How is it possible that there is no beginning

[consiglieri]

9 hours ago, Ahab said:

God declaring the end from the beginning is simply God declaring how things will turn out in the end before it begins, and the beginning and end being referred to are the beginning and end of this Earth's creation and the purpose for which it was intended. Like how the beginning mentioned in Genesis 1:1 is the beginning of this Earth's creation and the end is what is being referred to in the book of Revelation.

No justification for thinking God is outside of time or space for you there, bud. Think about it some more.

 

I think trying to harmonize modern scientific principles with ancient scripture is a dicey proposition.

[Stargazer]

12 hours ago, Ahab said:

God declaring the end from the beginning is simply God declaring how things will turn out in the end before it begins, and the beginning and end being referred to are the beginning and end of this Earth's creation and the purpose for which it was intended. Like how the beginning mentioned in Genesis 1:1 is the beginning of this Earth's creation and the end is what is being referred to in the book of Revelation.

No justification for thinking God is outside of time or space for you there, bud. Think about it some more.

 

I used to think like you on this.  I've thought about it a LOT.  That's why I no longer think that way.

You think about THIS: for God to have created the Universe as we see it and exist in it, He must have been outside it.  How could He have been inside the Universe when he created it?  He couldn't have, because it wouldn't have existed yet.  You are insisting upon a logical contradiction.  It doesn't work, Ahab.  By a similar token, we cannot comprehend what is outside this Universe, to see "where" God dwells, because we are inside this one.  Thus we foolishly imagine that what we can see is all there is.  

Approaching this from another angle, God knows how things will turn out because He sees it from the beginning all the way to the end, because it is all present to Him, and to Him it has all happened already.  And in order to see it all from beginning to end, He must be outside it, and He cannot not exist in Time with us. 

[Stargazer]

3 hours ago, consiglieri said:

I think trying to harmonize modern scientific principles with ancient scripture is a dicey proposition.

I used to think so, too.  But the more I learn about quantum mechanics (and I am still a babe in the woods with it, unfortunately), the more it seems to be consistent with LDS theological principles.  Well, that might be overstating it a tad.  I'll say that it feels right, at least to me.

[Stargazer]

5 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

If there was no Universe before the big bang then where did the big bang happen?

Believe it or not, that's a meaningless question.  For a start, where is the Universe now?  And "right here" is a tautology, i.e. not an answer.  We cannot answer the question.  We don't even know if the question has an answer.

But I am comforted that regardless of whether or not I can comprehend where the Universe is, God does know.

[Ahab]

Creating the universe is a matter of organizing it. Not as if it had a beginning but changing/ordering/organizing it from one condition to another condition.  And there is no good reason to suppose he had to be somewhere else when he did it before and as he still does it today and will go on creating/organizing/ordering it in the future.

You do realize he is still creating and always will be, don't you? Now just try to understand that he can create any place while he is in the one place where every other place is, aka the universe.

 

 

[JLHPROF]

6 hours ago, Gray said:

 So our theology can't eclipse the big bang theory.

Mine does.

[JLHPROF]

5 hours ago, consiglieri said:

I think trying to harmonize modern scientific principles with ancient scripture is a dicey proposition.

I actually agree with you on this one.

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I used to think like you on this.  I've thought about it a LOT.  That's why I no longer think that way.

You think about THIS: for God to have created the Universe as we see it and exist in it, He must have been outside it.  How could He have been inside the Universe when he created it?  He couldn't have, because it wouldn't have existed yet.  You are insisting upon a logical contradiction.  It doesn't work, Ahab.  By a similar token, we cannot comprehend what is outside this Universe, to see "where" God dwells, because we are inside this one.  Thus we foolishly imagine that what we can see is all there is.

Approaching this from another angle, God knows how things will turn out because He sees it from the beginning all the way to the end, because it is all present to Him, and to Him it has all happened already.  And in order to see it all from beginning to end, He must be outside it, and He cannot not exist in Time with us.

God didn't create the "universe".  At least, not as you are using the term.

There are multiple Gods and multiple universes so to say our God created everything everywhere is incorrect.  God created specific, finite areas and we call those "creations".  Within his creations are worlds without number.  There was a time before each creation was formed.  There is a time after each creation is perfected or destroyed.

Other Gods have other creations running in other areas of existence.  For there to be no time or place or matter or anything outside of Gods creation is just plain false.

[consiglieri]

10 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I actually agree with you on this one.

Christmas must be around the corner!

[Ahab]

Our God is one of the persons who is God, the only God we have anything to do with, the only God that is the most supreme kind of being in all of existence that is exclusively deserving of the designation of God.

