President Uchtdorf On "choosing To Believe"

[jkwilliams]

This is a more honest perspective - neither side has a monopoly on "integrity" or taking the harder path.  We each make choices and all choices have consequences, full stop.  There is no need to dress up our own choices as being morally superior, more righteous, more noble, or possessing more integrity.  Choices were made.

 

Having said that I believe there is value in discussing that choices have meaning or value.  Disciples of Christ should eventually converge on similar choices even though there will be periods of growth where we each regress and others where we progress.

Having known Teancum for many years and having met him personally, I know his experience was similar to mine: we wanted to believe, it would have been easier to continue on the path we were on in the church, but we made our choices based on what we believed was right. My wife told me that she might have considered leaving me if she had thought my motivations for leaving were bad, but she said she knew I was doing what my conscience was telling me to do. Does that mean I have more integrity or intellect or whatever than someone who continues in the LDS church? Not at all. I have nothing but respect for people who have wrestled with the same issues I have and have come out on the other side with their faith in tact or even strengthened. The only people I don't respect are those who pretend there are no legitimate issues with the church that might cause someone to reevaluate their beliefs.

Edited October 5, 2015 by jkwilliams

[Teancum]

Let me get this straight, you have personal integrity, but everyone else that chooses to have hope, believe, and follow a path of faith is....what exactly? Something that does not reflect "personal integrity"? This is called smug self-righteousness. You do get that, right? It is certainly not the position of someone with personal integrity; it is the position of someone who chooses a path other than faith.

Sorry no. I meant my integrity based on where my journey has led me not that your integrity based on where your journey leads you is not as valid. It is.

But when someone says one is always easier than the other like one size fits all...well isn't that smug and self righteous?

So again no I don't mean my path is superior any more than yours. Everyone who is a seeker should follow where their integrity leads them.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Teancum

[jkwilliams]

Sorry no. I meant my integrity based on where my journey has led me not that your integrity based on where your journey leads you is just as valid.

But when someone says one is always easier than the other like one size fits all...well isn't that smug and self righteous?

So again no I don't mean my path is superior any more than yours. Everyone who is a seeker should follow where their integrity leads them.

This.

[janderich]

Having known Teancum for many years and having met him personally, I know his experience was similar to mine: we wanted to believe, it would have been easier to continue on the path we were on in the church, but we made our choices based on what we believed was right. My wife told me that she might have considered leaving me if she had thought my motivations for leaving were bad, but she said she knew I was doing what my conscience was telling me to do. Does that mean I have more integrity or intellect or whatever than someone who continues in the LDS church? Not at all. I have nothing but respect for people who have wrestled with the same issues I have and have come out on the other side with their fact in tact or even strengthened. The only people I don't respect are those who pretend there are no legitimate issues with the church that might cause someone to reevaluate their beliefs.

What then do you believe is the difference between one who has questions but keeps their faith intact and one who has questions and loses their faith?

[jkwilliams]

What then do you believe is the difference between one who has questions but keeps their faith intact and one who has questions and loses their faith?

I think each person is different.

[Teancum]

What then do you believe is the difference between one who has questions but keeps their faith intact and one who has questions and loses their faith?

Every journey is different and I don't think they is one correct answer. A hard core atheist my argue that faith is weak and simple. I don't believe that. I hard line believer often says that the path of skepticism and critical thinking is prideful and lacking humility or that it ignores the spirit of God-which experiences are purely subjective to the individual. I get this from many here often. I don't believe that either.

I don't have an answer one way or the other. I have wondered this a lot. Why have I and others, who were at one point just as strong in faith and testimony as many here, ended up where we are and others not. I don't think either side are bad ion malicious in their intent. I think both sides should be respectful of the other side.

[jkwilliams]

Every journey is different and I don't think they is one correct answer. A hard core atheist my argue that faith is weak and simple. I don't believe that. I hard line believer often says that the path of skepticism and critical thinking is prideful and lacking humility or that it ignores the spirit of God-which experiences are purely subjective to the individual. I get this from many here often. I don't believe that either.

I don't have an answer one way or the other. I have wondered this a lot. Why have I and others, who were at one point just as strong in faith and testimony as many here, ended up where we are and others not. I don't think either side are bad ion malicious in their intent. I think both sides should be respectful of the other side.

Yep. There are good, honest, humble people on both sides of the divide, just as there are unpleasant and dishonest people on both sides. In the end, all we can do is follow our conscience and the truth. Part of the human condition is not having a consensus.

