The Nehor Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 I'm still wondering if my ancestors were wrong to abandon their worship of Baal. Maybe if they hadn't been persuaded by the evidence of that Elijah dude, I'd have a lot more blessings in my life.How hard are you trying to believe in Baal?Me when I am on the phone: 1
The Nehor Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 Actually I love The Lord of the Rings and have had some very moving and deep feelings as I have read the books many times over. Is that the Holy Ghost? I felt as moved by these books in a way similar to feelings I have had about the Book of Mormon.Might be, could be just the Light of Christ or basic emotions. Experiment upon the word and find out.
Teancum Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 This is a misleading comparison. Purely in terms of emprical, physical evidence, the truthfulness of the restored gospel can be nether definitively proven nor definitively disproven. Ergo, despite your touching, heartfelt testimony that you have reached "a point where [you] simply cannot choose to believe," there is nevertheless space for faith, earnest investigation and petitioning the Almighty for a spiritual witness.Scott my point is there are all sorts of things people believe and have emotional feelings about that are very muc like what you call the Holy Ghost. So replace Hobbits with Muhammed or Confusious or Buddha or an alter call for a born again Christianmir so many who think they saw Mary. Do you give them the same credence you do your testimony of the Book of Mormon? Can you simply choose tomorrow to accept Muhammed as Gods prophet? If not then You really don't beleive one can just choose to beleive.
ttribe Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) Rather. Ought. Same difference to me.And I think the time for evaluating is before one decides whether or not to believe, not being sure which way to go until the decision is made to believe or to not believe. This is a misleading comparison. Purely in terms of emprical, physical evidence, the truthfulness of the restored gospel can be nether definitively proven nor definitively disproven. Ergo, despite your touching, heartfelt testimony that you have reached "a point where [you] simply cannot choose to believe," there is nevertheless space for faith, earnest investigation and petitioning the Almighty for a spiritual witness. Not necessarily never, just that it's better to think carefully before deciding whether or not to believe something than to flip flop on your beliefs. Might be, could be just the Light of Christ or basic emotions. Experiment upon the word and find out. Why do you guys keep talking to jkwilliams and Teancum like they are uninformed investigators? You realize they are both ordained High Priests, returned missionaries, endowed and married in the Temple, lifelong members, right? You aren't telling them anything that they haven't likely considered in earnest, and heard time and time again. Why is it so hard to admit that reliance on spiritual experiences, usually described in the form of emotions and thoughts, can be irreconcilable with other people's same experiences, is easily manipulated by circumstance and conditions, and is subject to re-interpretation when considered in the light of new information? Edited October 5, 2015 by ttribe
Ahab Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 So, deciding through study and prayer that your beliefs were wrong is flip-flopping. That must mean converts to the LDS church are flip-floppers.Not necessarily. And there's a difference between beliefs and impressions. Like how I once had an impression before I joined the Church that the Bible had the only scriptures available in our modern age, before I discovered there were other scriptures available that are not in the Bible. Scriptures I just wasn't aware of before I read them after someone pointed them out to me.I didn't go through a phase where I did not believe they were scripture and then flip flopped to believe they were. It took me some time to realize they were and are scripture but until then I didn't make up my mind either way. And ever since that day when I decided to believe they were and are scripture I haven't changed my mind about that, based on the evidence I received that helped me to believe and realize they were and are scripture. Flip flopping never has made good sense to me. I'd rather just take enough time to think about what I ought to believe, and why I ought to believe it, so I don't believe anything wrong to begin with.
ttribe Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 Not necessarily. And there's a difference between beliefs and impressions. Like how I once had an impression before I joined the Church that the Bible had the only scriptures available in our modern age, before I discovered there were other scriptures available that are not in the Bible. Scriptures I just wasn't aware of before I read them after someone pointed them out to me.I didn't go through a phase where I did not believe they were scripture and then flip flopped to believe they were. It took me some time to realize they were and are scripture but until then I didn't make up my mind either way. And ever since that day when I decided to believe they were and are scripture I haven't changed my mind about that, based on the evidence I received that helped me to believe and realize they were and are scripture.Flip flopping never has made good sense to me. I'd rather just take enough time to think about what I ought to believe, and why I ought to believe it, so I don't believe anything wrong to begin with. You are a sample size of 1. Really, you need to stop assuming you are representative of the entire population of truth-seekers.
