Would you want to know if the church actually wasn't true?

[Jeanne]

2 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

At very least there needed to be witnesses to the Book of Mormon who were prophesied on the pages of the book to testify to the reality of the plates.

Also, we have very little understanding of the miraculous phenomena that occurred as part of the translation process. So why jump the gun and deny the Book of Mormon is true just because the sketchy information we do have sounds strange and mysterious to our untutored ears. In addition, we have no idea whether or not the prophet studied the pertinent portions of the plates prior to using the sear stone to translate the portions he had previously studied. Until each of us are intimately familiar with the otherworldly nature of the translation process by doing some divine translation of our own, it seems to me it would be wise to reserve judgement on the matter until ALL the facts are in.

I have a problem with the witnesses...but not ready to go there yet.  I didn't throw anything away,, Reading the Book of Mormon many, many times, I took away and kept some good concepts..but I do that with a lot of my reading.  I believed it once Bobbieware.  I know where you are coming from.  The fact that you can have and keep your testimony is good for you.  It would be wise of course to wait and truly understand things as you say.  I was told that I had the fullness of the gospel.  A lot of damaging info with a disfunctional church family was a betrayal to me.  But enough said..witnesses I do have trouble with though.

[consiglieri]

Responding to the OP, I think it unlikely any practicing Mormon would say they wouldn't want to know if the Church weren't true.

But having said that, I think it the case that most practicing Mormons would nevertheless not entertain the idea seriously.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

I think about this.  To have men in the Book of Mormon write tediously on plates when the story could have come from God to Joseph by inspiration.  Perhaps it is meant to convey that they did it as a commandment but why have them to just take them away..and hardly used.

Besides Mormon and Moroni, we have no knowledge really of how much the records were used.  They might have been frequently referred to or studied by past prophets and leaders, maybe even by quiet royal or religious curators who felt blessed to read them when so few could have had that opportunity at that time.  Even if they were only used by Mormon, think of how sustaining reading the words of the prophets, of those who struggled to help their people just as he was doing would have been for both him and Moroni in his turn.  Think of how having a calling he was committed to would have given meaning to his own life during a time when he was struggling to see any purpose in it and the lives of his people since they had given themselves up to selfishness, cruelty and all around wickedness.  Knowing that his words would testify in the future to those who would listen even if there was no one beyond his son (as far as we know) that was listening to him them, yeah, a lot of work and I wouldn't be surprised if he treasured every moment of it and in the end it brought him great comfort as he was able to construct for himself a picture of how it all tied together.  Think of what a benefit it was to Nephi to be able to put his own thoughts and actions down as a witness of why he had chosen what he had done when he knew that many of his family question the value and wisdom of his choices, even the righteousness of them.   And Moroni living for years without any connection to his own people...save for the plates he carried and the work he did to record the final testimony that would come from them.  The plates were probably his most loved possession, his lasting companion, a place he could still hear the voice of his fathers and those who came before him.  Just as the weight of a child may be seen as wonderful even if hard and many a parent may hunger for the past when the chance to carry them is gone, I think the weight of the plates brought feelings of love and gratitude to Moroni for having to bear them, not frustration or suffering save in moments of extreme despair...and maybe having that responsiblity is what saved him in those moments.

Therapists tell people to write in journals all the time and people moan and groan about it, but most in my experience of those who force themselves to do it witness that it was one of the best things, if not the best thing, that the therapist came up with to help them through their concerns.  People write autobiographies for many reasons, but the most common from what I've seen (outside of the total ego driven desire to publicize oneself in some) is a desire for one's choices to be understood by future generations.  Others do it because they see their story of their struggles and successes and failures in addressing them as useful to others who may endure the same.  

I think the effort of record keeping would have been mentally, emotionally and spiritually beneficial for those who did it.  Doing it in such a time enduring way would have only added a greater significance to their efforts and thus a greater satisfaction or sense of achievement in completing them.  Joseph using them--even if they were simply there as a physical testimony to the reality of the people that wrote them---completed the circle of their work, gave great meaning and value to their struggles.  I think it is shortsighted to only fixate on what benefit they might have been for Joseph and what a hardship it was to construct them and to ignore what good hardships often can result in.  The plates of Nephi and others were at least as beneficial to his people as the plates of brass were and likely much more.  Think of what is lost when history is lost, think of what lessons have to be repeated, think of how disorientated a people can become (one only has to look at First Nation peoples to see how loss of identity can come from a loss of knowledge of one's history can lead to personal and social devastation).