I wish more people would think more carefully about what the word God signifies and all it applies to.

Any person anywhere who can rightfully be referred to as God is the same kind of being as is our God and there is no other true God in existence. 

 

 

[Calm]

17 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Fighting with the quote system....

... and I think the quote system is winning.

I remove the formatting of anything I paste, it seems to help.

[Stargazer]

5 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

God didn't create the "universe".  At least, not as you are using the term.

There are multiple Gods and multiple universes so to say our God created everything everywhere is incorrect.  God created specific, finite areas and we call those "creations".  Within his creations are worlds without number.  There was a time before each creation was formed.  There is a time after each creation is perfected or destroyed.

Other Gods have other creations running in other areas of existence.  For there to be no time or place or matter or anything outside of Gods creation is just plain false.

Well, then, color me "puzzled".  

I can't adequately respond to you if our understanding of the term "universe" is not similar enough.  What do mean by "universe"?

I'll tell you what I mean by "universe".  It is the expanse of space and time extending in all directions throughout all three dimensions for a distance of at least 13.7 billion light-years, and probably farther, since we cannot tell by observation where it actually ends.  I am convinced that this universe that we live in and can observe was created by God about 13.7 or more billion years ago.  We can see no other universes because our universe exists in a "bubble" of space-time that does not impinge on any other universe.  What I mean by "universe" is not only the real estate within it, but also all the time bottled up in it, from beginning to end.

Now, I did not say that our God created everything everywhere (or more to the point, all universes everywhere), so you're strawmanning me.  I am saying that our God created our Universe, but as to other universes I have no knowledge because they are outside ours.  We can't detect them, we can only speculate about them.  But the universe that we can see belongs to our Father in Heaven.  All the trillions of galaxies, the quintillions of stars, the dark matter and energy, all the dust clouds, and everyone and everything in them.  For all we know, He's created other universes, too.

You wrote: "For there to be no time or place or matter or anything outside of Gods creation is just plain false."  

Again, I didn't say that.  I said that what we call space and time exists inside this bubble of universe, and I said that God created it all.  But I also said that He exists outside of both space and time as we know it, and this is perhaps where I lose you.  God must exist outside of our space and time because He knows all things inside our space and time, from beginning until the end.  God isn't sitting on some planet orbiting Kolob watching as the universe unfolds around Him, which is what you seem to be visualizing.  God "sits" or "stands" (or is perhaps reclining relaxed on His Barcalounger) outside our universe while seeing/having seen everything in the universe from the Big Bang until the Big Chill at the end as if it were all of a single piece, as if it had all happened already.  He looks at every point in time and sees what His children are doing at every instant, and not only that, but He creates it all at the same time.  It is all one to Him.  

And it doesn't matter to us what else there might be outside our Universe besides our Heavenly Father.

I suppose I'm multiplying words and you still don't see it.  It's not your fault -- I'm sure it's just my inadequacy trying to describe what I mean.

Have you ever read "Flatland"?  That bit of social satire written by Edwin Abbot about a three dimensional being visiting the home of a two dimensional being? Well, we are the two dimensional beings, and God is the three dimensional being, and God can see everything in our universe because he stands above it and outside it.

Edited December 23, 2015 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

I remove the formatting of anything I paste, it seems to help.

Well, yes, there is that, but one time I clicked on "Quote" and after I used the quote in a post it wouldn't go away.  I would click on "Quote" on a different post and the first one would still be there.  I tried logging off, restarting Chrome, and a few other ploys but it still wouldn't go away.  Until I discovered that if I held "Ctrl" and clicked on the quote I got a context menu that allowed me to delete the entire quote.  Before that I had tried highlighting it and hitting the delete key, but all that did was take away the text IN the quote box.  After I got rid of the quote, then I was able to quote other posts.  It was gnarly there for a bit.

[Calm]

I've had that problem.  Good to know the fix.

[Gray]

17 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Mine does.

If that's the case, then your theology isn't based in reality. 

[consiglieri]

11 minutes ago, Gray said:

If that's the case, then your theology isn't based in reality. 

Is anyone's?

[Gray]

22 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

Is anyone's?

Mine is, but mine isn't dependent on the supernatural, or anything resembling the supernatural. 

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

If that's the case, then your theology isn't based in reality.

 

49 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

Is anyone's?

 

17 minutes ago, Gray said:

Mine is, but mine isn't dependent on the supernatural, or anything resembling the supernatural.

