JLHPROF Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 2 hours ago, consiglieri said: I also am so authorized. It's a great feeling! Yes, but if you had the same priesthood keys as Alma, you might be right a little more often.
Duncan Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 (edited) On 12/12/2015 at 2:56 PM, kryoung1983 said: I believe that most things in the gospel make logical sense. But the concept of no beginning, that is something that is hard to wrap your head around. Joseph Smith said in the sermon in the grove that, "If Abraham reasoned thus-If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly, Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it." I remember that Brigham Young once remarked that he didn't know how many gods there were, but there was never a time when there were not gods doing what our father is doing. So how is this possible? Is there any scientific or logical answers that could make this possible? Perhaps related to other dimensions? Is our concept of time false. I was thinking that perhaps the effects of the atonement are not linear. If so what would be the relationship between say the atonement and the nature of time? I am way out of my depth here but maybe there are people more intelligent than I that might have some theories. I think Kramer said it best https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENPyRc238OU Edited December 19, 2015 by Duncan
The Nehor Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 4 hours ago, consiglieri said: I also am so authorized. It's a great feeling! Show me a sign and I will believe. 1
JLHPROF Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 2 hours ago, The Nehor said: Show me a sign and I will believe. Hmmm, are you a WAAM? I don't believe it.
consiglieri Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 13 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Yes, but if you had the same priesthood keys as Alma, you might be right a little more often. I am right more often than you know. But that's okay. I am patient.
consiglieri Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 10 hours ago, The Nehor said: Show me a sign and I will believe. Check your inbox.
Guest Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 To the OP...we measure beginnings and endings is space-time. God lives outside space and time as we know it, and we know from physics that time had a beginning. It is in that light that there is no beginning. Also eternity is "one great round", with no beginning and no end; at least this is what scripture teaches us.
Stargazer Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 A few years ago I actually tried to make myself imagine eternity. I succeeded to this extent: that I began to panic as all its implications started occurring to me. I very quickly terminated the exercise. I am not kidding. Or not much anyway. Looking behind the curtain in search of the clockwork behind it all is a dangerous act. The brilliant mathematician Georg Cantor spent a great deal of time and effort trying to comprehend infinity (which is another way to try to comprehend eternity), and put himself into depression and a mental sanatorium more than once. 1
Tony Frank Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 On 12/12/2015 at 0:56 PM, kryoung1983 said: I believe that most things in the gospel make logical sense. But the concept of no beginning, that is something that is hard to wrap your head around. Joseph Smith said in the sermon in the grove that, "If Abraham reasoned thus-If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly, Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it." I remember that Brigham Young once remarked that he didn't know how many gods there were, but there was never a time when there were not gods doing what our father is doing. So how is this possible? Is there any scientific or logical answers that could make this possible? Perhaps related to other dimensions? Is our concept of time false. I was thinking that perhaps the effects of the atonement are not linear. If so what would be the relationship between say the atonement and the nature of time? I am way out of my depth here but maybe there are people more intelligent than I that might have some theories. Those of us who receive celestial glory/eternal progression will understand all things, including the doctrine to which Joseph Smith was referring. Those who receive terrestrial or telestial glory and thus have no progression will not understand it, which is part of their torment.
Avatar4321 Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 On 12/14/2015 at 11:19 AM, strappinglad said: While they are being made they do. They aren't circles then
Gray Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 On 12/18/2015 at 3:24 PM, ERayR said: What was before the big bang? There was no before, because there was no time. You need time to exist in order to have things like "before" and "after". 1
Avatar4321 Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 On 12/19/2015 at 9:42 AM, consiglieri said: I am right more often than you know. But that's okay. I am patient. Are you really right if you say everything , no matter how often it contradicts other beliefs you also claim is correct?
Zakuska Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 8 hours ago, Avatar4321 said: They aren't circles then The only shape that goes on for infinity is a sphere. Pi = the magic number
consiglieri Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 34 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: Are you really right if you say everything , no matter how often it contradicts other beliefs you also claim is correct? I'm hedging my bets.