Edited January 4, 2016 by Calm

[CV75]

1 hour ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

To see if the church is run by true prophets. I mean wouldn't having false leaders affect the truth of a church?

How does wanting to see if the church is run by true prophets play into wanting to know if the church actually wasn't true, after concluding it was?

[Bobbieaware]

49 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I am not answering here for Tacenda..but I am asking why would it bother the church so much if it took them umpteen years to really get it out there and Tacenda and I probably grew up with no idea and our primary pictures were with plates and the U and T...If it didn't matter..how come we didn't get that drill?

Joseph Smith testified that he did translate some of the Book of Mormom by the Urim and Thummim which he found with the plates. So whether or not he translated the remaining portions of the Book of Mormon with the Urim and Thummim revealed to him by Moroni, the artwork you say is in error in reality does depict true events. 

Read the following portion of canonized LDS scripture and understand that the artwork you decry as presenting inaccurate depictions of what took place during the translation in actuality does depict real events. So it appears some here have been making a mountain out of a mole hill and twisting their lives into a knot over nothing. Very sad.

 61 The excitement, however, still continued, and rumor with her thousand tongues was all the time employed in circulating falsehoods about my father’s family, and about myself. If I were to relate a thousandth part of them, it would fill up volumes. The persecution, however, became so intolerable that I was under the necessity of leaving Manchester, and going with my wife to Susquehanna county, in the State of Pennsylvania. While preparing to start—being very poor, and the persecution so heavy upon us that there was no probability that we would ever be otherwise—in the midst of our afflictions we found a friend in a gentleman by the name of Martin Harris, who came to us and gave me fifty dollars to assist us on our journey. Mr. Harris was a resident of Palmyra township, Wayne county, in the State of New York, and a farmer of respectability.

 62 By this timely aid was I enabled to reach the place of my destination in Pennsylvania; and immediately after my arrival there I commenced copying the characters off the plates. I COPIED A CONSIDERABLE NUMBER OF THEM, AND BY THE MEANS OF THE URIM AND THUMMIM I TRANSLATED SOME OF THEM, which I did between the time I arrived at the house of my wife’s father, in the month of December, and the February following. (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith)

 

 

Edited January 4, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[Jeanne]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

Besides Mormon and Moroni, we have no knowledge really of how much the records were used.  They might have been frequently referred to or studied by past prophets and leaders, maybe even by quiet royal or religious curators who felt blessed to read them when so few could have had that opportunity at that time.  Even if they were only used by Mormon, think of how sustaining reading the words of the prophets, of those who struggled to help their people just as he was doing would have been for both him and Moroni in his turn.  Think of how having a calling he was committed to would have given meaning to his own life during a time when he was struggling to see any purpose in it and the lives of his people since they had given themselves up to selfishness, cruelty and all around wickedness.  Knowing that his words would testify in the future to those who would listen even if there was no one beyond his son (as far as we know) that was listening to him them, yeah, a lot of work and I wouldn't be surprised if he treasured every moment of it and in the end it brought him great comfort as he was able to construct for himself a picture of how it all tied together.  Think of what a benefit it was to Nephi to be able to put his own thoughts and actions down as a witness of why he had chosen what he had done when he knew that many of his family question the value and wisdom of his choices, even the righteousness of them.   And Moroni living for years without any connection to his own people...save for the plates he carried and the work he did to record the final testimony that would come from them.  The plates were probably his most loved possession, his lasting companion, a place he could still hear the voice of his fathers and those who came before him.  Just as the weight of a child may be seen as wonderful even if hard, I think the weight of the plates brought feelings of love and gratitude for having to bear them, not frustration or suffering.

Therapists tell people to write in journals all the time and people moan and groan about it, but most in my experience of those who force themselves to do it witness that it was one of the best things, if not the best thing, that the therapist came up with to help them through their concerns.  People write autobiographies for many reasons, but the most common from what I've seen (outside of the total ego driven desire to publicize oneself in some) is a desire for one's choices to be understood by future generations.  Others do it because they see their story of their struggles and successes and failures in addressing them as useful to others who may endure the same.  

I think the effort of record keeping would have been mentally, emotionally and spiritually beneficial for those who did it.  Doing it in such a time enduring way would have only added a greater significance to their efforts and thus a greater satisfaction or sense of achievement in completing them.  Joseph using them--even if they were simply there as a physical testimony to the reality of the people that wrote them---completed the circle of their work, gave great meaning and value to their struggles.  I think it is shortsighted to only fixate on what benefit they might have been for Joseph and what a hardship it was to construct them and to ignore what good hardships often can result in.  The plates of Nephi and others were at least as beneficial to his people as the plates of brass were and likely much more.  Think of what is lost when history is lost, think of what lessons have to be repeated, think of how disorientated a people can become (one only has to look at First Nation peoples to see how loss of identity can come from a loss of knowledge of one's history can lead to personal and social devastation).

