President Uchtdorf On "choosing To Believe"

[ttribe]

I have to maintain some standards.

 

Yeah, not the first time I've heard that one...

[CV75]

Denying an outcome doesn't mean the outcome didn't happen.

 

In the context of controlling the outcome, which is subjectively perceived, it most certainly does -- not perceiving, recognizing or acknowledging the outcome is the result of and the reason for denying it! That is why it is called self-deception. Denial can be preemptive as well as retrospective.

[Hamba Tuhan]

For example, there is more than enough "reason" for me to doubt the church and its truth claims.

 

Joseph Smith Jnr: 'If I had not experienced what I have, I should not have believed it myself'.

[CV75]

But can we consciously choose whether or not something strikes us as true or false at a given moment?

Given that we experience a string of given moments, and any given thing can be perceived as true or false from various perspectives, it's all in the preparation, and that is a conscious choice. It depends on how much discipline (that is, using spiritual, scientific or any of the dozens of types of intelligence) one is willing and able to put into his perceptions.

[ERayR]

Can I choose to think that evolution is false, even though my reaction based on everything I've learned and based on the way I process information is that evolution seems true? I think at best I could only pretend to think it's false. I couldn't choose to think it's false.

 

Whether we thing something is true or false doesn't seem to be a conscious choice to me. It's more of a reaction based on complex factors. 

 

IMNSHO it is.  If you choose to think evolution is false it is because of some information you have or it is a religious reason.  If you choose to believe it true it is because you believe the scientific information you have.  I doubt that a person without any information on the subject would have a belief one way or the other.

 

Whether you choose think evolution true or false is dependent on how much credence and weight you give the information you have one way or the other.

[jkwilliams]

IMNSHO it is.  If you choose to think evolution is false it is because of some information you have or it is a religious reason.  If you choose to believe it true it is because you believe the scientific information you have.  I doubt that a person without any information on the subject would have a belief one way or the other.

 

Whether you choose think evolution true or false is dependent on how much credence and weight you give the information you have one way or the other.

 

Maybe some people are just wired differently. I can't remember ever believing in young-earth creationism, as to me I have always felt it defies all reason and evidence. For that matter, I don't remember ever believing evolution was false. I did believe that Joseph Fielding Smith was right that evolution was incompatible with certain teachings about the creation and fall, but I figured that meant our understanding of those events was limited. 

[ERayR]

Maybe some people are just wired differently. I can't remember ever believing in young-earth creationism, as to me I have always felt it defies all reason and evidence. For that matter, I don't remember ever believing evolution was false. I did believe that Joseph Fielding Smith was right that evolution was incompatible with certain teachings about the creation and fall, but I figured that meant our understanding of those events was limited. 

 

Still you chose what you were going to believe based on the information you had.  You felt the evidence for outweighed the evidence against.

[jkwilliams]

Still you chose what you were going to believe based on the information you had.  You felt the evidence for outweighed the evidence against.

 

But the question is why do people weigh evidence differently? I don't think it's entirely a matter of choice. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

I think one contributing factor is experience. When we 'weigh evidence', we have to choose an interpretative mechanism (or mechanisms) to use in the weighing, and the range of mechanisms we can choose from as well as which choice(s) we are most likely to make are both strongly influenced by past personal experience.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Hamba Tuhan

[SteveO]

I must confess this thread had me pretty sleepless last night and more than a little preoccupied today...Granted, this is from facebook, but I wanted to share it and see what you guys thought.  I believe the talk that really spoke to her was President Uchtdorf's talk which we are discussing...Like to get your guys' thoughts on it:

 

I am in shock and awe... and greatly humbled! You 40 thousand (plus) sweet humans who "liked" my last post (about Pres. Uchtdorf on the edge of his seat) ....You have no idea what happened to me personally on Sunday and what it all means for me....
Here's what you did not know and the personal events that transpired:
I have/had been struggling for months with my testimony. I almost up and quit. Everything. My doubt was strong as was my bitterness and hopelessness. 
I couldn't unsee or unread or unhear the negative things I had seen, read, and heard. 
I could not unreason the evidences and the psychology that supported my tremendous doubt. There was no way back to believing. All hope and wonder was lost. 
...Or so I thought.

