Handbook Update, Gay Marriage, Apostasy, Resignations... (Merged Thread)

[Teancum]

There have always been people embarrassed about partaking in the fruit of the tree of life. Can such people be considered faithful? I'm not so sure about that.

And does anyone not consider us anything but fringe as it is?

Shouldn't we worry more about our relationship with Christ than what others think of us anyway?

Some argue that the LDS church hinders a relationship with Christ. But if you read my OP I said that I was certain many would view the blogger's ideas the way you just did. I was not interersted in sermomizing that some here excel at. Rather I wanted to see if others thought the position of the blogger had merit.

[Russell C McGregor]

As we know, the change finally came in June 1978, as the Bob Jones University tax case was winding its way through the courts. Coincidence? I doubt it.

So that's his argument, is it?

A few points:

• Given that he's merely offering an opinion based upon the likelihood of a "coincidence," this is pretty poor stuff.
• The NAACP lawsuit was in 1974, not 1977. A fairly elementary fact, but important because the relevance of the lawsuit to subsequent events is somewhat, ah, "diminished."
• A church is not a university, and a university is not a church. A university's legal protections based upon religious freedom are consequently considerably less, so the Bob Jones case could not have been relevant to the Church.
• BYU is a university, that is true. However, Priesthood ordination is exclusively ecclesiastical, and not even remotely academic. Bob Jones was in trouble because of university policies based upon its religious ethos, but BYU had no comparable policies. Any precedent flowing from Bob Jones would not be relevant to BYU.

But apart from those minor considerations, he seems to have gotten everything right.

[Danzo]

Kansas

And even Utah

[Teancum]

I agree, but this just goes to show that the Lord is aware of our circumstances and needs. When these things ended it was the right time. We once were a provincial church primarily settled in one area. As we became a worldwide church different circumstances were in play. I read on the new policy on LGBT that there were issues coming up in different parts of the world as well as here so in this case it was necessary to draw a firm line in the sand.

So you think after when the church capitulated on the plural marriage issue after fighting. The fight for 50 years that it was just the right time and all in the plan anyway. Even when most of the 19th century LDS leaders said we would never give it up and that the church would be in apostasy if it did, including Wilford Woodruff not many years before he issues the manifesto.

Ok then.

[Teancum]

It seems to me that the most common difference between those who support the policy and those who don't is their general support or lack thereof for SSM within the Church itself. I am sure there are exceptions to this, but this is a general rule. I think this is what really fulled the uproar.

I attend multiple singles wards right now due to callings and personal obligations. The general sentiment seems to be that young members of the Church are in favor of SSM or on board with the Church condoning it. Yet, in my experience, the exact opposite is true and the VAST, VAST majority of our YSA aged members support the brethren and the policy. I think Facebook and other social media where it is discussed creates a bit of vacuum because those of us who support the policy have been bullied into silence because we will be misunderstood or labeled. Whereas Church feels like a safe place to express feelings and testimony. The last few weeks that is what I have seen on Sundays.

Facebook can be a vacuum depending on your friends and who you follow. But no more a vacuum than talking to your local stake members who are young and active. Edited November 15, 2015 by Teancum

[Mystery Meat]

Facebook can be a vacuum depending on your friends and who you follow. But no more a vacuum than talking to your local stake members who are young and active.

 

I don't disagree.

[Hamba Tuhan]

But I think this issue amongst numerous others will continue to keep that growth relatively slow (as it is now and has been for a number of years) as well as suppress activity rates to what seems to be fairly low world wide.

 

It's probably just a coincidence, but our sacrament attendance yesterday was by far the largest we've seen in many months ... a whopping 29.6% increase over the previous week's. Saturday night I set up 18 chairs on the stage for my Gospel Principles class, and we ended up having to add another 10 chairs to accommodate everyone who came. I had five non-members in class, three of them there for their very first time, and a sixth (young man) introduced himself in priesthood meeting. It felt good!

Edited November 15, 2015 by Hamba Tuhan

[Alan]

I think one difference between this issue and plural marriage is that we are not alone.

We share common ground with the Evangelicals, Roman Catholic Church, Eastern (and especially Russian) Orthodox Church, and of course Islam.

