Would you want to know if the church actually wasn't true?

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

That is very unfortunate.  I know my medications and sleep deprivation have really interfered with my memory..I feel like I don't even remember the first five years of my daughter's life, but just remember remembering it and that vaguely.  It is extremely frustrating and at times I feel cheated of my life.

I hear ya!  

[VideoGameJunkie]

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

California and Illinois.  

Is it possible given the nonmedicated ADHD that you were taught it and just don't remember?  I taught a couple of kids with the same issue in Primary and their retention of the lessons wasn't as full as some of the other kids.

It's possible I just didn't retain it. That always happened as I struggled through school as well. I could never retain what I just read when I'd read an assigned book.

[VideoGameJunkie]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

That is very unfortunate.  I know my medications and sleep deprivation have really interfered with my memory..I feel like I don't even remember the first five years of my daughter's life, but just remember remembering it and that vaguely.  It is extremely frustrating and at times I feel cheated of my life.

Ya, now since I've been better medicated since 2013 I can finally read and learn and retain what I read. My previous 27 years I couldnt. I know someone similar, my massage therapist for my back is dyslexic and she says she can't read scriptures the way they're written so she listens to them on tape.

[Jeanne]

16 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Why Jeanne?  I think he will have a better handle on it when he sees it in the Ensign article or church essay.  Or he may have already, and it won't be so shocking.  

The thing is, he doesn't even know there are essays.  All he has is his belief.  He is 94 years old and can hardly see.  So...although there was no harm done, I wish that I had just left it alone.  He can't get to church anymore as he refuses to go anywhere but my hometown and he doesn't live there anymore.  That being said, at the time of our seer stone conversation, it was important to me that he would not think that I would lie about something like that.  For Dad..(bless his heart) if Monson told him the sky was going to be purple all day..it is purple!

[Jeanne]

22 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Why Jeanne?  I think he will have a better handle on it when he sees it in the Ensign article or church essay.  Or he may have already, and it won't be so shocking.  

The thing is, he doesn't even know there are essays.  All he has is his belief.  He is 94 years old and can hardly see.  So...although there was no harm done, I wish that I had just left it alone.  He can't get to church anymore as he refuses to go anywhere but my hometown and he doesn't live there anymore.  That being said, at the time of our seer stone conversation, it was important to me that he would not think that I would lie about something like that.  For Dad..(bless his heart) if Monson told him the sky was going to be purple all day..it is purple!I don't know why this keeps posting twice,  It only does it when it says "saving" in the lower left hand corner...I hate repeating myself...

Edited January 5, 2016 by Jeanne

[Calm]

18 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

It's possible I just didn't retain it. That always happened as I struggled through school as well. I could never retain what I just read when I'd read an assigned book.

Reading was my major activity before getting married and still a major part of it afterwards, especially when I wouldn't sleep at night.  And I had almost perfect recall of what I read.  Then a second pregnancy and a misdiagnosis with the wrong drug treatment happened and suddenly not only couldn't I remember what I had read many a time, it got to the point I couldn't read at all, I was so jittery and unfocused.  Ended up playing computer games to pass the hours away at night to keep my sanity.  Then in about 2000 found that reading online was easier (think the light) and drugs have improved so now can read stuff in short bursts.  Not have so fun as snuggling up with a good book though.  

And I have to read something several times to retain it.  It is very humbling and I try to remember I still have it tons better than many people who have learning challenges.  

I wish there was a way we could take a harmless drug or something that would allow us to experience the same thing for a few days what those with disorders or other limitations go through as we often miss how such things impact people's lives, especially in long term cases and too often assume it is just like something we've gone through, only more of it when comparing acute or mild cases to chronic or severe ones...though knowing it would end would change the experience so even that wouldn't be the same.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Calm

[Jeanne]

19 minutes ago, Calm said:

That is very unfortunate.  I know my medications and sleep deprivation have really interfered with my memory..I feel like I don't even remember the first five years of my daughter's life, but just remember remembering it and that vaguely.  It is extremely frustrating and at times I feel cheated of my life.

And yet Calm, on this board you have one of the most keenest minds.  I wish I had half your knowledge. 

[Avatar4321]

21 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Then they'd be a pretty weird scientist. Science proves things all the time.

no it doesn't. In fact very few things have been proven. There is certainly strong evidence for things but science doesn't prove things.

[Avatar4321]

21 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

I only have other people's testimonies to go off of for my religious beliefs. That's all I've ever had.

then perhaps it's time to talk to the Lord and get your own knowledge

[VideoGameJunkie]

3 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

then perhaps it's time to talk to the Lord and get your own knowledge

You don't think I've tried that? 

[Calm]

29 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

And yet Calm, on this board you have one of the most keenest minds.  I wish I had half your knowledge. 

Leftovers...think of how brilliant I used to be.

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

You don't think I've tried that? 

