President Uchtdorf On "choosing To Believe"

[SteveO]

I am certain of nothing really. Are,you? I am willing to examine any and all of what I believe now as well as what I have believed and held to be true and to accept that what I may beleive or think now as well as in the past may or may not be true. Are you?

No. And I'm not trying to bring you back into the fold by any means. you and jkwilliams have a long history with the church though. If devoting your whole life, and doing everything you're supposed to do--well why couldn't you convince yourself to stay? Isn't that the basis for my spiritual experiences? I've convinced myself to stay? I'm so invested that I'm willing to overlook the logical gaps in the church? I'm not trying to be condescending, I'm legitimately asking. That seems to be what I'm seeing you saying on this thread.

[SteveO]

Sorry on my phone and can't edit. I mean "YES" I am willing to question everything

[Ahab]

Personally I never believed JS had no faults and most I have interacted with that no longer believe did not believe that either. Not sure where you got that idea.

That was just an example of something nobody should believe which means it's okay to not believe it. Things people ought to believe should still be believed, though, such as Joseph Smith being a prophet of God and the Book of Mormon being scripture and the Church being the true Church of Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ being our Lord and Savior.

Fine not to believe the things that people should not believe but everybody should believe what they ought to believe.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Ahab

[jkwilliams]

I remember a former college roommate I had--born and raised in the church, honorable RM, etc.  He declared his disbelief almost a year prior to my meeting him.  He was adamantly atheist, and made (sometimes obnoxiously) a point of it.

 

I remember when I came home from an activity one night, and being pretty intoxicated he came up to me before I went into my room.  He put an arm around me and said with tears and a cracking voice, "I wish I could still be where you are--I hope you don't think of me as a bad person.  I want to go back [to church] one day".

 

Knowing a few drunks myself, and based off numerous experiences on the mission, I've always known drunks to be some of the most honest people you can meet.  Naturally they never seem to remember their "truthful" moments when they sober up, and it was no different with my roommate.

 

Point is, I'm quite certain that this roommate had...*ahem* "doubts about his doubts creeping about in the background of his new found disbelief.  Question for Teancum and jkwilliams: I'm not comparing you to my former roommate, but are you guys absolutely certain of your current choice?  Or is there a tiny spark of faith you keep way in the back?  I've been reading your comments and you guys have me wondering where you are exactly?  I guess if you WANT to believe but find you CAN'T, shouldn't that wanting override any intellectual barriers?  I've heard it always that people who stay have convinced themselves into staying because their wanting is so strong.  Sorry if you've answered this question before.  Thanks

It's pretty simple: to me, the evidence against Mormonism's truth claims is overwhelming. But, as I have said, I have never said it's been proven to be false or that I'm certain of anything. I just know that when I was a believer, I had a pretty large "shelf" of things I had to rationalize or ignore, and that shelf is empty now. I don't think anyone could have wanted to believe more than I did, but at some point I just had to accept that, as far as I could see, there was no basis for belief.

But my beliefs have nothing to do with what you or anyone else believes. I would never say you believe because you want to believe so badly or that you're so invested you overlook the gaps. No, you believe because you see things differently than I do. That's all it is, IMO.

I hear all the time that people like Teancum and me have left because of some moral or spiritual failing. And I've heard people say that believing Mormons have somehow deluded themselves into believing despite the evidence. But to me, both of these accusations are unfair and untrue. People believe or don't believe based on what they understand and how they interpret things.

[Tacenda]

It's pretty simple: to me, the evidence against Mormonism's truth claims is overwhelming. But, as I have said, I have never said it's been proven to be false or that I'm certain of anything. I just know that when I was a believer, I had a pretty large "shelf" of things I had to rationalize or ignore, and that shelf is empty now. I don't think anyone could have wanted to believe more than I did, but at some point I just had to accept that, as far as I could see, there was no basis for belief.But my beliefs have nothing to do with what you or anyone else believes. I would never say you believe because you want to believe so badly or that you're so invested you overlook the gaps. No, you believe because you see things differently than I do. That's all it is, IMO.I hear all the time that people like Teancum and me have left because of some moral or spiritual failing. And I've heard people say that believing Mormons have somehow deluded themselves into believing despite the evidence. But to me, both of these accusations are unfair and untrue. People believe or don't believe based on what they understand and how they interpret things.

