CV75 Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 That's not been my experience. If there is any choice being made, it is unconscious, which means it's involuntary. I can only speak for myself, of course. An unconscious choice is an accident or mistake, lacking awareness and other elements of agency to count as a choice. Do you mean a choice arising from the subconscious? In that case, the choice is voluntary on the subconcious level--the same "spirit" is working whether the conscious level is in alignment with it or not. What is the point in establishing that belief is a choice?I think it is the acceptance that agency is absolutely fundamental to our existence (qualitatively an quantitatively), and that our will drives our management of it.
pogi Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 I think it is the acceptance that agency is absolutely fundamental to our existence (qualitatively an quantitatively), and that our will drives our management of it. I agree with that, but I think we need to put belief in the proper context. To me, belief is like a plant, it is not as simple as willing one into existence. Agency does play a role in belief in how we care for the seeds. Will we give place for the word of God (seeds) in our hearts or not? Belief must take its natural course and cannot be forced.
CV75 Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 I agree with that, but I think we need to put belief in the proper context. To me, belief is like a plant, it is not as simple as willing one into existence. Agency does play a role in belief in how we care for the seeds. Will we give place for the word of God (seeds) in our hearts or not? Belief must take its natural course and cannot be forced.Yes, belief is like a plant, and that plant grows from a seed (which is the word that God provided; Alma 32:28). So while we do not will the seed into existence (God provides it), we will the growth of the plant from that seed, beginning with a desire to believe (vs. 27). If the seed is good (which it is when it is from God), that growth becomes faith (vs. 29). So we awake and arouse out faculties, experiment, exercise a particle of faith, let the desire work within us, etc. -- all choices which we make to believe – until we believe in a manner that we can give place for the word (seed). The real growth emanates from there as we do not cast out the seed by our unbelief. 27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words. 28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me. 29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? 1
Avatar4321 Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Unless one is chosen and called, one simply will not respond to the Gospel. So if you have no desire to seek Jesus, perhaps you're not one of the elect. Rom 8:28We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, to those who are called according to his purpose. 29For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30Whom he predestined, those he also called. Whom he called, those he also justified. Whom he justified, those he also glorified. 2 Cor 4:3Even if our Good News is veiled, it is veiled in those who perish; 4in whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the Good News of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn on them. Clearly, not all are saved. I find it disappointing that the talk did not mention having faith in Jesus Christ, but rather simply encouraged belief. But, belief in what? Considering the fact that the Internet has opened the door to much controversy surrounding the LDS faith, I think the intention perhaps is to implant the notion that it's all about believing what you are told, rather than in Jesus Christ. Note the incidence of the young man who was chided for relying on "his own" understanding and intellect. Who's understanding and intellect should he have been loyal to instead of his own?The Lord's.Proverbs 3:5-6How do you not know this?
Gray Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Yes, and you can too.But you can choose to not believe that. It must be a super power, because it also grants you access into the inner workings of the minds of others
pogi Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 (edited) Yes, belief is like a plant, and that plant grows from a seed (which is the word that God provided; Alma 32:28). So while we do not will the seed into existence (God provides it), we will the growth of the plant from that seed, beginning with a desire to believe (vs. 27). If the seed is good (which it is when it is from God), that growth becomes faith (vs. 29). So we awake and arouse out faculties, experiment, exercise a particle of faith, let the desire work within us, etc. -- all choices which we make to believe – until we believe in a manner that we can give place for the word (seed). The real growth emanates from there as we do not cast out the seed by our unbelief. You spelled it out more clearly than I did, but this is what I have been saying. The only part that I would word differently is the underlined part. These are not choices that one makes "to believe" per se, rather, these are choices that one makes "to experiment" on the word. Testing the word is not the same as "choosing to believe" the word, because they are still undecided - else it would not be a test. The only choice they have made at this stage is to desire, to hope, and to test. So, to say that it is possible to choose to believe in something which we perceive to be false by simply making a self-determined choice contrary to our perceptions and feelings is kind of negating the more organic and "unconscious" or "subconscious" (whichever you prefer) "choice" of believing. Either way, belief usually is not a conscious choice one makes, it is usually a realization of sorts - a discovery. Experiments lead to discoveries, so it is with belief in the word of God. You are right that our conscious choices are the precurssors to those discoveries. Edited October 9, 2015 by pogi
Ahab Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Faith and uncertainty, by definition, co-exist:And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true (Alma 32:21).And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith (Ether 12:6).Faith is action based hope in things which are true. There is no "certainty" in hope. Are you conflating certainty with trust?Try Hebrews 11:1 as Joseph Smith translated it: Faith is the substance/assurance of things hoped for.... Meaning to have faith is to be assured that the things that are hoped for are true. Faith is not hope, or not only hope We start with hope by considering the possibility that maybe, just maybe, what we are considering is true, but if or when we start to feel sure that what we are considering is true we then go from having just hope to having faith too, being sure then of what we had only hoped for. Still having hope, but then also having an assurance (or being sure) that what we hope for is true.
