President Uchtdorf On "choosing To Believe"

[pogi]

Galations 5:12, for example was the principal scripture used by us as missionaries. 

 

 

Gal 5:12 - "As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! (New International Version)"

 

I see how you really feel about us! 

 

I think you meant Gal 5:22-23 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

 

I do not concede that these feelings cannot be manipulated; a significant portion of my academic and professional training and experience tells me otherwise.

 

The problem in describing the fruits of the spirit is that words are entirely insufficient in comprehending the experience of the fruit.  Words are simply the seeds of the spirit, not the fruits of the spirit.  One cannot taste of the fruits by nibbling at the seeds.  How can you be certain that the spiritual fruits that I have personally tasted can be derived from another variety of seed (manipulated)?  I have yet to experience these fruits from any other seed, and trust me, I have experimented with many different variety of seed.  

Edited October 6, 2015 by pogi

[ttribe]

Gal 5:12 - "As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! (New International Version)"

I see how you really feel about us!

I think you meant Gal 5:22-23 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

The problem in describing the fruits of the spirit is that words are entirely insufficient in comprehending the experience of the fruit. Words are simply the seeds of the spirit, not the fruits of the spirit. One cannot taste of the fruits by nibbling at the seeds. How can you be certain that the spiritual fruits that I have personally tasted can be derived from any variety of seed? I have yet to experience these fruits from any other seed, and trust me, I have experimented with many different variety of seed.

Dang it...screwed up that reference.

[Ahab]

What do I know? I'm fundamentally dishonest. lol

Years ago I met a poster on the original predecessor of this board, and it struck me at the time that we had the same general approach to life, we agreed on issues of church history and doctrine, and we genuinely liked each other. But he was out of the church, and I was a fervent believer. It was from him that I finally understood that it was possible to leave the church and even become a "critic" and still be a good, honest person. I suppose I knew that in the abstract before then, but I had always accepted the usual explanations about "apostates": they were proud, or they wanted to sin, or they intellectualized the gospel, or they couldn't handle imperfections in church leaders. None of this was true of my friend, and I began to see former church members much differently. I am not one of those people who thinks all who leave the church are intelligent or courageous, but I do recognize that a lot of people leave for legitimate and good reasons, even if others disagree with those reasons.

The only thing I attribute to those who leave the Church is that they left the path that they once were on as members. They just stopped believing what they once believed.

Some of those things they should never have believed anyway, like for example if they believed Joseph Smith didn't have any faults. So as I talk to such people to try to get an understanding of why they left, what straw broke the camel's back so to speak, I look for what I would consider an error in their reasoning that I can maybe help to straighten out. Because I know very well that there is no good reason for anyone to leave or abandon the Church. It's just a matter of a person believing what they "ought" to believe.

[jkwilliams]

Because I know very well that there is no good reason for anyone to leave or abandon the Church.

Then there really is no point in discussing this with you. Whatever we think is wrong.

[pogi]

ttribe, I was wondering if you wouldn't mind sharing your thoughts on this question:

 

The problem in describing the fruits of the spirit is that words are entirely insufficient in comprehending the experience of the fruit.  Words are simply the seeds of the spirit, not the fruits of the spirit.  One cannot taste of the fruits by nibbling at the seeds.  How can you be certain that the spiritual fruits that I have personally tasted can be derived from another variety of seed (manipulated)?  I have yet to experience these fruits from any other seed, and trust me, I have experimented with many different variety of seed.  

[ttribe]

ttribe, I was wondering if you wouldn't mind sharing your thoughts on this question:

I don't think I can determine that for someone else. I am referring to documented phenomenon and suggesting we should each be aware of that when we are evaluating our own experiences.

Edited October 6, 2015 by ttribe

[pogi]

I don't think I can determine that for someone else. I am referring to documented phenomenon and suggesting we should each be aware of that when we are evaluating our own experiences.