I was very lucky to have a friend give me a ticket to the Sunday morning session of General Conference. Saturday night I thought of a million reasons NOT to go to conference the next morning. Most of them had to do with not getting to sleep in. smile emoticon
But as precious as sleep is to me, for some reason, I really don't know why, my body got up and got dressed and headed to Salt Lake City early Sunday morning. And as I drove from Provo, for once, I decided to give my doubts a rest for just that day, and go to the conference center that morning with faith. ...Even if my faith was so small that a mustard seed would dwarf it. 
The morning session was lovely. There was a really nice spirit there attending the speakers and the music by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. (And I witnessed great love between the brethren when Uchtdorf carried Monson to his seat.)
I felt a little bit renewed. A tiny bit of hope. (Was it enough?) Maybe there was something to this church.
I looked around and was in awe of these people, thousands of them, congregated to hear the word of God. THAT is what was most inspiring to me. There was a feeling of love for one another, hope and happiness everywhere ....And I desired to hear and feel more. 
So in between sessions I walked around temple square, hoping to snag a ticket to the second session. 
Then, after seeing so many people around begging for tickets, I decided that there's no way I could get a ticket - and besides, I had already attended the morning session; why did I deserve to attend the second session as well? I could just watch it on the Internet at a later time. (That wasn't really going to happen, I was kidding myself.)
So, feeling resigned to missing the second session, I sat at the base of the flag pole directly in front of the temple, watched all the happy people walk by....and got lost in my thoughts (doubts) again. I sat and wondered if I had really felt anything "real" that morning. I wondered why organized religion was necessary or even a good thing in this world.... And why is this Mormon church run by a bunch of old men?... I Wondered if I would ever really have the breakthrough I needed to find faith again... Or if I would continue through the years not really "knowing" anything and doubting everything. 
Suddenly my thoughts were interrupted by a sister missionary who said hello and asked me about my story, but- before I could say much, a group of (college aged) young ladies were right in front of me, one of them with something in her hand, extending it towards me. "Would you like to have this ticket?" 
I was so surprised and grateful. I took the ticket, happily thanked them, and they disappeared as quickly as they showed up. 
Although I was grateful, I immediately felt guilty and started looking around to see if there was someone who might like to have this ticket more than me.... 
Then... I looked down at the ticket - and my jaw dropped. 
The sister missionary was still at my side. "What is it?" she asked. 
"That's my name. ....Michelle", I said, shocked.

My NAME was on the ticket.

The sister smiled. "That's not just a coincidence. Someone wants you in there. God works in mysterious ways, Michelle.... Go on...", she beamed, "get in there".

I smiled, grabbed my purse and looked at the time: 1:55pm. I had five minutes to get to the conference center, get through security, and sit down before they closed the doors. 
I must have looked like the biggest nerd grinning ear to ear, running in a dress, through temple square towards the conference building. But I did not care. smile emoticon
With a renewed spark of hope (IS God aware of me? DOES he have a message for me to hear? What could EVER make my extremely strong doubts go away....?),
I rushed inside, through security and sat down just as the meeting began.
I sat nervously, as the choir began to sing and I again wondered and prayed... Please God, speak to me. Please touch my heart. Please give me answers....
What was going to be said this afternoon? Who was speaking? Will I feel anything REAL? Will there be ANY answers? Will any of my doubts be dispelled? Is it possible that God really did want me here? Was this meeting really going to make any difference at all? Could this be what finally changed my views and my heart?

.......

YES!!!!!!! YES! Seriously- YES!!!!!!!!!

Brothers and Sisters- YES. It was quite amazing. I will not go into detail (because of the length of this post) but if you watched or heard the second session, you probably know exactly what touched me and the answers I got. My hands were shaking as I wrote down all the insights that were spoken and that flooded my mind. My heart was cracked wide open and everything suddenly made sense....
Again, I looked around at this huge congregation of saints and was in awe of the Light that surrounded them. Such goodness and kindness that emanated from everyone, everywhere. And I finally GOT it. 
And FELT it. And yes, it's REAL. smile emoticon

I don't care anymore about my doubts or the things I could not reason away before. Somehow, my desire to dig into that pile of crud is gone. Because what I found when my heart filled with Love, is irreplaceable. And why would I want to replace Love with garbage anyway?