Ahab Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 What is the point in establishing that belief is a choice? Even if that were true, it is not helpful to the discussion as no one will believe in things that they perceive as false, even if they in theory, could. To do so is dishonest and fruitless. It does not, and cannot, have the power necessary to drive action, which gives birth to faith. It is like trying to serve two masters!It is also a choice to believe that something is false, so realizing that all beliefs start with a choice can help a person to realize there is a point before they make a choice to believe or not believe something. It's not like they're stuck with no choice after they decide whether to believe or not believe something. It is usually referred to as changing one's mind. And it is possible to go back and forth from believing to not believing forever. Not that I advise it, but it is possible. I prefer to make the right choice the first time not making up my mind,either way until I feel an assurance from God to help me make the right choice.
Ahab Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 It must be a super power, because it also grants you access into the inner workings of the minds of others Yep, sure enough.
CV75 Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 You spelled it out more clearly than I did, but this is what I have been saying. The only part that I would word differently is the underlined part. These are not choices that one makes "to believe" per se, rather, these are choices that one makes "to experiment" on the word. Testing the word is not the same as "choosing to believe" the word, because they are still undecided - else it would not be a test. The only choice they have made at this stage is to desire, to hope, and to test. So, to say that it is possible to choose to believe in something which we perceive to be false by simply making a self-determined choice contrary to our perceptions and feelings is kind of negating the more organic and "unconscious" or "subconscious" (whichever you prefer) "choice" of believing. Either way, belief usually is not a conscious choice one makes, it is usually a realization of sorts - a discovery. Experiments lead to discoveries, so it is with belief in the word of God. You are right that our conscious choices are the precurssors to those discoveries. We are choosing to believe, at the very least, in the process Alma describes, which as part of God’s word, is a seed as well. I think the phrase, “until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words” speaks to this. We choose to believe this and so awake, arouse, experiment, etc. (and while some are at the very least choosing to desire to believe, it is not always necessary to begin at that lowest rung of the ladder) and then discover through the “swelling motions” a belief in the rest of the message. I think denial is a form of choosing to believe in something we perceive to be false (or conversely, not believing in something we perceive to be true, as did Korihor in Alma 30:53). Sometimes this is done through straight-out self-deception, and sometimes by distracting oneself from an unpleasant truth or falsehood with substituting or competing ideas. People in dysfunctional relationships often suffer with this dynamic. The subconscious and conscious of the same person make conflicting choices, just as the will of the spirit and the will of the flesh (Romans 7:15-25). The often negate each other, but with victory through Christ they eventually come together. Thus the realization or discovery of belief must be preceded by the choice to believe. Oddly, it seems to be easier to see this in action with Korihor! But we can also see it with the man in Mark 9:24. As opposed to denial being a form of choosing to disbelieve the opposite of what we perceive, affirmation is a form of choosing to believe in something we perceive to be true.
pogi Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Try Hebrews 11:1 as Joseph Smith translated it: Faith is the substance/assurance of things hoped for.... Meaning to have faith is to be assured that the things that are hoped for are true. Faith is not hope, or not only hope We start with hope by considering the possibility that maybe, just maybe, what we are considering is true, but if or when we start to feel sure that what we are considering is true we then go from having just hope to having faith too, being sure then of what we had only hoped for. Still having hope, but then also having an assurance (or being sure) that what we hope for is true. "Assurance" is not the same as "certainty". Assurances breed confidence, but lack certainty. These assurances are clearly outlined in Alma 32. It is explicit that these assurances are not the same as certainty or perfect knowledge. …it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me. Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge (vs 28-29). 1
Ahab Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 "Assurance" is not the same as "certainty". Assurances breed confidence, but lack certainty. These assurances are clearly outlined in Alma 32. It is explicit that these assurances are not the same as certainty or perfect knowledge. …it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me. Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge (vs 28-29).Certainty isn't necessarily absolute certainty. To my understanding being certain and being sure are the same thing, with being sure not necessarily being absolutely sure either.I often go from being kinda sure about something, maybe, to being pretty sure about it, and then being really sure until I have become absolutely sure that something is true, or good, or whatever, even sometimes being absolutely sure that something is evil and not worth my time doing it.