 

I agree with that.  However, you seemed to suggest earlier that the fruits of the spirit can be manipulated.  I would suggest that just as you cannot determine that for me, no "documented phenomenon" can be definitely linked to a manipulation of the fruit of the spirit.  

[Ahab]

Then there really is no point in discussing this with you. Whatever we think is wrong.

Hyperbole or exaggeration, a bit over the top.

I'm sure that some of what you think is right and true and is what you ought to believe. You're just not believing some other things that you ought to believe and I can maybe help to pinpoint whatever it is that is keeping you from believing those other things that you ought to believe.

Sit back and get comfortable. This doesn't have to be a painful experience for you.

[jkwilliams]

Hyperbole or exaggeration, a bit over the top.

I'm sure that some of what you think is right and true and is what you ought to believe. You're just not believing some other things that you ought to believe and I can maybe help to pinpoint whatever it is that is keeping you from believing those other things that you ought to believe.

Sit back and get comfortable. This doesn't have to be a painful experience for you.

I'm sure you mean well, but my spiritual life is between me and my Father in Heaven. Painful or not, I have no interest in putting anyone between me and Him.

[Ahab]

I'm sure you mean well, but my spiritual life is between me and my Father in Heaven. Painful or not, I have no interest in putting anyone between me and Him.

On the side is what I had and still have in my mind. I don't want to get between you two either, and I don't think anybody should be other than Jesus and the Holy Spirit/Ghost.

This is a discussion board, don't ya know.

[jkwilliams]

On the side is what I had and still have in my mind. I don't want to get between you two either, and I don't think anybody should be other than Jesus and the Holy Spirit/Ghost.

This is a discussion board, don't ya know.

Sure, but you wouldn't want me pinpointing what you ought to believe or not, would you?

[ttribe]

I agree with that.  However, you seemed to suggest earlier that the fruits of the spirit can be manipulated.  I would suggest that just as you cannot determine that for me, no "documented phenomenon" can be definitely linked to a manipulation of the fruit of the spirit.  

 

Well, to clarify, what I suggested is that emotional states can be manipulated.  To the extent there is overlap between what is described as communication from the Spirit, and said emotional states, that's what I am referring to.

[jkwilliams]

Well, to clarify, what I suggested is that emotional states can be manipulated.  To the extent there is overlap between what is described as communication from the Spirit, and said emotional states, that's what I am referring to.

Just think of the testimony meeting at the end of every youth conference.

[pogi]

Well, to clarify, what I suggested is that emotional states can be manipulated.  To the extent there is overlap between what is described as communication from the Spirit, and said emotional states, that's what I am referring to.

 

Thanks for the clarification.

[ttribe]

Just think of the testimony meeting at the end of every youth conference.

 

Or, EFY!  Those were real cry-fests!

[Ahab]

Sure, but you wouldn't want me pinpointing what you ought to believe or not, would you?

Sure I would, while hoping I would consider what you told me, ponderizing it for at least a little while, before deciding whether or not I ought to believe it.

Golden rule applies here too. I would hope that both of us are willing to try to point each other in the right direction.

[jkwilliams]

Sure I would, while hoping I would consider what you told me, ponderizing it for at least a little while, before deciding whether or not I ought to believe it.

Golden rule applies here too. I would hope that both of us are willing to try to point each other in the right direction.

I appreciate the sentiment, but no, thanks.

[Ahab]

I appreciate the sentiment, but no, thanks.

Then you might want to look away the next time you see that I am about to say something.

I'll at least consider what you have to say to me, even though I will be on guard for deception whether you intend it or not.

[jkwilliams]

Then you might want to look away the next time you see that I am about to say something.

I'll at least consider what you have to say to me, even though I will be on guard for deception whether you intend it or not.

I always consider what you have to say.

[Teancum]

The only thing I attribute to those who leave the Church is that they left the path that they once were on as members. They just stopped believing what they once believed.