The saints aren't converted to a "church". The saints are converted to GOD and LOVE. And then UNITED in a church. 
They don't obey "old men" out of fear or conditioning. They choose to Love and follow GOD out of Love, by serving Him and others.

I can't believe how blind I was before. And I would have sworn to you that I was blind to nothing and was only seeking "truth" and "facts". 
But now... I SEE. For the first time in a long time, I SEE and I FEEL more light in my being.

And NOW- To cap it all off- there's all of YOU!!!! 
What a beautiful testimony that got added to my brand new faith!!!!!

40 THOUSAND (plus) of you have (on my previous post) shown your love and support for our Prophet and this Gospel and this way of life that IS Love! I am OVERWHELMED! 
You had NO IDEA what was happening in my life. ....And to see the Love and Unity spilled out onto my last post... Means more to me in this very moment of my life than you will EVER KNOW.

Thank you my friends. Thank you brothers and sisters from the bottom of my heart for just being you and sharing your love and testimony with me. It strengthens and solidifies what I experienced yesterday 100 fold....

This night, I now reflect back to the sister missionary yesterday....

Yes dear sister....

...God DOES work in mysterious ways. 

 

Edited to add:  I thought it interesting how she says her doubts didn't go away.  She just didn't care about them anymore.

Edited October 8, 2015 by SteveO

[SteveO]

Also, John: didn't realize you and the author of Heaven up Here were the same person!  Its on my books to read list, my sister said it was really good.  Do you have a blog or something where you share your thoughts on no longer believing?   I hate to keep picking your brain on things I'm sure you've gone over a hundred times on this board. 

[iWriteStuff]

SteveO that was an awesome post. Thanks a million for sharing that. I've been there myself, clinging halfway between abandonment of faith and a sliver of hope. Funny how clinging on just a few moments past your doubts allows them to fall away like scales from your eyes. Well, for me anyway.

[Tacenda]

Sometimes God reaches out, me...not so much. She's a lucky gal.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Tacenda

[lowroom]

With regard to this talk, as I have thought about it more it appears Pres. Uchtdorf was reversing course on the "doubt your doubts" circular logic he provided previously. If there is nothing positive to be found in doubt, that previous mantra would create a cycle of dispair for those that adhere to it.

The new message would be more accurately follow the advice to "be not doubting but believing"

[Bobbieaware]

With regard to this talk, as I have thought about it more it appears Pres. Uchtdorf was reversing course on the "doubt your doubts" circular logic he provided previously. If there is nothing positive to be found in doubt, that previous mantra would create a cycle of dispair for those that adhere to it.

The new message would be more accurately follow the advice to "be not doubting but believing"

Isn't doubting one's doubts pretty close to doubting not but being believing? If not precisely the same thing, both approaches to faith are at least closely related. Isn't it true the commandment to doubt not but be believing was given to those who already had doubts? The commandment certainly wasn't given to those who had no doubts. So a good place for a doubter to start toward the goal of perfect faith would be to doubt his doubts as a necessary progressive step on the way to learning how to be fully believing.

[CV75]

But the question is why do people weigh evidence differently? I don't think it's entirely a matter of choice. 

I think ultimately it is a matter of choice, with choices building line upon line, precept upon precept from the most incipient stages of a human development and agency. If it were otherwise, belief would simply be a matter of autonomic reflex or instinct, with every person having evolved into the same general beliefs from birth. But there is always going to be an element of will.

 

The reason people weigh evidence differently – which is different than not having a choice -- is a function of choice impacted to varying degrees by factors they have no control over, whether those are characteristics they are born with or develop, or impediments or assistance imposed upon them. Again, there is always going to be an element of will in how the navigate the opportunities to believe.

[jkwilliams]

I think ultimately it is a matter of choice, with choices building line upon line, precept upon precept from the most incipient stages of a human development and agency. If it were otherwise, belief would simply be a matter of autonomic reflex or instinct, with every person having evolved into the same general beliefs from birth. But there is always going to be an element of will.

 

The reason people weigh evidence differently – which is different than not having a choice -- is a function of choice impacted to varying degrees by factors they have no control over, whether those are characteristics they are born with or develop, or impediments or assistance imposed upon them. Again, there is always going to be an element of will in how the navigate the opportunities to believe.