[Gray]

I don't believe that anyone can choose to believe anything they like. That certainly doesn't jibe with my own experiences. I think some beliefs may be chosen, but the limits of what you may choose to believe are constrained by personality, how you process information, and your understanding of the relevant factual information, and your emotional experience with the beliefs. In some cases what you can choose to believe may be quite a narrow list of options. 

[ERayR]

If you think belief is simply a choice then do you give this choice the same credence to scientologists or flat earth believers?

 

I did not say all beliefs are equal.  What I said that believing (whatever you believe) is a choice.

[ERayR]

The bottom line is that following what you believe to be right and true is hard. No one has a monopoly on integrity or self-righteousness.

 

Agreed and in the end it is choice.

[ERayR]

Every journey is different and I don't think they is one correct answer. A hard core atheist my argue that faith is weak and simple. I don't believe that. I hard line believer often says that the path of skepticism and critical thinking is prideful and lacking humility or that it ignores the spirit of God-which experiences are purely subjective to the individual. I get this from many here often. I don't believe that either.

I don't have an answer one way or the other. I have wondered this a lot. Why have I and others, who were at one point just as strong in faith and testimony as many here, ended up where we are and others not. I don't think either side are bad ion malicious in their intent. I think both sides should be respectful of the other side.

 

It is simply choices irregardless of the reasons for those choices.  For some it is pride, for some it is sincere and for soem it is choices made from ignorance.  However vigorously I may disagree with you I respect your right to your choices.

[jkwilliams]

Agreed and in the end it is choice.

But it's never an easy choice. It's hard to choose to believe in something that isn't actually true, no matter how hard you want to believe.

[ERayR]

I don't believe that anyone can choose to believe anything they like. That certainly doesn't jibe with my own experiences. I think some beliefs may be chosen, but the limits of what you may choose to believe are constrained by personality, how you process information, and your understanding of the relevant factual information, and your emotional experience with the beliefs. In some cases what you can choose to believe may be quite a narrow list of options. 

 

Who or what is dictating your choices?  If you have more than one option you have a choice.  That you may have strong incentives to choose one or the other is irrelevant.

[rockpond]

 

An important address from President Dieter F. Uchtdorf at tonight’s priesthood session of general conference on “choosing to have faith.” Here are a few selected excerpts:

 

 

In some circles, a prior talk by President Uchtdorf has been used to rationalize not just having doubts, but publicly proclaiming them, as though they were a badge of honor. Some would attempt to parlay an admission he made in that talk that mistakes have been made in the past into an excuse to undermine whatever current teachings from the Brethren they don't like, inspired or not. I believe that talk needs to be considered in tandem with this one to get a true reflection of President Uchtdorf’s sentiments.

 

A similar theme was in the priesthood session address by Elder Neil Andersen, which I will highlight in a separate thread.

 

 

 

I'm not sure how one would use his past words to wear their doubts like a badge of honor.  But I guess that's a subject for another thread.

 

I also liked Pres. Uchtdorf's comments about man-made additions being like sediment covering the flower of the gospel.  But perhaps I'm remembering wrong.  Each conference I anxiously await the transcripts so I can read/study them.

[ERayR]

But it's never an easy choice. It's hard to choose to believe in something that isn't actually true, no matter how hard you want to believe.

 

Didn't say it was easy.  As for true, well that is POV.  Different information goes into my pov than into yours and according to your pov mine is false but from my pov the opposite is true.  Come now I why should I be compelled by your experiences?

[jkwilliams]

I'm not sure how one would use his past words to wear their doubts like a badge of honor.  But I guess that's a subject for another thread.

There's no reason to be proud of doubts, any more than there is reason to be proud of faith. It does feel good to do the right thing, but the second you start patting yourself on the back, it loses a little of its luster.

 

I also liked Pres. Uchtdorf's comments about man-made additions being like sediment covering the flower of the gospel.  But perhaps I'm remembering wrong.  Each conference I anxiously await the transcripts so I can read/study them.

Yes, I always enjoy reading them more than listening to them, probably because it means I can take my time and study and ponder.

[jkwilliams]

Didn't say it was easy.  As for true, well that is POV.  Different information goes into my pov than into yours and according to your pov mine is false but from my pov the opposite is true.  Come now I why should I be compelled by your experiences?

No one but me should be compelled by my experience. I would think that's obvious.

[ERayR]

There's no reason to be proud of doubts, any more than there is reason to be proud of faith. It does feel good to do the right thing, but the second you start patting yourself on the back, it loses a little of its luster.

 

Yes, I always enjoy reading them more than listening to them, probably because it means I can take my time and study and ponder.

 

Would that be ponderize?

[jkwilliams]

Would that be ponderize?

You know, I kind of feel bad for Brother Durrant. Until yesterday, I only knew him from being a basketball star at BYU before my mission. Now all I can think of is "ponderize."

