jkwilliams Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Spiritual doubt certainly leads to fear, and fear can lead to doubt. Here is the problem with "doubt" vs "open-minded questioning" as I see it - at the core of doubt is a biased suspicion which leans away from that which is being doubted. It breeds distrust and an unwillingness or uneasiness to yield to that which is being doubted. This is precisely why it is so damaging to faith, where faith requires an open and willing submission of self. Doubters are either unwilling, or too afraid to submit themselves to that kind of vulnerability. I think my previous analogy of dance fits perfectly. Faith, like dance, requires an open and un-rigid vulnerability, it requires a willing abandonment of your own preconceptions and desired path in submission to God's footing and movement. It requires an easy responsiveness to every motion and direction. Such grace is not possible with a doubtful dancer. It can be terrifying to make oneself so vulnerable, even where hope and desire abound. In the face of doubt, the fear and rigidity will simply be too great for any meaningful intimacy with God. A "desire for understanding, and a thirst for knowledge" are not the same as doubt. There is a willingness and openness there not found in doubters. The part I don't like is where you said "a refusal to stand pat on prior certainties." That, to me, is too rigid. There should never be a right-out refusal of anything. That is where learning ends. A better statement would be "a willingness to explore prior certainties". Subtlety is required in spiritual matters. I guess I don't see the biased suspicion part of it. This goes back to the OP in the suggestion that you have to choose not to believe, as if the only thing that would lead one not to believe is personal choice or maybe moral failing. I don't buy that at all.
Gray Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Or maybe to put it another way, can you choose to believe in something that seems, to you, to be false? Can you control what seems true or false to you? Or can you choose not to believe in something that seems, to you, to be true?
pogi Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 (edited) I guess I don't see the biased suspicion part of it. It very much is a biased suspicion. You said yourself that you can't believe because the evidence is too overwhelming. That conclusion creates a biased suspicion, aka doubt, based on your interpretation of the evidence and perception. Faith requires a willingness to accept that your fallible perception may be skewed or un-whole. It requires you to abandon doubt and embrace uncertainty. There is a difference. One must quiet the mind and open the heart. That can be terrifying. It requires complete vulnerability. Edited October 7, 2015 by pogi 1
jkwilliams Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Or maybe to put it another way, can you choose to believe in something that seems, to you, to be false? Can you control what seems true or false to you? Or can you choose not to believe in something that seems, to you, to be true? That is a perfect way of saying it. Thanks. 1
pogi Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 (edited) Or maybe to put it another way, can you choose to believe in something that seems, to you, to be false? Can you control what seems true or false to you? Or can you choose not to believe in something that seems, to you, to be true? I don't understand. This has nothing to do with believing anything. I am talking about abandoning doubt (which is more of a belief really) for uncertainty. Edited October 7, 2015 by pogi
jkwilliams Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 It very much is a biased suspicion. You said yourself that you can't believe because the evidence is too overwhelming. That conclusion creates a biased suspicion, aka doubt, based on your interpretation of the evidence and perception. Faith requires a willingness to accept that your fallible perception may be skewed or un-whole. It requires you to abandon doubt and embrace uncertainty. There is a difference. The suspicion derived from your analytics and to quiet the mind and open your heart. That can be terrifying. It requires complete vulnerability. If anything, we in the church are taught to want to believe. I certainly was, and I did want to believe. I had no biased suspicions, just a desire to know and believe. I hung on until I couldn't any longer. Sometimes I wonder how it is that people who so fervently want to believe and have faith end up hitting that wall anyway.