Oh I so relate to the drunk friend of SteveO. I want that comfort of belief again. Loneliest feeling to be surrounded by believers and not believe.

[jkwilliams]

Oh I so relate to the drunk friend of SteveO. I want that comfort of belief again. Loneliest feeling to be surrounded by believers and not believe.

I felt that way for a long time, but I finally had to learn to be comfortable in my own skin.

[stemelbow]

Oh I so relate to the drunk friend of SteveO. I want that comfort of belief again. Loneliest feeling to be surrounded by believers and not believe.

I feel it too. But then I find myself amongst my non believer friends and feel lonely in the same sense. That's my problem, though. I believe. I believe a hell of a lot. But I also don't believe a hell of a lot. In the end I feel like I relate to the feelings and beliefs expressed by many varied people. I tire of dichotomies of belief vs unbelief, and labels of critic vs believer. I see too much reason to span them all.

[jkwilliams]

I feel it too. But then I find myself amongst my non believer friends and feel lonely in the same sense. That's my problem, though. I believe. I believe a hell of a lot. But I also don't believe a hell of a lot. In the end I feel like I relate to the feelings and beliefs expressed by many varied people. I tire of dichotomies of belief vs unbelief, and labels of critic vs believer. I see too much reason to span them all.

It's kind of a tough spot to be in, when both sides want to draw hard lines in the sand and expect you to pick a side. But you don't owe anyone anything. Just be true to yourself and do the best you can to follow truth. It all works out, eventually.

[stemelbow]

It's kind of a tough spot to be in, when both sides want to draw hard lines in the sand and expect you to pick a side. But you don't owe anyone anything. Just be true to yourself and do the best you can to follow truth. It all works out, eventually.

Or it never works out, per se. Well, don't know what we mean by works out, in this sense, maybe. I tend to think sometime down the road when this is all over, this world, things will work out. I don't expect things to work out while I'm walking these roads. It just feels like it won't.

[iWriteStuff]

I don't know about you, but I think it's valuable to reevaluate one's beliefs, doubting one's doubts, as it were. It seems more than a little egocentric and capricious to choose what one would rather believe than what one ought to believe.

 

And yet I think you have to admit that to some extent we all choose our beliefs. One of my favorite quotes is "We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are" (Anais Nin). Part of the reason for this is our tendency to fall victim to confirmation bias - we choose what we believe, then seek evidence for it in every day life. If we are looking for something, we will find it.

 

I think the easiest example of this is the crowd of Mormons who believe the end is nigh any ole day now, based on books with dreams/visions/NDEs by xyz author. If they accept this as their reality, then every news event or rumor will serve as confirmation of their paradigm. 

 

On the other hand, if we look for God's hand in all things, we will see it - not only because we're looking for it, but also because it's there.

[jkwilliams]

And yet I think you have to admit that to some extent we all choose our beliefs. One of my favorite quotes is "We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are" (Anais Nin). Part of the reason for this is our tendency to fall victim to confirmation bias - we choose what we believe, then seek evidence for it in every day life. If we are looking for something, we will find it.

 

I think the easiest example of this is the crowd of Mormons who believe the end is nigh any ole day now, based on books with dreams/visions/NDEs by xyz author. If they accept this as their reality, then every news event or rumor will serve as confirmation of their paradigm. 

 

On the other hand, if we look for God's hand in all things, we will see it - not only because we're looking for it, but also because it's there.

Sure, there's a choice involved, but it is much harder to choose to believe something when the evidence is so overwhelmingly against it. I could choose to believe that peanut butter is good for sterilizing wounds, for example, but my choice wouldn't make it so.

[jkwilliams]

Or it never works out, per se. Well, don't know what we mean by works out, in this sense, maybe. I tend to think sometime down the road when this is all over, this world, things will work out. I don't expect things to work out while I'm walking these roads. It just feels like it won't.

Things always work out, one way or the other. That doesn't mean we'll be happy or satisfied with the way they work out. Sounds to me like you just need to be patient and accept some uncertainty in life.