jkwilliams Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 Why are you guys keep talking to jkwilliams and Teancum like they are uninformed investigators? You realize they are both ordained High Priests, returned missionaries, endowed and married in the Temple, lifelong members, right? You aren't telling them anything that they haven't likely considered in earnest, and heard time and time again. Why is it so hard to admit that reliance on spiritual experiences, usually described in the form of emotions and thoughts, can be irreconcilable with other people's same experiences, is easily manipulated by circumstance and conditions, and is subject to re-interpretation when considered in the light of new information?I don't begrudge them believing T and I have no experience with faith and belief and the spirit. They don't know our hearts or experience, just as we don't know theirs.
ttribe Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 I don't begrudge them believing T and I have no experience with faith and belief and the spirit. They don't know our hearts or experience, just as we don't know theirs. I'm not suggesting either you or Teancum begrudge anyone their continued belief in that which you could no longer believe. I've never seen otherwise from either one of you. I'm just shaking my head at some of the "advice" thrown at the two of you, as if you've never heard nor considered these things before when I have reason to believe otherwise.
jkwilliams Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 You are a sample size of 1. Really, you need to stop assuming you are representative of the entire population of truth-seekers.The only way the experience of people like us makes sense to him is to assume that our spiritual decisions were made on a whim. Not true, but it's easier than empathizing and trying to understand.
Teancum Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 Why are you guys keep talking to jkwilliams and Teancum like they are uninformed investigators? You realize they are both ordained High Priests, returned missionaries, endowed and married in the Temple, lifelong members, right? You aren't telling them anything that they haven't likely considered in earnest, and heard time and time again. Why is it so hard to admit that reliance on spiritual experiences, usually described in the form of emotions and thoughts, can be irreconcilable with other people's same experiences, is easily manipulated by circumstance and conditions, and is subject to re-interpretation when considered in the light of new information?Thank you!
pogi Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 Why is it so hard to admit that reliance on spiritual experiences, usually described in the form of emotions and thoughts, can be irreconcilable with other people's same experiences, is easily manipulated by circumstance and conditions, and is subject to re-interpretation when considered in the light of new information? What do you mean by the underlined part? I agree with your last statement in red. My personal beliefs are ever evolving - line upon line... and expect them to continue to evolve until I can see clearly and not through a glass dimly.
jkwilliams Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 I'm not suggesting either you or Teancum begrudge anyone their continued belief in that which you could no longer believe. I've never seen otherwise from either one of you. I'm just shaking my head at some of the "advice" thrown at the two of you, as if you've never heard nor considered these things before when I have reason to believe otherwise.I know. I am just saying it doesn't bother me. It is kind of funny that people assume I'm new to all this.
ttribe Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 What do you mean by the underlined part? I agree with your last statement in red. My personal beliefs are ever evolving - line upon line... and expect them to continue to evolve until I can see clearly and not through a glass dimly. Two people, both active and obedient members of the Church who have taken all the same covenants and are doing their respective best to live up to them. These same two people pray about the same issue and claim opposing answers. Both claim to have felt the Spirit confirm their respective conclusion. They can't both be right. How do you reconcile the two? Now, before you say - Appeal to the scriptures, read the words of the living prophets, etc., consider that they've already done that and each person's conclusion is equally reasonable based on study, "ponderizing" and debate. Prayer was the final step and they come up in opposite directions.
pogi Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 I'm just shaking my head at some of the "advice" thrown at the two of you, as if you've never heard nor considered these things before when I have reason to believe otherwise. ...and is subject to re-interpretation when considered in the light of new information? Because the statement in red is true, what makes you think that teancum's or jk's current belief system will never be subject to re-interpretation in the light of new information. Sometimes, it is not the message but the timing that counts. They are obviously spiritually curious, who am I to write them off?
