be a pretty weird scientist. Science proves things all the time.
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 4, 2016 Author Posted January 4, 2016 57 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: All people's? I'm not sure that's the best approach, but I'm happy for you to find your own way. I only have other people's testimonies to go off of for my religious beliefs. That's all I've ever had.
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