[filovirus]

Yes.  The number there would have been in the billions so if God is willing to kick billions out to maintain order in heaven, that means he is serious when it comes to eternal laws.

A "third part" does not necessarily mean 1/3. Taken in context it probably doesn't.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Hopefully, it sound fun and all apocalyptic like.

[Nofear]

I think this prediction more likely - that we will be sanctuaries of civilization in a crumbling world. Not yet perhaps, but eventually.

https://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2015/11/same-sex-marriage-and-the-mormon-benedict-option

[Sevenbak]

Yeah, it could happen.  In fact, it wouldn't surprise me.

 

...and they were in the attitude of mocking and pointing their fingers towards those who had come at and were partaking of the fruit.

And after they had tasted of the fruit they were ashamed, because of those that were scoffing at them; and they fell away into forbidden paths and were lost...

[strappinglad]

A "third part" does not necessarily mean 1/3. Taken in context it probably doesn't.

The expression " a third part " either means approximately 1/3 or it implies a first part and second part with different sizes and outcomes. I don't see any evidence of two other distinct parts being discussed, so I am left with the 1/3 interpretation.

[Avatar4321]

The expression " a third part " either means approximately 1/3 or it implies a first part and second part with different sizes and outcomes. I don't see any evidence of two other distinct parts being discussed, so I am left with the 1/3 interpretation.

1/3 part fell away. 1/3 part in the Church of the firstborn l, and 1/3 part not in the church but not falling away

[ksfisher]

There should not be any church document that is not open to its members.   Sure the leaking to the media (done apparently by John Dehlin, but who knows how he got it) is wrong.  But the thing is that it would also not have become the sensation it has been if it was always available to everyone, as it would  not have been distributed widely with the less than accurate interpretations that it was, had there been openess about it in the first place.

Your scenario doesn't quite work. John Dehlin was busy leaking it before my stake president even saw it.

[Teancum]

It's probably just a coincidence, but our sacrament attendance yesterday was by far the largest we've seen in many months ... a whopping 29.6% increase over the previous week's. Saturday night I set up 18 chairs on the stage for my Gospel Principles class, and we ended up having to add another 10 chairs to accommodate everyone who came. I had five non-members in class, three of them there for their very first time, and a sixth (young man) introduced himself in priesthood meeting. It felt good!

And your point is what?

[jaberwocky]

This information wasn't 'leaked' by anyone within the Church.  It was searched for by John Dehlin as part of his ongoing effort to demagogue the Church and its relationship with homosexuals in Utah.  He's an evil man and his purposes are also evil.

[CV75]

There should not be any church document that is not open to its members.

I'm sure you have your limits and exceptions to this general statement. Membership and member financial records, for example. I see Handbook 1 as a resource specifically intended for those who have been authorized to administer in spiritual things (D& 107:8-10), and not intended for every member not so authorized.

[CV75]

The general sentiment seems to be that young members of the Church are in favor of SSM or on board with the Church condoning it. Yet, in my experience, the exact opposite is true and the VAST, VAST majority of our YSA aged members support the brethren and the policy.

My observation is that young members of the Church are tolerant of the legalization of secular SSM but certainly support the LDS doctrine and leaders (and in this case, the policy).

[filovirus]

The expression " a third part " either means approximately 1/3 or it implies a first part and second part with different sizes and outcomes. I don't see any evidence of two other distinct parts being discussed, so I am left with the 1/3 interpretation.

"The scriptural term “third part” is often misapplied as the fraction one-third. As one author put it, “When John speaks of the war in heaven, his description of Lucifer’s activities is slightly different from the typical interpretation in Latter-day Saint circles. He states that the devil drew away a ‘third part’ of the hosts of heaven with him (see Revelation 12:4; D&C 29:36–38). The distinction between ‘one-third’ and a ‘third part’ may seem subtle, yet it is real. The fraction one-third implies 33 1/3 percent, whereas the phrase ‘third part’ implies a numerically undetermined segment of the population who symbolize the fact that Satan’s power over the premortal spirits was limited. Thus, the numerology in the passage implies that we have no knowledge of the fraction or percentage of the Father’s children who followed the adversary. All we know is that Satan had a limited influence over those in the presence of God”" (Alonzo L. Gaskill, The Lost Language of Symbolism [salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 2003], 118–119)

[carbon dioxide]

Its an overreaction.  The fact is most of the worlds religions do not endorse homosexual behavior.  Most people in the world do not accept it.  There will be people that label the LDS Church as a hate group and that is fine. We will just call those people Bill of Rights haters.  The First Amendment protects not only religious belief but practice. 