Damien the Leper Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 Correct Calvinistic theology, even though it is both anti-logical and anti-biblical. Instead, Mormons believe in free will.Correction. This Westminster Reformed and not Evangelical/Scottish Reformed Calvinism. Barth and Torrance would argue vehemently against what Erik proposes.
jkwilliams Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 Because the statement in red is true, what makes you think that teancum's or jk's current belief system will never be subject to re-interpretation in the light of new information. Sometimes, it is not the message but the timing that counts. They are obviously spiritually curious, who am I to write them off?As I said to Ahab, my beliefs are subject to constant revision and rethinking. I would go back to the church in a heartbeat if I had some reason to believe. 1
Teancum Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 Because the statement in red is true, what makes you think that teancum's or jk's current belief system will never be subject to re-interpretation in the light of new information. Sometimes, it is not the message but the timing that counts. They are obviously spiritually curious, who am I to write them off?Well thank you. I won't write you off either. :-) 1
ttribe Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) Because the statement in red is true, what makes you think that teancum's or jk's current belief system will never be subject to re-interpretation in the light of new information. Sometimes, it is not the message but the timing that counts. They are obviously spiritually curious, who am I to write them off? Indeed, I believe it's certainly possible that such a reinterpretation could occur. Don Bradley comes to mind, for example. As to who is writing off whom...well, I'll leave that to the informed reader around here. (Note: I don't get the impression you, personally, are writing anyone off). Edited October 5, 2015 by ttribe
jkwilliams Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 Indeed, I believe it's certainly possible that such a reinterpretation could occur. Don Bradley comes to mind, for example.As to who is writing off whom...well, I'll leave that to the informed reader around here. (Note: I don't get the impression you are, personally, are writing anyone off).A poster here once told me I had gone past the point of no return. Made me chuckle.
ttribe Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 A poster here once told me I had gone past the point of no return. Made me chuckle. I'm guessing I could narrow that list down to about three....
jkwilliams Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 I'm guessing I could narrow that list down to about three....Just think of Mt Doom ...
pogi Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) Two people, both active and obedient members of the Church who have taken all the same covenants and are doing their respective best to live up to them. These same two people pray about the same issue and claim opposing answers. Both claim to have felt the Spirit confirm their respective conclusion. They can't both be right. How do you reconcile the two? Now, before you say - Appeal to the scriptures, read the words of the living prophets, etc., consider that they've already done that and each person's conclusion is equally reasonable based on study, "ponderizing" and debate. Prayer was the final step and they come up in opposite directions. Two people pray for inspiration and direction to the same location. One feels prompted to go West, the other feels prompted to go East. They both argue for a time and agree to disagree. They each set sail in opposite directions yet end up in the same location. The other possible explenation is that sometimes people get it wrong, and that is OK. The Lord does not care if we are perfect in discernment as much as he cares about the condition of our heart. He will get us there eventually if our hearts are good (I am still working on mine), but that journey will be vastly different for each individual. Edited October 5, 2015 by pogi 1
ttribe Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) Two people pray for inspiration and direction to the same location. One feels prompted to go West, the other feels prompted to go East. They both argue for a time and agree to disagree. They each set sail in opposite directions yet end up in the same location. Or else, sometimes people get it wrong, and that is OK. The Lord does not care if we are perfect in discernment as much as he cares about the condition of our heart. He will get us there eventually if our hearts are good, but that journey will be vastly different for each individual. I don't disagree with the lens you've applied here. Others who are perhaps more...orthodox/orthoprax...might disagree with you. Edited October 6, 2015 by ttribe
pogi Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) Well thank you. I won't write you off either. :-) Good, keep working on me. One of us will tire out eventually and give in. Edited October 5, 2015 by pogi 1
ttribe Posted October 6, 2015 Posted October 6, 2015 (edited) Good, keep working on me. One of us will tire out eventually and give in. While, I realize this was said in jest, I don't get the impression either jkwilliams or Teancum is attempting to evangelize anyone out of the Church. Edited October 6, 2015 by ttribe
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