kryoung1983 Posted December 12, 2015 Posted December 12, 2015 I believe that most things in the gospel make logical sense. But the concept of no beginning, that is something that is hard to wrap your head around. Joseph Smith said in the sermon in the grove that, "If Abraham reasoned thus-If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly, Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it." I remember that Brigham Young once remarked that he didn't know how many gods there were, but there was never a time when there were not gods doing what our father is doing. So how is this possible? Is there any scientific or logical answers that could make this possible? Perhaps related to other dimensions? Is our concept of time false. I was thinking that perhaps the effects of the atonement are not linear. If so what would be the relationship between say the atonement and the nature of time? I am way out of my depth here but maybe there are people more intelligent than I that might have some theories.
Sanpitch Posted December 12, 2015 Posted December 12, 2015 (edited) It all began out near the end of space and at the beginning of time. Which is nonsense of course because there is no end of space and no beginning of time and no one knows or will ever know the answers. I've thought much on this subject and the more you think about it the more mysterious it becomes, like how far a billion light years is. That is completely beyond our comprehension. Edited December 12, 2015 by Sanpitch spelling 2
kryoung1983 Posted December 12, 2015 Author Posted December 12, 2015 I read once that Brigham Young made the comment that the lord has revealed eternity to Many prophets, but that no prophet could comprehend Eternity. I was thinking that surely this has something to do with extra dimensions of existence or something.
JLHPROF Posted December 12, 2015 Posted December 12, 2015 2 hours ago, kryoung1983 said: I believe that most things in the gospel make logical sense. But the concept of no beginning, that is something that is hard to wrap your head around It's hard to comprehend, but it's hardly illogical. If there is time, there is no beginning. Whatever point you can imagine, no matter how far back, you can always just subtract 1 minute (what happened before). No matter how far forward you go you can always add another minute (what happens next). It is the same way with eternal progression/eternal knowledge. The idea that God knows EVERYTHING and cannot ever learn a single item is completely nonsensical (despite what McConkie says). For one It denies the power of creation, the coming into existence of anything new. If God and Christ were sitting in a room together, and Christ composed a poem and read it to the Father, the Father just learned something new, something that hadn't existed before. If God already knew it, then Christ didn't compose a poem - it already existed. If the Father forms a new spirit child, there was a time before he met that child and a time after. He had a new experience which brings new knowledge. No new knowledge, no new experiences. Both time and knowledge are endless - they continue to move forward, without end (or beginning) from eternity to eternity.
VideoGameJunkie Posted December 12, 2015 Posted December 12, 2015 There is no such thing as time in heaven.
JAHS Posted December 12, 2015 Posted December 12, 2015 Logic. If there was a beginning then there had to exist something or an event that caused the beginning to happen. If there was such a thing, what caused that thing to exist and when was its beginning? There simply can't be a beginning or an end. There can only be beginnings or ends to certain things; but not time itself. 1
JLHPROF Posted December 12, 2015 Posted December 12, 2015 (edited) 12 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: There is no such thing as time in heaven. I've never believed this. There is always a before and an after. However, I am sure time is perceived differently there. The scriptures are clear that it is viewed differently and that past, present and future are knowable. But there was a time before God created this earth, and there will be a time after this earth becomes Celestial. Even an "eternity" has a beginning and end, allowing us to progress from eternity to eternity. Time still exists. Edited December 12, 2015 by JLHPROF
Storm Rider Posted December 12, 2015 Posted December 12, 2015 We are very linear when it comes to the measurement of time; we see in one dimension in a straight line. when the discussion is about eternal beings there is no time; there is not past, present, or future. Time exists all at once without beginning or end. As others have said, in a very real sense this is beyond our comprehension. It is a mystery that we may grasp when we are beyond this mortal world, but for know we must live by faith.
ERayR Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 3 hours ago, kryoung1983 said: I believe that most things in the gospel make logical sense. But the concept of no beginning, that is something that is hard to wrap your head around. Joseph Smith said in the sermon in the grove that, "If Abraham reasoned thus-If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly, Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it." I remember that Brigham Young once remarked that he didn't know how many gods there were, but there was never a time when there were not gods doing what our father is doing. So how is this possible? Is there any scientific or logical answers that could make this possible? Perhaps related to other dimensions? Is our concept of time false. I was thinking that perhaps the effects of the atonement are not linear. If so what would be the relationship between say the atonement and the nature of time? I am way out of my depth here but maybe there are people more intelligent than I that might have some theories. If there were a beginning what is on the other side of the beginning line? 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 The first hand accounts of people who have near death experiences and visit the spirit world say they were in a place with no time. I mean they were only legally dead for like a couple minutes on our earth, but experienced things that would take a lot longer to play out in heaven than just a couple of minutes of our earth time.