JLHPROF Posted December 22, 2015 Posted December 22, 2015 8 hours ago, Gray said: There was no before, because there was no time. You need time to exist in order to have things like "before" and "after". A ridiculous concept for a variety of reasons. 1
Stargazer Posted December 22, 2015 Posted December 22, 2015 4 hours ago, JLHPROF said: 12 hours ago, Gray said: On 12/18/2015 at 1:24 PM, ERayR said: What was before the big bang? There was no before, because there was no time. You need time to exist in order to have things like "before" and "after". A ridiculous concept for a variety of reasons. No, JLHPROF, Gray is probably correct. If our modern physicists are correct (and I believe they are), the question "What was before the Big Bang" is a meaningless question. It's like asking "How many liters do you weigh?" Before the Big Bang there was no universe. There was nothing. Not even time. I can't comprehend this, neither can you, and neither can Gray. I'm sure it's true, though. The Big Bang is actually a strong argument for the existence of God. How could the universe result from nothing? Answer: it couldn't. Because it didn't exist. It would require a force outside of nothing to bring everything into being. What's outside of nothing? Who knows? But I think the most parsimonious answer is God. It's no worse than the alternative, which is nothing, and if nothing is all that is outside of nothing, then the universe is impossible. And before anyone tries to tell me that that last sentence is a contradiction in terms, don't bother because I know it is. Language doesn't have an accurate way to express what I just tried to say, so make allowances, OK? And please don't anyone try to bring up String Theory, because String Theory is even worse than nothing, and there's no evidence for it anyway. It's cool from a mathematical point of view, but that's all. Another interesting piece of evidence for God is the mass of the universe. According to observational evidence, something like 95% of the mass of the universe is missing. It's only missing because we can't see it, but its gravitational evidence is observable. The contradiction involved has something to do with mass and time. As you know, time is slower next to a large mass. This is basic relativity. So time at ground level on earth is running slightly slower than time is running on the moon (time also runs slower for faster moving objects, with the best evidence for this being that they have to periodically adjust the clocks on the GPS satellites to compensate for this relativistic effect). Now consider the mass of the primordial universe at the very moment of the Big Bang, before even 1 femtosecond had passed. Here's the mass of the entire universe compressed into a point which essentially has no dimensions at all because it is tinier than even Albert Einstein can imagine. Since time runs slower next to massive objects, and slowest when next to the most massive objects, time at the moment of the Big Bang is effectively stopped. There is no time. And without time, nothing can happen, because there's no time for anything to happen in. So there cannot be a "before." NOW let us consider the full implications of this. If there is no time, how can the Big Bang even happen? Answer: it can't. The only way the Big Bang can happen is if an outside force acts to make it happen. And what outside force could this be? Your guess is probably as good as mine, but maybe not. The most likely answer is God, the Creator. And this is a very crucial point: for God to be the force which overcomes the absence of time for the Big Bang to happen in, God must necessarily be outside the universe. Because if God was in the Big Bang then God would not be able to overcome the lack of time for anything to happen in. He is in another universe, perhaps, but not even necessarily that. Being outside our universe, we have no way of knowing or even guessing "where" God is. And we are woefully mal-equipped for ever finding out while occupying this universe. So there we are. 1
JLHPROF Posted December 22, 2015 Posted December 22, 2015 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Stargazer said: Before the Big Bang there was no universe. There was nothing. Not even time. I can't comprehend this, neither can you, and neither can Gray. I'm sure it's true, though. Nah... I find none of this in keeping with the gospel, nor with many of its principles established in our theology. To say God exists outside of time is to ignore the truth that God hasn't always been God. There was a time God was a mortal man like us, which means even if God started the Big Bang for our universe, there was still a time before the Big Bang when God was a human like us. There has always been a before and there will always be an after. Edited December 22, 2015 by JLHPROF 1
Stargazer Posted December 22, 2015 Posted December 22, 2015 (edited) Fighting with the quote system.... ... and I think the quote system is winning. Edited December 22, 2015 by Stargazer
