stemelbow Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 The Church is many things. it's doctrine is a pile of uncertain conclusions ready to change or adjust on a whim. To say the Church is true or untrue is meaningless. No doubt we're so stuck swimming in the ocean of uncertainty we'd have no clue to determine what is true or not. We're just guessing. One's beliefs is just a bunch of hunches and opinions. If any one person's set of hunches and opinions line up perfectly with the Church's, I'd be surprised. To me it's not about whether the Church is true or not, such a binary view while we pretend to know anything is ridiculous. We're better off thinking as with everything there is something useful about Church and there is something un-useful. Individually we have to decide if the useful outweighs the un-useful. 1
mfbukowski Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 23 minutes ago, stemelbow said: The Church is many things. it's doctrine is a pile of uncertain conclusions ready to change or adjust on a whim. To say the Church is true or untrue is meaningless. No doubt we're so stuck swimming in the ocean of uncertainty we'd have no clue to determine what is true or not. We're just guessing. One's beliefs is just a bunch of hunches and opinions. If any one person's set of hunches and opinions line up perfectly with the Church's, I'd be surprised. To me it's not about whether the Church is true or not, such a binary view while we pretend to know anything is ridiculous. We're better off thinking as with everything there is something useful about Church and there is something un-useful. Individually we have to decide if the useful outweighs the un-useful. OR decide that in the realm of religion, useful = true By their fruits shall you know them 1
stemelbow Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 Just now, mfbukowski said: OR decide that in the realm of religion, useful = true By their fruits shall you know them Excellent.
Tacenda Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: OR decide that in the realm of religion, useful = true By their fruits shall you know them Or be damned if one decides it isn't useful? How useful is that?
mfbukowski Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 3 minutes ago, stemelbow said: Excellent. Also Alma 32. Sweetness = truth
mfbukowski Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 3 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Or be damned if one decides it isn't useful? How useful is that? Nobody teaches that. I do not know what church you were raised in but it is not LDS 1
The Nehor Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 3 hours ago, Teancum said: He says he does not want to know.... And anyone not willing to look at valid criticism (and most the issues a critic may bring up are valid to examine) of anything they hold to be true and correct really does not want to know. Either they or they justly do not trust the critic. I feel I am under no obligation to investigate every claim by someone once they have proven their willingness to misrepresent or lie to convince me. I have better things to do with my time like watching paint dry. 1
The Nehor Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 35 minutes ago, stemelbow said: The Church is many things. it's doctrine is a pile of uncertain conclusions ready to change or adjust on a whim. To say the Church is true or untrue is meaningless. No doubt we're so stuck swimming in the ocean of uncertainty we'd have no clue to determine what is true or not. We're just guessing. One's beliefs is just a bunch of hunches and opinions. If any one person's set of hunches and opinions line up perfectly with the Church's, I'd be surprised. To me it's not about whether the Church is true or not, such a binary view while we pretend to know anything is ridiculous. We're better off thinking as with everything there is something useful about Church and there is something un-useful. Individually we have to decide if the useful outweighs the un-useful. Indeed, why tomorrow the Church may announce that God does not exist or that Jesus is not the Messiah and we are still waiting or that priesthood keys are actually a fiction or that baptism is not necessary for salvation or the Joseph Smith did not see the Father and the Son or that temple work for both the living and the dead are entirely optional. Nothing is certain as far as the Church is concerned.
mfbukowski Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 5 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Or be damned if one decides it isn't useful? How useful is that? Can't you see how self contradictory that is? If it is not useful to you- don't believe it. If you don't believe it, you do not believe any claims that it makes about you being damned if you do not believe it "Drink Dr. Zingo's Magic Tonic, or you will turn into a pillar of salt" So now you do not believe that, and so you don't drink it. Do you really think you will turn into a pillar of salt anyway? Use your head!!
Tacenda Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Nobody teaches that. I do not know what church you were raised in but it is not LDS Well, it use to be in the early church. And the BoM. Sorry, I knew I'd get heck for using the expression of being damned. How about, put in a lower kingdom?
Jeanne Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 15 hours ago, Teancum said: I actually do. He is one of my best friends. I don't talk to him in much detail about the things that have led me to question LDS truth claims. And he tells me he does not want to know and even if the church is not true it is the best thing out there. and I actually respect that if that is what he wants. This is true for me also, My father laughed at me when I tried to explain about the seerstones/hat. He would not believe me and in front of my brothers told me to tell them what I had told him...I was so laughable. Anyway, the following day, I found a copy of what was in the Ensign a long time ago with the explanation of the seer stones and the hat. He read it but did not say anything. I said I was telling the truth. I then asked him if the church wasn't true..would you want to know? He screamed..NO! It is true and all of this is a lie. I wish now that I had not said anything. I need him to hold on to what he feels he needs. But there are members who don't want to know ever...anything deep.
thesometimesaint Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 Of course I want to know if it is true or not. Why waste my time on something false? But I have looked at other religions and I feel they are not true. If my atheistic friends are correct that it is just this like and then the abyss. None of us will know any differently anyway. They won't be able to say I told you so.