 

Of course there is choice, but I think it's more complicated than a simple decision to "choose to believe." 

[CV75]

Of course there is choice, but I think it's more complicated than a simple decision to "choose to believe." 

Yes, choosing to believe (I'm glad that was established!) can be complicated or simple, depending on how all the factors I mentioned above are managed by the creature. After all, life is a test.

[HappyJackWagon]

I think ultimately it is a matter of choice, with choices building line upon line, precept upon precept from the most incipient stages of a human development and agency. If it were otherwise, belief would simply be a matter of autonomic reflex or instinct, with every person having evolved into the same general beliefs from birth. But there is always going to be an element of will.

 

The reason people weigh evidence differently – which is different than not having a choice -- is a function of choice impacted to varying degrees by factors they have no control over, whether those are characteristics they are born with or develop, or impediments or assistance imposed upon them. Again, there is always going to be an element of will in how the navigate the opportunities to believe.

This is interesting and gets into some deep philosophical weeds. Every person is unique and so are their experiences;The way they process information, The access they have to information, The sequence and timing of information, their emotional responses.

 

Claiming that belief stems from choice which is built line upon line, with no real beginning or conscious decision, impacting later decisions choice becomes a kind of deterministic model of belief for which the individual really has no direct choice.

 

I think that there are incalculable factors that impact the way we interact with the world. To claim belief is choice is to discount factors that may be unconscious or completely out of our control. Do humans have the ability to discard the impact of their environment and simply choose to believe something at odds with their life experience?

 

So when you argue that belief is a choice that stems from earlier actions and choices you are actually saying the person has no direct choice on what they believe but rather a choice only on some of the factors which may inform their instinctual belief.

[Gray]

I don't believe that we can.  However, that does not prohibit us from keeping doubt in check in regard to spiritual matters.  The way I do that is by acknowledging the limitations of human perception.  If I had not kept doubt at bay in acceptance of uncertainty, I can assure you, I would not be a member today and would have missed out on priceless experiences in prayer.

 

For example, there is more than enough "reason" for me to doubt the church and its truth claims.  I have difficulty reconciling certain aspects of history - the Book of Abraham, Joseph hiding polygamy from Emma, other aspects of polygamy and polyandry, false teaching from prophets such as blood atonement and Adam God theory, the history of racism, anachronisms of the Book of Mormon, Gold plates, angels, inconsistent histories, etc., etc.  On face value, Mormonism strikes me as untrue.  When one comes to that realization after a life of "certainty", it is unsettling to say the least.  

 

At this unsettling realization, it can be easy to leave the church and justify your decision on the basis that "it strikes me as untrue".  This takes all accountability off of your shoulders, and you become one who is acted upon rather than one who acts.  We are more than chemical reaction responding to our environment, we do have agency and can choose to respond in different ways.  I am not saying that we should choose to believe without reason, but I am saying that we should reserve doubt.  We must admit that human perspective is limited.  Keep an open mind and open heart. That is how I found God, when I could have easily written him off previously. 

 

So in essence, are you saying we can generally guide the course of our beliefs, like trimming a tree to grow a certain way?

 

Personally I have not experienced belief as a choice, except when faced with two ideas that are similar and equally plausible to me. Even then, I would tend not to choose one position with any solidity. I can't believe something if I think I'm fooling myself into believing it.  It's possible that others are able flexibly pick and choose what they can believe. I only know how my own mind works, of course. 

 

In my own path, that has lead me to reject orthodoxy, but not more progressive expressions of spirituality/worship. I am only able to believe what seems to me to be true. I have not been able to control what seems to be true to me. I've only been able to react and try to make sense of things. 

Edited October 8, 2015 by Gray

[Gray]

IMNSHO it is.  If you choose to think evolution is false it is because of some information you have or it is a religious reason.  If you choose to believe it true it is because you believe the scientific information you have.  I doubt that a person without any information on the subject would have a belief one way or the other.

 

Whether you choose think evolution true or false is dependent on how much credence and weight you give the information you have one way or the other.

 

But the underlying reaction to the scientific evolution. How do you choose how to react? Can you choose not to find ice to be cold? 

[CV75]

This is interesting and gets into some deep philosophical weeds. Every person is unique and so are their experiences;The way they process information, The access they have to information, The sequence and timing of information, their emotional responses.