[ERayR]

No one but me should be compelled by my experience. I would think that's obvious.

 

Not so obvious in light of such statements as this:

 

But it's never an easy choice. It's hard to choose to believe in something that isn't actually true, no matter how hard you want to believe.

 

Especially when that "isn't actually true" is something I believe.

[jkwilliams]

Not so obvious in light of such statements as this:

 

 

Especially when that "isn't actually true" is something I believe.

I wasn't talking about your beliefs at all. Why would you assume that?

[pogi]

I can see both sides.  My brother-in-law, whom I am very close with has left the church, and we have had many open and honest talks about belief.  He argues that belief is never a choice.  We cannot simply choose to believe whatever we want, he argues, there must be enough convincing evidence to believe.  For example, he says, "if you can believe whatever you want, prove it by choosing to believe in Santa Clause".  Good point!

 

I agree with him that belief is not always as simple as choosing to believe.  Choosing to believe contrary to the evidence at hand would be intellectually dishonest, like believing in Santa Clause for example.  The scriptures are clear that belief and faith are not simply empty choices, rather it has "substance" as Elder U pointed out, which is grounded in "evidence of things not seen".  Faith IS the evidence of things not seen. 

 

I don't recall hearing in Elder U's talk that we should "choose to believe."  What I heard him say is that:

 

"we believe in God because of things we know with our heart and mind, not because of things we do not know."

 

"There is no magic to belief. But wanting to believe is the necessary first step!"

 

It requires an "experiment upon the word of God", it requires "humility", "and it requires an open heart and an open mind. It requires seeking, in the full meaning of the word. And, perhaps hardest of all, it requires being patient and waiting upon the Lord."

 

I agree with Five Solas that faith is a spiritual gift from God.  God cannot be discovered or created, only revealed.  However, it is a free gift that he extends to all who plant the seed of His word in their hearts.  Obedience to the laws upon which the blessings are predicated is required

This experiment upon the word of God requires first, a "desire" to believe, and a "hope" in that word.  Those are things that we can all choose without forfeiting our intellectual integrity.  Second, it requires an experiment of planting the word in our hearts and trying the word.  This step may prove to be more difficult to some.  It may require a temporary recess of logic and reason by stepping into the uncomfortable unknown and even seemingly ridiculous.  That is what is required.  The evidence will follow.

 

Revelations usually leave delicate and delible impressions on our hearts.  When we earnestly follow, test, and live these impressions, they become enduring and indelible imprints on our hearts.  The works and subsequent witness becomes the weight needed to make a previously delible impression an indelible imprint on our hearts. 

 

Faith is intimacy with God and with truth.  It is like a woman in the hands of a skilled dancer.  It is the respectfully submissive and malleable follower who responds to every firm yet assuring lean or pull of her trusted leader in faith and obedience to him.  Like dance, it is a language not limited to the confines of human dialect.  It cannot be discovered or experienced through the structured limitations of human logic.  It is freedom beyond the comprehension of the human mind where the hypnotizing flow of rhythm and touch elegantly glides you effortlessly across the dance floor. 

 

Like dance, you cannot experience the grace of God without submission to him.  Though his graces are extended to all, if we trust and follow the steps of man and our own relative truths, we will not be wisped away in the grace and knowledge of God.  The more we become submissive to Him and His word, the more we learn that we can trust Him.  Faith blooms from that trust. 

 

In the end there is a choice, we have to choose to dance with God, some find it too scary to abandon their own footing.

Edited October 5, 2015 by pogi

[bluebell]

I don't believe that anyone can choose to believe anything they like. That certainly doesn't jibe with my own experiences. I think some beliefs may be chosen, but the limits of what you may choose to believe are constrained by personality, how you process information, and your understanding of the relevant factual information, and your emotional experience with the beliefs. In some cases what you can choose to believe may be quite a narrow list of options. 

 

From my perspective it really depends on what someone means by 'believe'.  A lot of people in the church use the words 'believe' and 'have faith' interchangeably, and both as action words.

 

But like you said, it's not really possible to believe something that you are firmly convinced isn't true.  Something has to change first.

[Calm]

It's hard to choose to believe in something that isn't actually true, no matter how hard you want to believe.

If you are saying you already know/firmly beleve it is false and at that point it would be hard to choose, of course; but the choice would have come during the time you were deciding whether or not to identify it as false.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Calm

[jkwilliams]

If you are saying you already know/firmly beleve it is false and at that point it would be hard to choose, of course; but the choice would have come during the time you were deciding whether or not to identify it as false.

Indeed. The question is, how does one arrive at that belief?