Stargazer Posted December 22, 2015 Posted December 22, 2015 50 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Nah... I find none of this in keeping with the gospel, nor with many of its principles established in our theology. To say God exists outside of time is to ignore the truth that God hasn't always been God. There was a time God was a mortal man like us, which means even if God started the Big Bang for our universe, there was still a time before the Big Bang when God was a human like us. There has always been a before and there will always be an after. So you think that God might have been a mortal man in THIS universe? That He created? Amusing concept. Ouroboros all over again. So you find none of this in keeping with the gospel? Please tell me in which ways it isn't in keeping with it. But first I'll address your problem with God's mortality. God must exist outside our universe, and outside of our time. And nothing in this contradicts the principle of God's mortality, but His mortality can't have been here in this universe, because He created here. He existed in time during a previous creation, but it was a creation just like the one we presently inhabit. That's just like, not the same one. If you insist that the time when God existed in mortality was a time different from or before OUR Big Bang, I shan't disagree, but in order for the following verses to be true, God MUST exist outside our time: Quote 9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. Isaiah 46:9-10 God cannot have declared the end from the beginning without being able to see the end from the beginning. And in order to do so, He must be outside this universe. And He must be outside time, outside our time, at least. What the analog of time might be, in the place where God dwells, well, that's something I can't comment on. But if He can see the end from the beginning, He already knew your mortal end, before you even came here. I have the feeling you're going to completely reject this, and insist upon something that your mortal mind can more easily comprehend, but which is far too simple to be real. If so, then so be it. You might want to try to convince me that what I have presented violates what we know of the Gospel, and it would be interesting to see if you can prove that what I have written violates any principles established in our theology. So far you haven't accomplished this. Saying that "[t]here has always been a before and there will always been an after" is an assertion that may not have any meaning if time as you comprehend it only exists in this universe we inhabit, but not elsewhere. Do you even know what time is? Can you see it? Can you describe it? Can you measure it? If not, don't bother to pack a lunch, because the discussion will not take long at all before you realize that there's nothing to discuss and no time to discuss it in. This universe was created by God, but He's not IN it, at least not in the same sense we are in it. That's the shortest statement of what I mean that I can make.
PeterPear Posted December 22, 2015 Posted December 22, 2015 There is no beginning because there is no end.
Ahab Posted December 22, 2015 Posted December 22, 2015 God declaring the end from the beginning is simply God declaring how things will turn out in the end before it begins, and the beginning and end being referred to are the beginning and end of this Earth's creation and the purpose for which it was intended. Like how the beginning mentioned in Genesis 1:1 is the beginning of this Earth's creation and the end is what is being referred to in the book of Revelation. No justification for thinking God is outside of time or space for you there, bud. Think about it some more.
rodheadlee Posted December 22, 2015 Posted December 22, 2015 If there was no Universe before the big bang then where did the big bang happen?
Gray Posted December 22, 2015 Posted December 22, 2015 16 hours ago, JLHPROF said: A ridiculous concept for a variety of reasons. Well, how there could be a "before" without any time? It's like saying something can be big or small in a situation where there is no such thing as three-dimensional space. 1
Gray Posted December 22, 2015 Posted December 22, 2015 1 hour ago, rodheadlee said: If there was no Universe before the big bang then where did the big bang happen? There was no "where" just as there was no time. It started from a singularity, expanding outwards. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initial_singularity
Gray Posted December 22, 2015 Posted December 22, 2015 (edited) 12 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Nah... I find none of this in keeping with the gospel, nor with many of its principles established in our theology. To say God exists outside of time is to ignore the truth that God hasn't always been God. There was a time God was a mortal man like us, which means even if God started the Big Bang for our universe, there was still a time before the Big Bang when God was a human like us. There has always been a before and there will always be an after. While you're right that a "first cause" kind of God is not in keeping with LDS theology, our theology cannot eclipse our observations about the universe. So our theology can't eclipse the big bang theory. Theology represents our best guesses about God. Science represents our direct observations of God. I don't personally hold to the first cause argument, but it's just one possibility of many. Edited December 22, 2015 by Gray
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