 

Claiming that belief stems from choice which is built line upon line, with no real beginning or conscious decision, impacting later decisions choice becomes a kind of deterministic model of belief for which the individual really has no direct choice.

 

I think that there are incalculable factors that impact the way we interact with the world. To claim belief is choice is to discount factors that may be unconscious or completely out of our control. Do humans have the ability to discard the impact of their environment and simply choose to believe something at odds with their life experience?

 

So when you argue that belief is a choice that stems from earlier actions and choices you are actually saying the person has no direct choice on what they believe but rather a choice only on some of the factors which may inform their instinctual belief.

One man’s weed is another man’s flower… or misdemeanor in some States!

 

It is not deterministic when the choices are built on accountability, or when a person begins to be able to make choices. That is why withholding the various elements of agency from someone is so evil—it denies him the ability to choose according to his will. And this how Christ is so good—He avails the light of Christ to every human being so that everyone can exercise will and agency.

 

Yes, humans have the innate ability to ameliorate the impact of an “antichrist” environment with the “better angels of their nature” and thus choose to believe in something better. Victor Frankl is a good secular example of doing this (cultivating the "hidden relationship with the hidden God"). Hellen Keller is a more religious example (“Sometime after she had progressed to the point that she could engage in conversation, she was told of God and his love in sending Christ to die on the cross. She is said to have responded with joy, "I always knew he was there, but I didn't know his name!”—Wilmington’s Guide to the Bible, p. 591).

 

So belief is indeed a choice that begins with choosing to attend to the light of Christ. This is not an automatic or reflexive process. The light of Christ may be referred to as instinct, but attending to it is a function of will.

[CV75]

I have not been able to control what seems to be true to me. I've only been able to react and try to make sense of things. 

Consider that you only do not know that you are able to control what seems to be true to you. People talk themselves into things they sense aren't true all the time!

[jkwilliams]

People talk themselves into things they sense aren't true all the time!

 

I think I did that for about 40 years.

[pogi]

I am of the firm conviction that we simply cannot believe what we perceive to be false.  It is incongruous with our natures.  One cannot bridge that gap and maintain a sense of integrity and well-being.  The internal conflict and friction will be too great.  That is why people leave the church.

 

Here is what I have come to understand about myself and people in general.  People don't react to their environment as it is; what we react to is our perception of that environment.  In other words, our reaction to a given stimulus is not based on the stimulus in its reality; instead, our reaction is based on our perception of that stimulus in our reality.   

 

For example, In life (unlike physics, where an action always causes an equal and opposite reaction) one person may react completely different than another person given the same stimulus.  Our perceptions and judgements are the gravity of belief.  It is impossible to free ourselves from that gravitational pull.  The only way that belief can change is through a shift in perception and judgement.  That is why it is not always as simple as "choosing to believe".

 

If one acknowledges even a slight possibility of truth, with a desire, and hope, then there is room for belief to sprout.  I feel that we need to stop focusing so much on belief itself, and focus more on the soil and ground where belief grows - the heart.  The heart is the room where belief is held.  It is the soil that nourishes the seed (the word of God), causing it to bring forth fruit (according to parable). 

 

The question is, "how do we amend the soil?".  The parable of the sower gives us the key.  The way to the heart is by means of our ears and eyes.  "He who has ears to hear, let him hear..."  As the scriptures say, seeing and hearing leads to understanding in the heart.  We have to be willing to let ourselves see and hear.  I believe that is accomplished by altering the focus of our attention.  Where we choose to place our attention has a direct effect on the quality of our soil (heart).  This is where agency and choice affects belief!  This is why the scriptures plead to "let" yourselves hear, to keep an eye single to God, and to pray always.  Attention is everything!  It affects our perception, which affects our judgements, which affects our beliefs, which effects our faith. 

 

This was beautifully demonstrated by the experience that SteveO posted of that woman on Facebook who chose to suspend doubt temporarily and who gave a small room for desire and hope, she then altered the focus of her attention from doubt, to the word of God.  This one simple act had a profound effect on her, but if she chooses to shift her attention from God again, I am afraid this one experience will not be enough.  When our attention is distracted, we can quickly lose what we had.  We forget so easily the things of God, they are so delicate.