pogi Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 (edited) We are choosing to believe, at the very least, in the process Alma describes, which as part of God’s word, is a seed as well. I think the phrase, “until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words” speaks to this. We choose to believe this and so awake, arouse, experiment, etc. (and while some are at the very least choosing to desire to believe, it is not always necessary to begin at that lowest rung of the ladder) and then discover through the “swelling motions” a belief in the rest of the message. I agree that we can start at different rungs on the ladder, but that is not determined by choice, but is determined by our own perceptions from life experience. If our perceptions align even slightly with Alma's words, than we can give place for belief. But, If I perceive this is a bunch of non-sense, evil, or ignorant from the get-go, I cannot chose to believe until new light changes my perspective. It is unrealistic to tell that person that they can choose to believe if they would just use their agency harder. Edited October 9, 2015 by pogi 2
pogi Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 (edited) Certainty isn't necessarily absolute certainty. If you are equating "certainty" with confidence based on your perception of assurances, than we are having semantic differences only. In my mind, "certainty" leaves no room for possible error. When I said that faith and uncertainty coexist, I was saying that faith and the lack of perfect knowledge coexist. I think we can agree with that. To me, certainty is nothing more than stiff necked ignorance. It doesn't leave room for other possibilities despite its lack of absolute certainty. It is the cause of ignorant evil performed in the name of God. It is dangerous. Edited October 9, 2015 by pogi
CV75 Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 I agree that we can start at different rungs on the ladder, but that is not determined by choice, but is determined by our own perceptions from life experience. If our perceptions align even slightly with Alma's words, than we can give place for belief. But, If I perceive this is a bunch of non-sense, evil, or ignorant from the get-go, I cannot chose to believe until new light changes my perspective. It is unrealistic to tell that person that they can choose to believe if they would just use their agency harder.Perspective is as dependent on internal processes as it is external forces. New light can help, and so can new attitudes. Both can lead to truth, and trying harder isn’t always the answer. Alma is showing how internal desire and perceiving the word are bridged through choice. Leaving aside autonomic, reflexive and instinctive responses (as organic creatures), we act on our perceptions (and other things) only by choice, unless our agency is impinged or impaired. Our perceptions can be enhanced or degraded depending on a number of factors, some arising from our choices and some not, but nevertheless we choose whether to believe our perceptions and whether to act on them. God does not force us to believe; we have to choose to do so, and Alma is inviting people to choose to believe to apply the means to choose best. He is inviting people to choose to believe in and follow a spiritual process so they can choose to believe in and follow God’s word. His invitation is not always accepted, but he is inviting people to choose and try it “until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.” To me, this doesn’t mean “try harder to believe in a manner…” but to simply persist in it, which is a choice to believe in persisting. He practices what he preaches by leaving that determination up to the experimenters by using “if” quite a bit: “if ye will awake and arouse your faculties …if ye can no more than desire to believe …if ye give place …if ye do not cast it out,” etc. So, if people do not believe him, they are choosing to not believe him. He is not telling them to believe him, nor to believe him by working harder, only inviting them into the process of discovery, and leaving the rest to them.
ttribe Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Perspective is as dependent on internal processes as it is external forces. New light can help, and so can new attitudes. Both can lead to truth, and trying harder isn’t always the answer. Alma is showing how internal desire and perceiving the word are bridged through choice. Leaving aside autonomic, reflexive and instinctive responses (as organic creatures), we act on our perceptions (and other things) only by choice, unless our agency is impinged or impaired. Our perceptions can be enhanced or degraded depending on a number of factors, some arising from our choices and some not, but nevertheless we choose whether to believe our perceptions and whether to act on them. God does not force us to believe; we have to choose to do so, and Alma is inviting people to choose to believe to apply the means to choose best. He is inviting people to choose to believe in and follow a spiritual process so they can choose to believe in and follow God’s word. His invitation is not always accepted, but he is inviting people to choose and try it “until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.” To me, this doesn’t mean “try harder to believe in a manner…” but to simply persist in it, which is a choice to believe in persisting. He practices what he preaches by leaving that determination up to the experimenters by using “if” quite a bit: “if ye will awake and arouse your faculties …if ye can no more than desire to believe …if ye give place …if ye do not cast it out,” etc. So, if people do not believe him, they are choosing to not believe him. He is not telling them to believe him, nor to believe him by working harder, only inviting them into the process of discovery, and leaving the rest to them. Have you ever tried (what I bolded) for extended period of time? If so, could you elaborate on your experience(s), please?