Rather than trying to get what others have, hopefully you will be able to find what brings you comfort and peace or at least a sense of direction and commitment if you don't have it already.  I've gone through multiple stages in my life where I have had to try and find new ways of experiencing the Spirit.  I don't really listen to how others tell how it works for them or they understand it, I let my own whatever it might be speak to me.  I think my biggest advantage/significant spiritual quality is my ability to trust God and that took a bit of time to develop because in many ways I don't have that ability to trust others or myself as I know we are all too human.

[Stargazer]

In a word, No.

If the Church's truth claims are not borne out by them actually being true, then absent an alternative that is actually true, what use is the truth that the Church is false?  If there is no true Church, or religion upon the face of the earth, and especially if there is no true religion due to the fact that there is no God and no afterlife, then what the bloody heck good does it do me to know this?  My membership in the Church has been overwhelmingly positive in so many respects I can hardly name them all.  My membership in the Church has benefited not only me, but mankind in general, both through my work in the Church and through my financial support of the Church.  Why would I want to lose all these benefits, just so I could "enjoy" the truth that this life was all there is, and afterwards comes extinction?  I'd rather be deceived than deal with that.  

Mere truth for the sake of truth, with no actual utility in the knowledge is pointless.  To a degree, anyway.  I'd love to know some things that would do me no earthly good to know, so perhaps I shouldn't be so hasty, but ...

[Stargazer]

On 1/4/2016 at 4:23 PM, VideoGameJunkie said:

There are several first hand Near Death Experiences, including my own aunt and close female friend's grandma, who have been clinically and legally dead and experienced the other side and have claimed all religion is man made and that love is all that matters, not what religion you are. So would finding out that no religion matters since they're just creations of men, be a shocker in your life? It's possible we all have it wrong since God has no religion and loves all His children equally.

If love is all you need, there's still no reason why you can't be more efficient at it by expressing that love through an institution, such as a church that allows you organize and focus your efforts.

Now, in their NDEs who told these two women that all religion is manmade, anyway?  Some authority?  If no-one told them, then how did they know this?  And on top of everything else, these two NDEs confirm wonderfully what Paul wrote about charity (the pure love of Christ).  Personally, I think they jumped to conclusions about religion.

I would be surprised to discover through an NDE that the Church is true.  Such an NDE would effectively chop my free agency off at the knees because now I would have faith no longer, but would know.  The Lord doesn't do Brother-of-Jared-style epiphanies very often, for just that reason.

[VideoGameJunkie]

9 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

In a word, No.

If the Church's truth claims are not borne out by them actually being true, then absent an alternative that is actually true, what use is the truth that the Church is false?  If there is no true Church, or religion upon the face of the earth, and especially if there is no true religion due to the fact that there is no God and no afterlife, then what the bloody heck good does it do me to know this?  My membership in the Church has been overwhelmingly positive in so many respects I can hardly name them all.  My membership in the Church has benefited not only me, but mankind in general, both through my work in the Church and through my financial support of the Church.  Why would I want to lose all these benefits, just so I could "enjoy" the truth that this life was all there is, and afterwards comes extinction?  I'd rather be deceived than deal with that.  

Mere truth for the sake of truth, with no actual utility in the knowledge is pointless.  To a degree, anyway.  I'd love to know some things that would do me no earthly good to know, so perhaps I shouldn't be so hasty, but ...

If there was no true religion, that wouldn't mean there was no God or an afterlife. The point I made earlier is God loves all of His children equally and doesn't care what religion you are. I feel we do the religion thing for Jesus, since this is Jesus' church. Heavenly Father has no religion, but Jesus does.

[VideoGameJunkie]

3 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

If love is all you need, there's still no reason why you can't be more efficient at it by expressing that love through an institution, such as a church that allows you organize and focus your efforts.

Now, in their NDEs who told these two women that all religion is manmade, anyway?  Some authority?  If no-one told them, then how did they know this?  And on top of everything else, these two NDEs confirm wonderfully what Paul wrote about charity (the pure love of Christ).  Personally, I think they jumped to conclusions about religion.

I would be surprised to discover through an NDE that the Church is true.  Such an NDE would effectively chop my free agency off at the knees because now I would have faith no longer, but would know.  The Lord doesn't do Brother-of-Jared-style epiphanies very often, for just that reason.

Everyone who gets up in sacrament meeting says they know, yet they still have faith.

[Stargazer]

On 1/4/2016 at 5:15 PM, VideoGameJunkie said:

I never believe people when they get up in fast and testimony meeting and say they KNOW all the stuff. I feel they should say they BELIEVE. Unless it's been revealed to them in a vision by an angel they are just believing. I think it should be ok to say I believe. You got 5 year olds going up in F&T and stating they KNOW the church is true. Really? At 5 I didn't even know how to play Super Mario Bros.

Do you actually know how many of them who get up and say "I know" who haven't had visions?  Nobody who has had visions just ups and casually announces it at F&T meeting.

But at five you knew how to walk.  You knew your parents loved you, I hope.

[VideoGameJunkie]

9 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Do you actually know how many of them who get up and say "I know" who haven't had visions?  Nobody who has had visions just ups and casually announces it at F&T meeting.