Thank you so much for your response and perspective.  I respect this very much and can see the possibility of reason here.  I do know that when I have found even old letters from ancestors how precious they are. 

[Bobbieaware]

29 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Joseph didn't show the witnesses the engravings of the plates though. He had a cloth over them and the witnesses claimed they saw them with their spiritual eyes only. It seemed the plates weren't used much. 

You trust your sources and I'll trust mine. But remember, each of the eight witness signed the following solemn testimony recorded in our canonized scriptures.

 "Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it."

[Teancum]

8 hours ago, Rain said:

Or are just tired of critics bringing up yet another "valid criticism" to examine. Sometimes people do look at those again and again and again and find it doesn't change their faith. After awhile they find that the only thing it is doing is using time that could be best spent elsewhere. Critics often accuse others of not wanting to know the truth and fail to realize some of us do know already each of the things being brought up and it hasn't changed our faith. And when the "truth" doesn't change our faith then it must be because we don't want to internalize it, are dishonest about it or are just too stupid to understand it. After all they "know" just how I feel so they don't get that I can come to a different conclusion.

Edited to add: I get that this man says he doesn't want to know, though it may be he is just tired of knowing everything because in the end he doesn't feel it matters.

Look...I know this person.  You don't. He does not know much about the things that could be considered problems.  And guess what I said already. I respect him and love him enough to leave it alone. The only time I ever say about anything about it is when he brings it up and challenges me with specious issues.   Then I ask him even then if he wants to talk about it.

Also I am fine with people looking at ALL the controversial issues and concluding that they believe the church is still true.  And I think I have never put anyone down for that even here.

[VideoGameJunkie]

2 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

You trust your sources and I'll trust mine. But remember, each of the eight witness signed the following solemn testimony recorded in our canonized scriptures.

 "Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it."

Didn't the signatures all have the same handwriting and were written down by one person?

[Jeanne]

3 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Look...I know this person.  You don't. He does not know much about the things that could be considered problems.  And guess what I said already. I respect him and love him enough to leave it alone. The only time I ever say about anything about it is when he brings it up and challenges me with specious issues.   Then I ask him even then if he wants to talk about it.

Also I am fine with people looking at ALL the controversial issues and concluding that they believe the church is still true.  And I think I have never put anyone down for that even here.

You are wise.  I wish that I had not asked that question to my Dad.

[Bobbieaware]

12 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Didn't the signatures all have the same handwriting and were written down by one person?

So do I take it then that you question the validity of the testimony of eight witness as found in the beginning of the Book of Mormon?

 An interview of John Whitmer by a Mr. P. Wilhelm Poulson is recorded as follows:

I said: I am aware that your name is affixed to the testimony in the Book of Mormon, that you saw the plates?

He-It is so, and that testimony is true.

I-Did you handle the plates with your hands?

He-I did so!

I-Then they were a material substance?

He-Yes, as material as anything can be.

I-They were heavy to lift?

He-Yes, and you know gold is a heavy metal, they were very heavy.

I-How big were the leaves?

He-So far as I recollect, 8 by 6 or 7 inches.

I-Were the leaves thick?

He-Yes, just so thick, that characters could be engraven on both sides.

I-How were the leaves joined together?

He-In three rings, each one in the shape of a D with the straight line towards the centre.

I-Did you see them covered with a cloth?

He-No. He handed them uncovered into our hands, and we turned the leaves sufficient to satisfy us.5

In late 1876 John Whitmer was answering Heman C. Smith, referring to the published declaration in the front of the Book of Mormon, and concluding, “That testimony was, is, and will be true, henceforth and forever.”6 Later, John Whitmer responded to an 1877 letter writing: “It is the same as it was from the beginning, and it is true. . . . I have never denied my testimony as to the Book of Mormon, under any circumstances whatever.”7

The eight witnesses saw, felt and hefted the plates. The three witnesses saw the plates, saw the angel, and heard the voice of God. Many other witnesses had real experiences with the plates as well. No one has yet been able to refute this. Those who wish to discredit the Book of Mormon must first overcome the testimony of the many witnesses of the Gold plates.