 

There you go again, assuming mans limited understanding of science is correct as we have it today.

I think God's going to have a good chuckle when he shows all the scientists how he actually accomplished things that their theories said couldn't be done.

Probably as good a chuckle as scientists today have when they read about the earth being flat or medieval medical techniques.

[Gray]

3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

 

 

 

There you go again, assuming mans limited understanding of science is correct as we have it today.

I think God's going to have a good chuckle when he shows all the scientists how he actually accomplished things that their theories said couldn't be done.

Probably as good a chuckle as scientists today have when they read about the earth being flat or medieval medical techniques.

Obviously our scientific discoveries are incomplete, sometimes wrong, and continually evolving (just like our theology). But there is no competition for science, if we're talking about the understanding what the universe is and how it works at all levels. Theology and science are not competing in the same field. Theology does not contribute to our understanding of the origins of the universe. 

Edited December 23, 2015 by Gray

[JLHPROF]

8 minutes ago, Gray said:

Obviously our scientific discoveries are incomplete, sometimes wrong, and continually evolving (just like our theology). But there is no competition for science, if we're talking about the understanding what the universe is and how it works at all levels. Theology and science are not competing in the same field. Theology does not contribute to our understanding of the origins of the universe.

I couldn't disagree more.

Sometimes prophets understand more of science than scientists (not always, but sometimes).  Abraham understood more of the planetary systems than the learned men of his day.  Joseph Smith basically taught thermodynamics before it was ever codified by science.  I'm guessing Nephi didn't think the earth was flat.

God has perfect knowledge of all science (relating to mortal worlds at least), and if he chooses to reveal a scientific truth to a prophet that would be more reliable than all of man's limited understanding.

[consiglieri]

6 hours ago, Gray said:

Mine is, but mine isn't dependent on the supernatural, or anything resembling the supernatural. 

LOL!

Perhaps instead of asking whether anyone's theology is based in reality, I should have asked, "Isn't everyone's?"

 

[Stargazer]

On 12/22/2015 at 0:54 PM, Ahab said:

Creating the universe is a matter of organizing it. Not as if it had a beginning but changing/ordering/organizing it from one condition to another condition.  And there is no good reason to suppose he had to be somewhere else when he did it before and as he still does it today and will go on creating/organizing/ordering it in the future.

You do realize he is still creating and always will be, don't you? Now just try to understand that he can create any place while he is in the one place where every other place is, aka the universe.

 

 

Now, where do you get the idea that I think that God had to be somewhere else when he did it before?  And your second sentence almost makes sense, but the closer I try to read it the more disordered it comes across.  I just dropped in to see what condition my condition was in.  

Of course he's still creating! What makes you think I think otherwise?  Your last sentence demonstrates most clearly that you don't understand anything I am trying to get across to you.  It's probably my fault.

Nothing you've said here contradicts anything I've written.  Except for your second sentence, which is a mystery wrapped in an enigma.

Edited December 24, 2015 by Stargazer

[strappinglad]

To quote a famous Roman, " What is truth ?" The same can be said of , " What is Reality ?" There is at least one poster here that can provide a thick philosophical essay on the difficult if not exasperating search for the answers. 

Why science thinks that it has the ' true ' reality and religion doesn't  is to me the height of arrogance, particularly since the recent space probes sent to the ends of our solar system have often shown just how mistaken the widely held theories were. To stand on this earth at this particular instant in time and declare that the knowledge of the last 13.7 billion years of the universe's existence is even broadly accurate, is hubris. Take planet formation. Scientists are pretty sure they know how a planet is formed, well, at least it has to be in one of two ( maybe three ) ways. Have they observed planet formation? Well, that would likely take a few lifetimes to watch perhaps. They will tell you how the moon was formed. By collision. Two Mercedes Benzs collided and the result was a BMW and a Buick, both very well formed and in near perfect harmony. Reality? Now we are told that 95% of the universe cannot be seen and likely never will be , but is implied by gravitational effects that are observed. I am told I am foolish to believe in an ' unseen God ' whose existence is implied by subjective observations by fallible humans. What did we know about the universe 400 years ago? What will we know 400 years from now? Does reality get adjusted ?

[rodheadlee]

On 12/22/2015 at 8:37 AM, Gray said:

There was no "where" just as there was no time. It started from a singularity, expanding outwards. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initial_singularity

I guess you mean the Outer Darkness because there is no such place as nowhere. The singularity, if there was one, existed somewhere.

[thesometimesaint]

Star and planet formation observed.

SEE http://www.space.com/31146-alien-planet-formation-photographed.html