[Tacenda]

It's kind of a tough spot to be in, when both sides want to draw hard lines in the sand and expect you to pick a side. But you don't owe anyone anything. Just be true to yourself and do the best you can to follow truth. It all works out, eventually.

Oh, Stemelbow and JK, right where I'm at. With the non believers I feel just as lonely. Those hard drawn lines are the pits.

[jkwilliams]

Oh, Stemelbow and JK, right where I'm at. With the non believers I feel just as lonely. Those hard drawn lines are the pits.

I know the feeling. For me, the important thing was to follow my brain and conscience and pray for guidance, ignoring the pull from either side. I'm at peace with where I am.

[Sanpitch]

"To thine own self be true."

[jkwilliams]

"To thine own self be true."

I've always thought it was funny when people quoted that line, as it comes from Polonius, the most two-faced, duplicitous character in Hamlet. Still, it's a good quote.

[stemelbow]

Things always work out, one way or the other. That doesn't mean we'll be happy or satisfied with the way they work out. Sounds to me like you just need to be patient and accept some uncertainty in life.

That's where I guess we're talking past each other a little. I'm suggesting that we must accept uncertainty in life and that uncertainty won't get worked out in our lives, but perhaps, hopefully, afterward.

[stemelbow]

I know the feeling. For me, the important thing was to follow my brain and conscience and pray for guidance, ignoring the pull from either side. I'm at peace with where I am.

Sure. I feel at peace with where I am too. For me that doesn't mean I feel like where I am is my final resting spot, though.

[jkwilliams]

That's where I guess we're talking past each other a little. I'm suggesting that we must accept uncertainty in life and that uncertainty won't get worked out in our lives, but perhaps, hopefully, afterward.

Yeah, that's basically what I'm saying. It just sounded to me like you were dissatisfied with the uncertainty. Maybe "things work out" when we accept the uncertainty.

[jkwilliams]

Sure. I feel at peace with where I am too. For me that doesn't mean I feel like where I am is my final resting spot, though.

Definitely not. The other day my wife and I were talking with one of our children, who is engaged to be married (in the temple, even) next Spring, and my wife said, "We are not the same people in our fifties that we were in our twenties or thirties or forties, and we will be different in our sixties and seventies. The main thing is to enjoy where you are together and look forward to making positive changes as you go along." I think that works for couples, but it also is important for individuals.

[HappyJackWagon]

I've always thought it was funny when people quoted that line, as it comes from Polonius, the most two-faced, duplicitous character in Hamlet. Still, it's a good quote.

I was about to write the same thing. Great minds...

 

iWriteStuff: 

And yet I think you have to admit that to some extent we all choose our beliefs. One of my favorite quotes is "We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are" (Anais Nin). Part of the reason for this is our tendency to fall victim to confirmation bias - we choose what we believe, then seek evidence for it in every day life. If we are looking for something, we will find it.

 

I don't agree with this at all. While it is natural to seek evidence for current beliefs as a validation, I think it is very different to consciensly CHOOSE to believe a certain way, especially if that goes against reason. There are all the standard, cliche examples; Can I choose to belive in Santa or that the world is flat.  and then seek evidence to support my belief. Can I choose to believe The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy is really the key to understanding God? Can I choose to believe I can flap my arms and fly? I don't think it's possible. I can't imagine believing any of those things regardless of how much I want to believe. The evidence I experience (this would include spiritual as well as intellectual and physical evidence) causes a natural internal reaction of belief or skepticism.

 

 

"If a man, holding a belief which he was taught in childhood or persuaded of afterwards, keeps down and pushes away any doubts which arise about it in his mind, purposely avoids the reading of books and the company of men that call into question or discuss it, and regards as impious those questions which cannot easily be asked without disturbing it -- the life of that man is one long sin against mankind..."

 

The Ethics of Belief by William K. Clifford

Originally published in Contemporary Review, 1877.