[VideoGameJunkie]

2 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

So do I take it then that you question the validity of the testimony of eight witness as found in the beginning of the Book of Mormon?

 An interview of John Whitmer by a Mr. P. Wilhelm Poulson is recorded as follows:

I said: I am aware that your name is affixed to the testimony in the Book of Mormon, that you saw the plates?

He-It is so, and that testimony is true.

I-Did you handle the plates with your hands?

He-I did so!

I-Then they were a material substance?

He-Yes, as material as anything can be.

I-They were heavy to lift?

He-Yes, and you know gold is a heavy metal, they were very heavy.

I-How big were the leaves?

He-So far as I recollect, 8 by 6 or 7 inches.

I-Were the leaves thick?

He-Yes, just so thick, that characters could be engraven on both sides.

I-How were the leaves joined together?

He-In three rings, each one in the shape of a D with the straight line towards the centre.

I-Did you see them covered with a cloth?

He-No. He handed them uncovered into our hands, and we turned the leaves sufficient to satisfy us.5

In late 1876 John Whitmer was answering Heman C. Smith, referring to the published declaration in the front of the Book of Mormon, and concluding, “That testimony was, is, and will be true, henceforth and forever.”6 Later, John Whitmer responded to an 1877 letter writing: “It is the same as it was from the beginning, and it is true. . . . I have never denied my testimony as to the Book of Mormon, under any circumstances whatever.”7

The eight witnesses saw, felt and hefted the plates. The three witnesses saw the plates, saw the angel, and heard the voice of God. Many other witnesses had real experiences with the plates as well. No one has yet been able to refute this. Those who wish to discredit the Book of Mormon must first overcome the testimony of the many witnesses of the Gold plates.

How could they see the plates if Joseph threatened Emma not to even peak at them. It's in the church produced movie that Emma was told she couldn't look upon them and there's a scene where she almost takes the cloth off but doesnt. What wouldve happened to her if she peaked at the plates?

[Zakuska]

2 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

How could they see the plates if Joseph threatened Emma not to even peak at them. It's in the church produced movie that Emma was told she couldn't look upon them and there's a scene where she almost takes the cloth off but doesnt. What wouldve happened to her if she peaked at the plates?

She would have turned to a Pillar of Salt.

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, Zakuska said:

She would have turned to a Pillar of Salt.

Or just not worthy.

[Teancum]

6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Either they or they justly do not trust the critic. I feel I am under no obligation to investigate every claim by someone once they have proven their willingness to misrepresent or lie to convince me. I have better things to do with my time like watching paint dry.

If I had said what you imply in your response it may have some meaning. But since I did not it does not.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Teancum

[Bobbieaware]

15 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

How could they see the plates if Joseph threatened Emma not to even peak at them. It's in the church produced movie that Emma was told she couldn't look upon them and there's a scene where she almost takes the cloth off but doesnt. What wouldve happened to her if she peaked at the plates?

Sometimes I wonder if you're actually a wise guy who's putting us all on.

Have you ever read the Book of Mormon? The answer to your confusion is found there. Joseph was warned to only show the plates to certain specific witnesses whom God would reveal to him -- and it turns out Emma was not one of them. This is all basic stuff with which the average member should be well acquainted. What follows is the Lord's word to Joseph Smith about who should and who should not have the privilege of seeing the plates.

 12 Wherefore, at that day when the book shall be delivered unto the man of whom I have spoken, the book shall be hid from the eyes of the world, that the eyes of none shall behold it save it be that three witnesses shall behold it, by the power of God, besides him to whom the book shall be delivered; and they shall testify to the truth of the book and the things therein.

 13 And there is none other which shall view it, save it be a few according to the will of God, to bear testimony of his word unto the children of men; for the Lord God hath said that the words of the faithful should speak as if it were from the dead.

 14 Wherefore, the Lord God will proceed to bring forth the words of the book; and in the mouth of as many witnesses as seemeth him good will he establish his word; and wo be unto him that rejecteth the word of God! ( 2 Nephi 27)

 

Edited January 4, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

How could they see the plates if Joseph threatened Emma not to even peak at them. It's in the church produced movie that Emma was told she couldn't look upon them and there's a scene where she almost takes the cloth off but doesnt. What wouldve happened to her if she peaked at the plates?

It was appointed to happen at a particular time and place.

Perhaps Emma needed that instruction to help her learn something.  She may not have seen them uncovered, but she moved the plates around and rustled the pages.  