Tacenda Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 8 minutes ago, Jeanne said: This is true for me also, My father laughed at me when I tried to explain about the seerstones/hat. He would not believe me and in front of my brothers told me to tell them what I had told him...I was so laughable. Anyway, the following day, I found a copy of what was in the Ensign a long time ago with the explanation of the seer stones and the hat. He read it but did not say anything. I said I was telling the truth. I then asked him if the church wasn't true..would you want to know? He screamed..NO! It is true and all of this is a lie. I wish now that I had not said anything. I need him to hold on to what he feels he needs. But there are members who don't want to know ever...anything deep. I understand their hesitancy, it's not easy to not believe anymore, it's horrible. So I understand that those of us that don't believe, should probably leave be the members that do. I don't bring up much if ever of what I've found now, except on here. And other boards that everyone knows openly. Early on in my faith crisis, which it was...a crisis. I thought there were answers, when I brought up something about JS's wives with my visiting teacher. She nipped me in the bud, and said she didn't want to hear about anything against the church. This was several years ago, when I stumbled across the Joseph Smith's wives website. She denied it was true, and said she wouldn't want to know. But I think she had good reason, her brother and sister had recently left the church and probably told her a few things. Her brother sadly, took his life shortly after. This thing of disbelief, is a scary thing for a lot of people. And Jeanne, I'm sure you feel the same way now. To just let it be, they are happier without knowing sometimes, as your father. 1
Guest Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 It would be difficult and heartbreaking, but the truth is always better than a lie. The sad thing is, having studied the facts and history of other faiths...there would be nowhere to go.
Jeanne Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 It is to be noted that I, too, had the same reaction as my father when my daughter told me about the stones/hat. I screamed at her. Tacenda, I am familiar with your process and I went through a lot of quiet pains and sharing with very few. My RS president who I invited with the Bishopric to help me out with this..said she could be there but not particiapate because she was not "into" deep doctrine. Hugs to you...your journey belongs to you and learning is such a great thing. So much has happened in the church since I left in 2008. 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 4, 2016 Author Posted January 4, 2016 3 hours ago, JAHS said: For an active latter-day saint there is no yes or no answer to this question because it is a loaded question. It assumes that one believes that it might be possible that it is not true. I only assume that it is true, backed up by my experiences living the gospel and by confirmation from the Holy Ghost. If there is a God that wants us to live by certain precepts in order to return to Him, in my opinion, there is no other religion that better conforms to what is found in the scriptures or that could be better for making my life happy and purposeful. I felt the same way as you until I read the CES letter twice and started thinking what ifs.
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 4, 2016 Author Posted January 4, 2016 1 hour ago, Pa Pa said: It would be difficult and heartbreaking, but the truth is always better than a lie. The sad thing is, having studied the facts and history of other faiths...there would be nowhere to go. Do you need a church to love God and show love to people on this earth and to do good in life?
Bobbieaware Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 1 hour ago, Jeanne said: It is to be noted that I, too, had the same reaction as my father when my daughter told me about the stones/hat. I screamed at her. Tacenda, I am familiar with your process and I went through a lot of quiet pains and sharing with very few. My RS president who I invited with the Bishopric to help me out with this..said she could be there but not particiapate because she was not "into" deep doctrine. Hugs to you...your journey belongs to you and learning is such a great thing. So much has happened in the church since I left in 2008. Do you still believe Moses worked many mighty miracles by waving around a dead branch from a tree or do you no longer believe in any miracles where the scriptures say a material object was involved in bringing the miracle to pass?
Tacenda Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 10 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: Do you still believe Moses worked many mighty miracles by waving around a dead branch from a tree or do you no longer believe in any miracles where the scriptures say a material object was involved in bringing the miracle to pass? Do you think the lessons in Sunday School this year will even mention the seerstones vs the gold plates as the only method of translation besides the first 116 pages? I kind of think not. Even if there's an essay on LDS.org and it was talked about in October 2015's Ensign. Hope someone proves me wrong.
Avatar4321 Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 Of course I would. Because I want to know the truth. In fact that's why I studied and sought the Lord to begin with. And when the Lord revealed to me that it was true, that's why I follow it. The real question is do you want to know if it's true. Because it's a much more faithful way of asking the same question
Avatar4321 Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 19 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: But what if in God's eyes it doesn't even matter what religion we are? We Mormons like to puff ourselves up and boast that we're the ONLY correct religion. Seems to me you need to find out the will of the Lord instead of just asking what if God wants something else. Humbling yourself is a good start
stemelbow Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 3 hours ago, The Nehor said: Indeed, why tomorrow the Church may announce that God does not exist or that Jesus is not the Messiah and we are still waiting or that priesthood keys are actually a fiction or that baptism is not necessary for salvation or the Joseph Smith did not see the Father and the Son or that temple work for both the living and the dead are entirely optional. Nothing is certain as far as the Church is concerned. When we want to make each proposed teaching connected as we often do this does seem to be a problem. Something falls and people start questioning whether there is a God and all that. Instead of treating the Church as being true we should probably be simple enough to determine what teachings are of use or not.
Jeanne Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 38 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: Do you still believe Moses worked many mighty miracles by waving around a dead branch from a tree or do you no longer believe in any miracles where the scriptures say a material object was involved in bringing the miracle to pass? I don't think so. I believe in the lessons learned in Bible stories,
Jeanne Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 38 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: Do you still believe Moses worked many mighty miracles by waving around a dead branch from a tree or do you no longer believe in any miracles where the scriptures say a material object was involved in bringing the miracle to pass? I don't think so. I believe in the lessons learned in Bible stories,
CV75 Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 1 hour ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Do you need a church to love God and show love to people on this earth and to do good in life? Where “church” is broadly defined as organization of like disciples (“kingdom of God”), it depends on which kingdom you determine you need to live in: “All kingdoms have a law given; And there are many kingdoms … And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions.” So take your pick! What do you need, and what law must you believe and practice to obtain what you need? In some instances like the resurrection, some may say they haven’t a need, but they will have it filled anyway! Here is what LDS say we need the Church for: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/10/why-the-church?lang=eng
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