 

[Tacenda]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LBS28aUzmY&feature=youtu.be

 

Interesting youtube, LDS aren't the only ones that need to worry about belief, it's epidemic in the US.  Someone said that we're one generation away from nearly no belief of a religion, or something like that. They show many church leaders from different faiths giving talks advising members to stop their doubts, doubt their doubts or stay away from the internet.  I remember not too long ago one our leaders, maybe the prophet, stating that what we need to worry most about is secularization.  I guess you could say they prophesied it happening.  With the internet age how do we prevent it?  I guess by listening to Pres. Uchtdorf, by choosing to believe.  But sometimes when we have the history told right in front of us and it's different than what we're taught, just as the Seventh Day Adventists do in this youtube about their prophet Ellen White.  It sounds strangely familiar of  those disaffected in the LDS church.  Hopefully there's something to replace non belief in an institution.  I still believe in a church of members meeting together, helping one another, and even coming to a belief in Him or God, just as Jesus set up in the beginning.  Only in the D&C or PoGP scriptures does it seem to go beyond that.  Or I'm mistaken.   

Edited October 7, 2015 by Tacenda

[pogi]

 

With the internet age how do we prevent?

 

I think jk said it best:

 

Maybe "things work out" when we accept the uncertainty.

 

In a faith that correlates testimony with "I know" statements, uncertainty may be a sign of weakness for some.  If uncertainty is perceived as weakness, that perception of weakness can cause fear, fear can cause doubt, doubt erases hope, and where there is no hope, people lose their faith.  It is a deadly trap once fear starts.  I believe that faith can endure where uncertainty is embraced as a sign of intellectual and spiritual integrity. 

 

I believe that is the first step.  One has to maintain hope and desire while eradicating fear by fully embracing uncertainty.  One must be honest with themselves that whichever way they turn, there is uncertainty and unanswered questions.  The second step, and foundational step for enduring faith is to develop a personal and intimate relationship with God.  That can only be done on the bedrock of hope and desire.  It doesn't work so well from the foundation of fear and doubt as the scriptures say. 

Edited October 7, 2015 by pogi

[jkwilliams]

I think jk said it best:

Thanks! And you can call me John. Most people do.

 

 

In a faith that correlates testimony with "I know" statements, uncertainty may be a sign of weakness for some.  If uncertainty is perceived as weakness, that perception of weakness can cause fear, fear can cause doubt, doubt erases hope, and where there is no hope, people lose their faith.  It is a deadly trap once fear starts.  I believe that faith can endure where uncertainty is embraced as a sign of intellectual and spiritual integrity. 

 

I believe that is the first step.  One has to maintain hope and desire while eradicating fear by fully embracing uncertainty.  One must be honest with themselves that whichever way they turn, there is uncertainty and unanswered questions.  The second step, and foundational step for enduring faith is to develop a personal and intimate relationship with God.  That can only be done on the bedrock of hope and desire.  It doesn't work so well from the foundation of fear and doubt as the scriptures say.

I wonder why doubt is always spoken of as being hand in hand with fear. Maybe doubt is the wrong word, and rather what we think is doubt may be more a desire for understanding, a thirst for knowledge, and a refusal to stand pat on prior certainties.

[pogi]

I wonder why doubt is always spoken of as being hand in hand with fear. Maybe doubt is the wrong word, and rather what we think is doubt may be more a desire for understanding, a thirst for knowledge, and a refusal to stand pat on prior certainties.

 

Spiritual doubt certainly leads to fear, and fear can lead to doubt.  Here is the problem with "doubt" vs "open-minded questioning" as I see it - at the core of doubt is a biased suspicion which leans away from that which is being doubted.  It breeds distrust and an unwillingness or uneasiness to yield to that which is being doubted.  This is precisely why it is so damaging to faith, where faith requires an open and willing submission of self.  Doubters are either unwilling, or too afraid to submit themselves to that kind of vulnerability.  

 

I think my previous analogy of dance fits perfectly.  Faith, like dance, requires an open and un-rigid vulnerability, it requires a willing abandonment of your own preconceptions and desired path in submission to God's footing and movement.  It requires an easy responsiveness to every motion and direction.  Such grace is not possible with a doubtful dancer.

 

It can be terrifying to make oneself so vulnerable, even where hope and desire abound.  In the face of doubt, the fear and rigidity will simply be too great for any meaningful intimacy with God.   

 

A "desire for understanding, and a thirst for knowledge" are not the same as doubt.  There is a willingness and openness there not found in doubters.  

Edited October 7, 2015 by pogi