Calm Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 (edited) That would only mean that the time whereever they were did not align one to one in length of duration with time of what they were aware of when conscious. If they were experiencing time passing, aware of changes etc. it seems likely that some form of time existed for them. If they could say at the beginning of my experience I saw and then at the end of my experience this happened and all these other things happened in between, than time occurred for them. Edited December 13, 2015 by Calm 1
The Nehor Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 I think time does not work the way we think it works. I tried to write up my thoughts on this once but realized I needed to invent at least two more verb tenses to try to explain it and gave up. I could be off base but it seems to work even though it makes my brain hurt. If I am wrong I am content that the real answer is probably even weirder.
rodheadlee Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 3 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: There is no such thing as time in heaven. That is not what our Scriptures teach. This cut and paste is from Abraham 3: 1 And I, Abraham, had the aUrim and Thummim, which the Lord my God had given unto me, in Ur of the Chaldees; 2 And I saw the astars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it; 3 And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is aKolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest. 4 And the Lord said unto me, by the Urim and Thummim, that Kolob was after the manner of the Lord, according to its atimes and seasons in therevolutions thereof; that one revolution was a bday unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand cyears according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest. This is the reckoning of the Lord’s dtime, according to the reckoning of Kolob. 5 And the Lord said unto me: The planet which is the lesser light, lesser than that which is to rule the day, even the night, is above or agreater than that upon which thou standest in point of reckoning, for it moveth in order more slow; this is in order because it standeth above the earth upon which thou standest, therefore the reckoning of its time is not so many as to its number of days, and of months, and of years. 6 And the Lord said unto me: Now, Abraham, these atwo facts exist, behold thine eyes see it; it is given unto thee to know the times of reckoning, and theset time, yea, the set time of the earth upon which thou standest, and the set time of the greater light which is set to rule the day, and the set time of the lesser light which is set to rule the night. 7 Now the set time of the lesser light is a longer time as to its reckoning than the reckoning of the time of the earth upon which thou standest. 8 And where these two facts exist, there shall be another fact above them, that is, there shall be another planet whose reckoning of time shall be longer still; 9 And thus there shall be the reckoning of the time of one aplanet above another, until thou come nigh unto Kolob, which Kolob is after the reckoning of theLord’s time; which Kolob is set nigh unto the throne of God, to govern all those planets which belong to the same border as that upon which thou standest. 10 And it is given unto thee to know the set time of all the stars that are set to give light, until thou come near unto the throne of God.
MorningStar Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 How is it possible for there to be nothing? Mind blown! 2
CV75 Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 6 hours ago, kryoung1983 said: So how is this possible? Since there is no end, there is no beginning (opposition in all things). Beginnings and endings are just opposing reference points or tools with which eternal intelligences act upon those eternal things which are acted upon. 1
RevTestament Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 6 hours ago, kryoung1983 said: I believe that most things in the gospel make logical sense. But the concept of no beginning, that is something that is hard to wrap your head around. Joseph Smith said in the sermon in the grove that, "If Abraham reasoned thus-If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly, Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it." I remember that Brigham Young once remarked that he didn't know how many gods there were, but there was never a time when there were not gods doing what our father is doing. So how is this possible? Is there any scientific or logical answers that could make this possible? I will hazard my 2 cents. The answer is in the Torah. Here I slightly disagree with Brigham Young for the same reasons that I basically agree with him on the Adam-God doctrine - if that makes any sense to you. There is a finite number back to the first. If Joseph saw this in the Bible which is "full of it" he doesn't ever seem to tell us much about that.... I believe it is there but not readily apparent. Quote Perhaps related to other dimensions? Is our concept of time false. I was thinking that perhaps the effects of the atonement are not linear. If so what would be the relationship between say the atonement and the nature of time? I am way out of my depth here but maybe there are people more intelligent than I that might have some theories. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "perhaps the effects of the atonement are not linear." Are you referring to a doctrine that Jesus atoned for the sins of all worlds on this one? On that I will hazzard a no. Cheers
The Nehor Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 13 minutes ago, RevTestament said: I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "perhaps the effects of the atonement are not linear." Are you referring to a doctrine that Jesus atoned for the sins of all worlds on this one? On that I will hazzard a no. What I think was meant was that the atonement works retroactively. The followers of Christ before he came repented and received forgiveness through the atonement, a case where at least as we understand it effect precedes the cause.