[carbon dioxide]

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/commentary-understanding-the-handbook

 

This is official information on what the CHI is and how it is to be implemented. Note that it is intended only for church leaders to use with inspiration. Had it not been leaked no one would have known because Bishops would have handled these issues with compassion and revelation for each circumstance.

In the age of the internet, nobody in the Church leadership should think they can publish something in the handbook and expect only bishops ot know about it.  The moment they made that revision, it was going to be leaked by someone.  The only question was when.

[bluebell]

They could all be accurate.

 

2500 fits the 1000+ description, and hundreds could mean 25 hundred. Estimates are...well...estimates.

 

Given the purpose of journalism though, saying "a few hundred" to mean a couple thousand would be really dumb because it would not give the reader any accurate idea of what the number actually was.  After all, from that reasoning "a few hundred" could mean any number more than 300 and less than infinity.  

 

I'm guessing that authors of each article are just really bad at being able to gauge the number of people in attendance by looking at a large crowd.

[Damien the Leper]

Through the tumult of the LDS Church’s recent policy updates regarding same-sex couples and families, I have seen many friends on social media express their determination to either resign their membership or look to the Community of Christ church as an alternative place to worship. For those who are considering the latter, I offer my brief thoughts (expanded from a response expressed on a friend’s Facebook wall) [1]:

That the Community of Christ has transcended the history of its origin is something to be admired.

We LDS are somewhat like the modern Orthodox Jew: participating in the world while clinging to every word of Moses. The Community of Christ is more like the Reformed Jew: respecting the spirit of their heritage, but focusing less on the Law and more on the message of shalom.

Temples remain an important aspect of both traditions, but where LDS temples are largely focused on ordinances relating to the hereafter (for both the living and the deceased), the Community of Christ temple is largely focused on instruction for the living; where Latter-day Saints practice proxy work in their temples with hope for the universal redemption of mankind, the Community of Christ offers in their temple a daily prayer for peace with hope that justice may be found on the earth today. The angel Moroni stoically stands atop LDS temples sounding his horn for the world to hear the everlasting gospel; and while too many of my LDS friends have mocked the “crooked spire” of the Community of Christ temple, their nautilus-inspired pinnacle gracefully ascends towards the heavens and is perhaps even more inspiring from the inside while gazing upward (both literally and metaphorically).

As someone who is in the field of history, I do not believe that history helps us find “truth” as much as it helps us to understand change. If it is the truth you seek, you are better off looking to poetry, literature, the arts, and acts of devotion—expressions that transcend the limitations of our humanity. I agree with the Jewish scholar who taught that if it is God you seek, you will find Him in the faces of other people. I think that the Community of Christ embraces this, and as someone who still considers myself on the orthodox side of Mormonism, I offer them my love, admiration, and friendship. Shabbat shalom—may peace be with you on this holy day.

[1] The Community of Christ church has created a website specifically for Latter-day Saints who wish to learn more about their history and beliefs. They do not actively proselytize to Latter-day Saints. For more information, see www.latter-dayseekers.org.

This is a great resource for those looking for a more suitable and spiritually fulfilling home to worship. The LDS church isn't the only nor the best option for all God's children.

From Worlds Without End blog.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Valentinus

[carbon dioxide]

This information wasn't 'leaked' by anyone within the Church.  It was searched for by John Dehlin as part of his ongoing effort to demagogue the Church and its relationship with homosexuals in Utah.  He's an evil man and his purposes are also evil.

Don't blame Mr Dehlin for this.  If it was not him it would have been someone else.  It might have been a week or two later but gone are the days that the Church can do something and few people know about it.  The Church should assume that anything that is published whether in print or in digital form and distributed out, it is basically in the public domain and they should be prepared for all types of reactions the moment they do it.