pogi Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 If anything, we in the church are taught to want to believe. I certainly was, and I did want to believe. I had no biased suspicions, just a desire to know and believe. I hung on until I couldn't any longer. Sometimes I wonder how it is that people who so fervently want to believe and have faith end up hitting that wall anyway. That is a very good question, and I can't answer for them. All I know is what I have experienced. Where I stand now, I am of the firm belief that if people remain vulnerable to truth and remain honestly uncertain rather than doubtful, they will eventually fall into an intimate dance with God. Perhaps they need to discover some truth outside the church first for that to happen...who knows? I don't doubt their sincerity or goodness. 1
jkwilliams Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 That is a very good question, and I can't answer for them. All I know is what I have experienced. Where I stand now, I am of the firm belief that if people remain vulnerable to truth and remain honestly uncertain rather than doubtful, they will eventually fall into an intimate dance with God. Perhaps they need to discover some truth outside the church first for that to happen...who knows? I don't doubt their sincerity or goodness. Speaking only for me, I had to let go of thinking in black-and-white terms and reach the point at which I was willing to let go and follow God where he led. It hasn't always been easy or fun, but it's been worth the trip.
pogi Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Speaking only for me, I had to let go of thinking in black-and-white terms and reach the point at which I was willing to let go and follow God where he led. It hasn't always been easy or fun, but it's been worth the trip. If you have been as vulnerable as you sound, than I am glad for you - some may think less of me for saying this, but you are where you need to be right now if that is true. We are on the same path my friend. I too had to abandon black-and-white terms (or leave the church) and let go and let God, as they say. It has been the scariest experience of my life, to the point of feeling like I might collapse in embracing uncertainty and tearing down the walls around my heart. My experience has led me to be more honest with myself and more honest with God, it has immeasurably increased my intimacy with God, and made me entirely confident that I am on the path that God wants me on right now (despite the difficulties of reconciling things in my mind).
CV75 Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Or maybe to put it another way, can you choose to believe in something that seems, to you, to be false? Can you control what seems true or false to you? Or can you choose not to believe in something that seems, to you, to be true?That is a perfect way of saying it. Thanks. You can choose to find some truth in or about that which seems to be false. Likewise, you can choose to find something wrong about or in that which seems to be true. In either case, you can control the process of finding (per Alma 32); there is no other way to discover and choose to believe or not.
Paloma Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 (edited) I've always thought it was funny when people quoted that line, as it comes from Polonius, the most two-faced, duplicitous character in Hamlet. Still, it's a good quote. John, how about these words from perhaps a preferable source, George Herbert: By all means use sometimes to be alone. Salute thyself: see what thy soul doth wear. Dare to look in thy chest; for ’t is thine own; And tumble up and down what thou find’st there. Who cannot rest till he good fellows finde, He breaks up house, turns out of doores his minde. As a non-Mormon, I find this conversation really interesting, and also realize I have nothing to say. But I find it encouraging to see the people here who have understanding and empathy for both sides. Edited October 7, 2015 by Paloma
jkwilliams Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 John, how about these words from perhaps a preferable source, George Herbert: By all means use sometimes to be alone. Salute thyself: see what thy soul doth wear. Dare to look in thy chest; for ’t is thine own; And tumble up and down what thou find’st there. Who cannot rest till he good fellows finde, He breaks up house, turns out of doores his minde. As a non-Mormon, I find this conversation really interesting, and also realize I have nothing to say. But I find it encouraging to see the people here who have understanding and empathy for both sides. George Herbert is one of my favorite poets. Thank you!
jkwilliams Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 You can choose to find some truth in or about that which seems to be false. Likewise, you can choose to find something wrong about or in that which seems to be true. In either case, you can control the process of finding (per Alma 32); there is no other way to discover and choose to believe or not. Thankfully, I have to answer only to myself and to God.
Gray Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 (edited) I don't understand. This has nothing to do with believing anything. I am talking about abandoning doubt (which is more of a belief really) for uncertainty. What I mean is that certain things, as we learn about them, strike us as being either true or untrue. Our reaction to truth propositions can change when confronted with new information, or as we experience changes to personality as we age, etc. But can we consciously choose whether or not something strikes us as true or false at a given moment? Can I choose to think that evolution is false, even though my reaction based on everything I've learned and based on the way I process information is that evolution seems true? I think at best I could only pretend to think it's false. I couldn't choose to think it's false. Whether we thing something is true or false doesn't seem to be a conscious choice to me. It's more of a reaction based on complex factors. Edited October 7, 2015 by Gray
rodheadlee Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 You just need to give Brother Tolkein a break. Choose to doubt your doubts...[insert any other special pleading catchphrase]Did Brother Tolkein offer a path to Eternal Life?