Some of those things they should never have believed anyway, like for example if they believed Joseph Smith didn't have any faults. So as I talk to such people to try to get an understanding of why they left, what straw broke the camel's back so to speak, I look for what I would consider an error in their reasoning that I can maybe help to straighten out. Because I know very well that there is no good reason for anyone to leave or abandon the Church. It's just a matter of a person believing what they "ought" to believe.

Personally I never believed JS had no faults and most I have interacted with that no longer believe did not believe that either. Not sure where you got that idea.

[Teancum]

Hyperbole or exaggeration, a bit over the top.

I'm sure that some of what you think is right and true and is what you ought to believe. You're just not believing some other things that you ought to believe and I can maybe help to pinpoint whatever it is that is keeping you from believing those other things that you ought to believe.

Sit back and get comfortable. This doesn't have to be a painful experience for you.

You continue to demonstrate the bad example on the believing side that those who once beleive and are now on a different path are fundamentally flawed and in error.

[jkwilliams]

Personally I never believed JS had no faults and most I have interacted with that no longer believe did not believe that either. Not sure where you got that idea.

Don't worry. He'll figure out where you went wrong.

[Teancum]

Don't worry. He'll figure out where you went wrong.

Ugh! Indeed.

[SteveO]

I remember a former college roommate I had--born and raised in the church, honorable RM, etc.  He declared his disbelief almost a year prior to my meeting him.  He was adamantly atheist, and made (sometimes obnoxiously) a point of it.

 

I remember when I came home from an activity one night, and being pretty intoxicated he came up to me before I went into my room.  He put an arm around me and said with tears and a cracking voice, "I wish I could still be where you are--I hope you don't think of me as a bad person.  I want to go back [to church] one day".

 

Knowing a few drunks myself, and based off numerous experiences on the mission, I've always known drunks to be some of the most honest people you can meet.  Naturally they never seem to remember their "truthful" moments when they sober up, and it was no different with my roommate.

 

Point is, I'm quite certain that this roommate had...*ahem* "doubts about his doubts creeping about in the background of his new found disbelief.  Question for Teancum and jkwilliams: I'm not comparing you to my former roommate, but are you guys absolutely certain of your current choice?  Or is there a tiny spark of faith you keep way in the back?  I've been reading your comments and you guys have me wondering where you are exactly?  I guess if you WANT to believe but find you CAN'T, shouldn't that wanting override any intellectual barriers?  I've heard it always that people who stay have convinced themselves into staying because their wanting is so strong.  Sorry if you've answered this question before.  Thanks   

[Teancum]

I remember a former college roommate I had--born and raised in the church, honorable RM, etc.  He declared his disbelief almost a year prior to my meeting him.  He was adamantly atheist, and made (sometimes obnoxiously) a point of it.

 

I remember when I came home from an activity one night, and being pretty intoxicated he came up to me before I went into my room.  He put an arm around me and said with tears and a cracking voice, "I wish I could still be where you are--I hope you don't think of me as a bad person.  I want to go back [to church] one day".

 

Knowing a few drunks myself, and based off numerous experiences on the mission, I've always known drunks to be some of the most honest people you can meet.  Naturally they never seem to remember their "truthful" moments when they sober up, and it was no different with my roommate.

 

Point is, I'm quite certain that this roommate had...*ahem* "doubts about his doubts creeping about in the background of his new found disbelief.  Question for Teancum and jkwilliams: I'm not comparing you to my former roommate, but are you guys absolutely certain of your current choice?  Or is there a tiny spark of faith you keep way in the back?  I've been reading your comments and you guys have me wondering where you are exactly?  I guess if you WANT to believe but find you CAN'T, shouldn't that wanting override any intellectual barriers?  I've heard it always that people who stay have convinced themselves into staying because their wanting is so strong.  Sorry if you've answered this question before.  Thanks

I am certain of nothing really. Are,you? I am willing to examine any and all of what I believe now as well as what I have believed and held to be true and to accept that what I may beleive or think now as well as in the past may or may not be true. Are you?