CV75 Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Have you ever tried (what I bolded) for extended period of time? If so, could you elaborate on your experience(s), please?I guess I do it every day, almost part of my faith or character. A choice to believe in persisting in the Lord is part of "enduring to the end." With regards to believing in a particular doctrine or principle of faith, as an adult convert I never felt I had a grasp of the atonement. I held on to my testimonies of the Church, Book of Mormon, and the Christ (in a general way, as our Savior, whatever that really meant--I never felt comfortable with what it really meant). I either felt, hoped, knew or had faith in that I was in the right place and doing the right things (sometimes generally, sometimes specifically). On my my mission I asked my mission president about the atonement, sharing my thoughts on it, and he looked at me as if he feared for my soul! Or how could I be teaching the gospel and have such a poor understanding! LOL Maybe that was just my perception... At any rate, some 30 years later I got the answer from an Ensign article, and it just dawned on me all of a sudden. Just one example; there are points I still haven't a clue about but I persist because I choose to believe in the principle of enduring to the end. Another example are life-long "thorns of the flesh" that are miraculously beginning to resolve. For me, it takes time and the choice to believe in some things while not understanding others. 1
ttribe Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 I guess I do it every day, almost part of my faith or character. A choice to believe in persisting in the Lord is part of "enduring to the end." With regards to believing in a particular doctrine or principle of faith, as an adult convert I never felt I had a grasp of the atonement. I held on to my testimonies of the Church, Book of Mormon, and the Christ (in a general way, as our Savior, whatever that really meant--I never felt comfortable with what it really meant). I either felt, hoped, knew or had faith in that I was in the right place and doing the right things (sometimes generally, sometimes specifically). On my my mission I asked my mission president about the atonement, sharing my thoughts on it, and he looked at me as if he feared for my soul! Or how could I be teaching the gospel and have such a poor understanding! LOL Maybe that was just my perception... At any rate, some 30 years later I got the answer from an Ensign article, and it just dawned on me all of a sudden. Just one example; there are points I still haven't a clue about but I persist because I choose to believe in the principle of enduring to the end. Another example are life-long "thorns of the flesh" that are miraculously beginning to resolve. For me, it takes time and the choice to believe in some things while not understanding others. Okay, so for you it seems there are elements here and there that you might have to wait on in terms of expanding your understanding or increasing your faith, but not foundational issues. Is that fair?
pogi Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 CV, I think we are closer than we like to admit sometimes - yes, ultimately agency directs belief. I think we can agree on that. I will refer you back to post 250. That is my last word on the subject.
ttribe Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 CV, I think we are closer than we like to admit sometimes - yes, ultimately agency directs belief. I think we can agree on that. I will refer you back to post 250. That is my last word on the subject. Sorry, couldn't resist.
CV75 Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 CV, I think we are closer than we like to admit sometimes - yes, ultimately agency directs belief. I think we can agree on that. I will refer you back to post 250. That is my last word on the subject. Cool. I always thought we were close -- just drilling down! Thank you for the conversation. I hadn't read #250. You said there, "I am of the firm conviction that we simply cannot believe what we perceive to be false..." I would only add, "...in the very moment of perception," since perceptions change with Alma's experiment.
CV75 Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Okay, so for you it seems there are elements here and there that you might have to wait on in terms of expanding your understanding or increasing your faith, but not foundational issues. Is that fair?I would say the Atonement is quite the foundational issue! I chose faith over understanding because life went so much better than when I didn't.
ttribe Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 I would say the Atonement is quite the foundational issue! I chose faith over understanding because life went so much better than when I didn't. Well, you didn't elaborate on what part of the Atonement you are referring to (the actual existence of it?), so I wasn't sure.
CV75 Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Well, you didn't elaborate on what part of the Atonement you are referring to (the actual existence of it?), so I wasn't sure.OK -- and since I wouldn't want to get into the details of that anyway, let's assume my concerns were not foundational by your standards, for the sake of discussion. But in any given trial of faith, a particle of faith always seems to have served me better than my partial and imperfect understanding, and a "swelling motion" has served me better than a specific (mis)perception.
ttribe Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 OK -- and since I wouldn't want to get into the details of that anyway, let's assume my concerns were not foundational by your standards, for the sake of discussion. But in any given trial of faith, a particle of faith always seems to have served me better than my partial and imperfect understanding, and a "swelling motion" has served me better than a specific (mis)perception. Okay, just curious. Obviously, I'm familiar with Alma's counsel.
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