CV75 Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Thankfully, I have to answer only to myself and to God. The salient point being, or course, that you can choose and you can control the process!
jkwilliams Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 The salient point being, or course, that you can choose and you can control the process! I don't think, however, that you can control the outcome.
CV75 Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 I don't think, however, that you can control the outcome.You can actually do that too; it's called, "denial."
jkwilliams Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 You can actually do that too; it's called, "denial." Denying an outcome doesn't mean the outcome didn't happen.
iWriteStuff Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 I was about to write the same thing. Great minds... I don't agree with this at all. While it is natural to seek evidence for current beliefs as a validation, I think it is very different to consciensly CHOOSE to believe a certain way, especially if that goes against reason. There are all the standard, cliche examples; Can I choose to belive in Santa or that the world is flat. and then seek evidence to support my belief. Can I choose to believe The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy is really the key to understanding God? Can I choose to believe I can flap my arms and fly? I don't think it's possible. I can't imagine believing any of those things regardless of how much I want to believe. The evidence I experience (this would include spiritual as well as intellectual and physical evidence) causes a natural internal reaction of belief or skepticism.Never did I say that believing fiction makes it true. Merely that until confronted with reality, we can force ourselves to believe almost anything. For a while. Eternal truth, when discovered and acted on in faith, provides its own confirming evidence. 1
pogi Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 (edited) But can we consciously choose whether or not something strikes us as true or false at a given moment? I don't believe that we can. However, that does not prohibit us from keeping doubt in check in regard to spiritual matters. The way I do that is by acknowledging the limitations of human perception. If I had not kept doubt at bay in acceptance of uncertainty, I can assure you, I would not be a member today and would have missed out on priceless experiences in prayer. For example, there is more than enough "reason" for me to doubt the church and its truth claims. I have difficulty reconciling certain aspects of history - the Book of Abraham, Joseph hiding polygamy from Emma, other aspects of polygamy and polyandry, false teaching from prophets such as blood atonement and Adam God theory, the history of racism, anachronisms of the Book of Mormon, Gold plates, angels, inconsistent histories, etc., etc. On face value, Mormonism strikes me as untrue. When one comes to that realization after a life of "certainty", it is unsettling to say the least. At this unsettling realization, it can be easy to leave the church and justify your decision on the basis that "it strikes me as untrue". This takes all accountability off of your shoulders, and you become one who is acted upon rather than one who acts. We are more than chemical reaction responding to our environment, we do have agency and can choose to respond in different ways. I am not saying that we should choose to believe without reason, but I am saying that we should reserve doubt. We must admit that human perspective is limited. Keep an open mind and open heart. That is how I found God, when I could have easily written him off previously. Edited October 7, 2015 by pogi 3
ttribe Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Thanks! And you can call me John. Most people do. Wait, why does he get to call you John, but I still have to call you "Master" or "Sir"?!
HappyJackWagon Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Wait, why does he get to call you John, but I still have to call you "Master" or "Sir"?!Pecking order, TTribe. Pecking order.
ttribe Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 (edited) Pecking order, TTribe. Pecking order. But, I've been here SEVEN YEARS! I've done Master John's laundry more times than I can count, and I can't remember the last time I saw daylight when he had me ghostwriting one of his books, blogposts....oops. Back to square one I go with that disclosure.... Edited October 7, 2015 by ttribe 1
jkwilliams Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Wait, why does he get to call you John, but I still have to call you "Master" or "Sir"?!I have to maintain some standards.
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