stephenpurdy Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 Brigham Young said, "Many have tried to penetrate to the First Cause of all things; but it would be as easy for an ant to number the grains of sand on the earth. It is not for man, with his limited intelligence, to grasp eternity in his comprehension. … It would be as easy for a gnat to trace the history of man back to his origin as for man to fathom the First Cause of all things, lift the veil of eternity, and reveal the mysteries that have been sought after by philosophers from the beginning. What then, should be the calling and duty of the children of men? Instead of inquiring after the origin of Gods—instead of trying to explore the depths of eternities that have been, that are, and that will be, instead of endeavoring to discover the boundaries of boundless space, let them seek to know the object of their present existence, and how to apply, in the most profitable manner for their mutual good and salvation, the intelligence they possess. Let them seek to know and thoroughly understand things within their reach, and to make themselves well acquainted with the object of their being here, by diligently seeking unto a super-power for information and by the careful study of the best books" (DBY, 25). 2
rodheadlee Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 8 hours ago, kryoung1983 said: I So how is this possible? Is there any scientific or logical answers that could make this possible? Perhaps related to other dimensions? Is our concept of time false. I was thinking that perhaps the effects of the atonement are not linear. If so what would be the relationship between say the atonement and the nature of time? I am way out of my depth here but maybe there are people more intelligent than I that might have some theories. There is at least one theory of an eternal universe with no Big Bang. http://phys.org/news/2015-02-big-quantum-equation-universe.html
The Nehor Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 5 minutes ago, rodheadlee said: There is at least one theory of an eternal universe with no Big Bang. http://phys.org/news/2015-02-big-quantum-equation-universe.html While getting rid of the need for the Big Bang singularity (which is hard to understand with current physics) seems to simplify the model this model then relies on creating a lot of hypothetical particles to explain things. I admit I would kind of like to see Big Bang blown away (pun intended) but I am pretty sure this theory is not going to last long.
RevTestament Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: While getting rid of the need for the Big Bang singularity (which is hard to understand with current physics) seems to simplify the model this model then relies on creating a lot of hypothetical particles to explain things. I admit I would kind of like to see Big Bang blown away (pun intended) but I am pretty sure this theory is not going to last long. The plasma universe model is not all that mysterious, and doesn't need "hypothetical" particles.
strappinglad Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 We are told that with God , all things including I suppose time, are one eternal ROUND. Why was that word chosen? Several civilizations have concluded that time is cyclical. Joseph said that this earth has been used for many purposes. From a math perspective , contemplating ' infinity ' is just as perplexing as contemplating eternity. How much is infinity plus 1000? Infinity ! How much is infinity times infinity ? Infinity ! Brigham was right when he suggested we focus our attention on a much more limited time boundary. 1
kryoung1983 Posted December 13, 2015 Author Posted December 13, 2015 Yeah but that wouldn't be as much fun! lol. I like thinking about eternity. I find it interesting that we are told not to look into the mysteries, but Joseph Smith talked more about the mysteries then anyone. He was the one that said we should seek to see what the prophets saw, and to know what they knew.
Robert F. Smith Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 (edited) 11 hours ago, kryoung1983 said: I believe that most things in the gospel make logical sense. But the concept of no beginning, that is something that is hard to wrap your head around. ............................. ............................ So how is this possible? Is there any scientific or logical answers that could make this possible? Perhaps related to other dimensions? Is our concept of time false. I was thinking that perhaps the effects of the atonement are not linear. If so what would be the relationship between say the atonement and the nature of time? I am way out of my depth here but maybe there are people more intelligent than I that might have some theories. Abraham 3:18, ". . . if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal." The more difficult concept is one of a beginning or an end. How could the universe not exist, and then later cease to exist? It is far easier for me to believe that there is only infinity, that there is always matter, universes (the multiverse), and life eternal, without beginning or end. Why else would we find the Hebrew term .-&3 gnolaum (ˁÔlām ) in Abraham 3:18 and in the Bible (Ps 24:7,9, Isa 40:28, Eccles 1:4,10, 2:16, 3:11,14, 12:3,5,7)? Edited December 13, 2015 by Robert F. Smith
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