What happened to Joseph when he wanted to satisfy Martin Harris (not an unworthy desire) more than the Lord?  He got chastised and for a time was removed from the work.  He fully repented and was restored, but only after some considerable heartache.  I see the same as likely happening to Emma if she had faltered (and when she did).

[VideoGameJunkie]

13 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

Sometimes I wonder if you're actually a wise guy who's putting us all on.

Have you ever read the Book of Mormon? The answer to your confusion is found there. Joseph was warned to only show the plates to certain specific witnesses whom God would reveal to him -- and it turns out Emma was not one of them. This is all basic stuff with which the average member should be well acquainted. What follows is the Lord's word to Joseph Smith about who should and who should not have the privilege of seeing the plates.

 12 Wherefore, at that day when the book shall be delivered unto the man of whom I have spoken, the book shall be hid from the eyes of the world, that the eyes of none shall behold it save it be that three witnesses shall behold it, by the power of God, besides him to whom the book shall be delivered; and they shall testify to the truth of the book and the things therein.

 13 And there is none other which shall view it, save it be a few according to the will of God, to bear testimony of his word unto the children of men; for the Lord God hath said that the words of the faithful should speak as if it were from the dead.

 14 Wherefore, the Lord God will proceed to bring forth the words of the book; and in the mouth of as many witnesses as seemeth him good will he establish his word; and wo be unto him that rejecteth the word of God! ( 2 Nephi 27)

 

I was never taught this in church so don't assume every member should know something.

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

I was never taught this in church so don't assume every member should know something.

You were never taught the story of the witnesses and that God chose them to fill that role?  That is rather surprising given the number of times I heard it in seminary, Institute, Sunday School and Primary.  Bad luck on your part.  Another reaon to study the scriptures on your own.

[VideoGameJunkie]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

You were never taught the story of the witnesses and that God chose them to fill that role?  That is rather surprising given the number of times I heard it in seminary, Institute, Sunday School and Primary.  Bad luck on your part.  Another reaon to study the scriptures on your own.

Maybe it's because I grew up in Boston and we only had seminary when I was a senior in high school, and was never taught about the witnesses of the BOM in Sunday school ever at any age or in primary. The only other person besides Joseph Smith we were taught about was Oliver Cowdery. Never even learned about Emma. Boston mormons must be horrible teachers then. And I had bad non medicated ADHD as a child so I never could concentrate on reading the scriptures until I was older. Where did you grow up Calm?

Edited January 5, 2016 by VideoGameJunkie

[Guest]

5 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Do you need a church to love God and show love to people on this earth and to do good in life?

No, but it from Churches (or the defining of doctrine) we recieve doctrine, and just as importantly fellowship with other believers. Were it not for different faiths, we would not even know of God, or have the written word that introduces us to him. 

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Maybe it's because I grew up in Boston and we only had seminary when I was a senior in high school, and was never taught about the witnesses of the BOM in Sunday school ever at any age or in primary. The only other person besides Joseph Smith we were taught about was Oliver Cowdery. Never even learned about Emma. Boston mormons must be horrible teachers then. And I had bad non medicated ADHD as a child so I never could concentrate on reading the scriptures until I was older. Where did you grow up Calm?

California and Illinois.  

Is it possible given the nonmedicated ADHD that you were taught it and just don't remember?  I taught a couple of kids with the same issue in Primary and their retention of the lessons wasn't as full as some of the other kids.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Calm

[VideoGameJunkie]

Just now, Calm said:

California and Illinois.  

You must have had better teachers and leaders. 90 percent of my YM/YW group growing up went inactive, that's why we didn't have seminary until I was a senior. I didn't really learn about church stuff and retain it until about 2013. Before then I always felt dumber than other church members and when posters here say I should know something that I don't it makes me feel even more dumb and uneducated.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

You are wise.  I wish that I had not asked that question to my Dad.

Why Jeanne?  I think he will have a better handle on it when he sees it in the Ensign article or church essay.  Or he may have already, and it won't be so shocking.  

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

You must have had better teachers and leaders. 90 percent of my YM/YW group growing up went inactive, that's why we didn't have seminary until I was a senior. I didn't really learn about church stuff and retain it until about 2013. Before then I always felt dumber than other church members and when posters here say I should know something that I don't it makes me feel even more dumb and uneducated.

That is very unfortunate.  I know my medications and sleep deprivation have really interfered with my memory..I feel like I don't even remember the first five years of my daughter's life, but just remember remembering it and that vaguely.  It is extremely frustrating and at times I feel cheated of my life.