But at five you knew how to walk.  You knew your parents loved you, I hope.

But these children are lead up by their parents and the parents whisper in their ears what to say about knowing the church is true and starting that young it leads to a lifetime of believing what you're saying if you repeat it enough. My mom never had me get up in F&T meeting.

[Stargazer]

27 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

But these children are lead up by their parents and the parents whisper in their ears what to say about knowing the church is true and starting that young it leads to a lifetime of believing what you're saying if you repeat it enough. My mom never had me get up in F&T meeting.

We never had our children get up in F&T meeting, but they sometimes went up on their own initiative, and in early days they dragged us with them and at their request gave them words to say.  I will confess that sometimes the words we gave them included "I know the Church is true."  It seemed that those words were what they were wanting to say.

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, Teancum said:

If I had said what you imply in your response it may have some meaning. But since I did not it does not.

It is not all about you.

Edited January 5, 2016 by The Nehor

[JAHS]

"Would you want to know if the church actually wasn't true?"

This question reminds me of the one where you are asked, "Have you stopped beating your wife?

You can't respond Yes or No to it. When it comes to religion it' all a matter of faith anyway.

The only way we could know for sure it wasn't true is if Joseph Smith came back and confessed he made it all up;
which is never going to happen, so I am going to stick with it.

[salgare]

was the site down for everyone earlier today? It was pretty crazy for me

[Avatar4321]

On 1/4/2016 at 2:58 PM, VideoGameJunkie said:

Was Joseph Smith the only seer and translator in our church's history, because no one since him has attempted to translate or use powers to write anything. Don't we sustain all the Q15 as prophets, seers, and revelators?

We have a whole department of translators at the church's hq translating scriptures to other languages throughout the world.

[Avatar4321]

On 1/4/2016 at 4:23 PM, VideoGameJunkie said:

Joseph didn't show the witnesses the engravings of the plates though. He had a cloth over them and the witnesses claimed they saw them with their spiritual eyes only. It seemed the plates weren't used much. 

That's not what he witnesses said

[Avatar4321]

On 1/4/2016 at 4:41 PM, Calm said:

Besides Mormon and Moroni, we have no knowledge really of how much the records were used.  They might have been frequently referred to or studied by past prophets and leaders, maybe even by quiet royal or religious curators who felt blessed to read them when so few could have had that opportunity at that time.  Even if they were only used by Mormon, think of how sustaining reading the words of the prophets, of those who struggled to help their people just as he was doing would have been for both him and Moroni in his turn.  Think of how having a calling he was committed to would have given meaning to his own life during a time when he was struggling to see any purpose in it and the lives of his people since they had given themselves up to selfishness, cruelty and all around wickedness.  Knowing that his words would testify in the future to those who would listen even if there was no one beyond his son (as far as we know) that was listening to him them, yeah, a lot of work and I wouldn't be surprised if he treasured every moment of it and in the end it brought him great comfort as he was able to construct for himself a picture of how it all tied together.  Think of what a benefit it was to Nephi to be able to put his own thoughts and actions down as a witness of why he had chosen what he had done when he knew that many of his family question the value and wisdom of his choices, even the righteousness of them.   And Moroni living for years without any connection to his own people...save for the plates he carried and the work he did to record the final testimony that would come from them.  The plates were probably his most loved possession, his lasting companion, a place he could still hear the voice of his fathers and those who came before him.  Just as the weight of a child may be seen as wonderful even if hard and many a parent may hunger for the past when the chance to carry them is gone, I think the weight of the plates brought feelings of love and gratitude to Moroni for having to bear them, not frustration or suffering save in moments of extreme despair...and maybe having that responsiblity is what saved him in those moments.

Therapists tell people to write in journals all the time and people moan and groan about it, but most in my experience of those who force themselves to do it witness that it was one of the best things, if not the best thing, that the therapist came up with to help them through their concerns.  People write autobiographies for many reasons, but the most common from what I've seen (outside of the total ego driven desire to publicize oneself in some) is a desire for one's choices to be understood by future generations.  Others do it because they see their story of their struggles and successes and failures in addressing them as useful to others who may endure the same.  

I think the effort of record keeping would have been mentally, emotionally and spiritually beneficial for those who did it.  Doing it in such a time enduring way would have only added a greater significance to their efforts and thus a greater satisfaction or sense of achievement in completing them.  Joseph using them--even if they were simply there as a physical testimony to the reality of the people that wrote them---completed the circle of their work, gave great meaning and value to their struggles.  I think it is shortsighted to only fixate on what benefit they might have been for Joseph and what a hardship it was to construct them and to ignore what good hardships often can result in.  The plates of Nephi and others were at least as beneficial to his people as the plates of brass were and likely much more.  Think of what is lost when history is lost, think of what lessons have to be repeated, think of how disorientated a people can become (one only has to look at First Nation peoples to see how loss of identity can come from a loss of knowledge of one's history can lead to personal and social devastation).

This post is truly a gem on this thread