Utah And Polgyamy Kicker Outters

[Duncan]

I was wondering if the State of Utah or the Church does anything to help these "lost boys" who are these teen boys that get kicked out of these polgyamous groups and even girls too that run away? a related question polygamy even legal in Utah? why are these groups allowed to exist?

[Tacenda]

Been asking these questions for a long time...why is this allowed to go on? Where is the church's help? Where is the law? Especially when checking on the children's education? I thought it was a law to have them get the proper education.

Also, polygamy isn't quite legal yet. Saw this link... http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/3197863/posts

Plus, if you haven't already, watch....http://sonsofperditionthemovie.com/Sons_of_Perdition_Home.html.

I saw the premier when it first came out. The producers and main characters, along with other family members were there for questions afterwards.

Duncan, I do see a light at the end, things seem to be changing for the better with more exposure to this madness. I hope many will reunite with their sons once that stronghold is gone, once they open their eyes or the blindfold is off.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Tacenda

[VideoGameJunkie]

It makes you question D&C 132 because polygamy is right there. Do we discount scripture?

[Avatar4321]

Doesn't make me question it at all. Not sure why it should. The problem isn't polygamy. It's symptoms just show up in polygamy because they focus on it so much.

The problem is righteous dominion.

[Calm]

It makes you question D&C 132 because polygamy is right there. Do we discount scripture?

Do you discount monogamy when abuse occurs within that?

Of all the kids kicked out of their homes in history, I suspect the vast majority were from monogamous marriages or no marriage at all.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Calm

[JLHPROF]

I agree with Avatar. Polygamy isn't the problem, unrighteous dominion and wicked men usurping polygamy is the problem.

Polygamy when ordained of God (as Jacob 2 and D&C 132 both reference) is a good thing. As Jacob 2 and D&C 132 also tell us polygamy when God forbids it is a very big problem, and of course would bring all manner of sin with it.

[Rain]

The state, many members of the church and different organizations do things to help them and the girls who leave as well. A lot of the burden falls on those in the St George area since the majority of polygamists live in two towns along the Utah/Arizona border.

Polygamy is not legal, but it is not always easy the prosecute. Many of them don't believe you legally need to be married, just married of God. So if a man marries his first wife legally then by the eyes of the law he is just living with the other women. There is nothing to prosecute.

[Vance]

We have a former "lost boy" in our ward. Does sharing the Gospel with them count as doing anything to help them?

[rpn]

Yes, Duncan, there are groups that help the Lost Boys and Girls.  So can you.

 

http://holdingouthelp.org/

http://www.defendersofchildren.org/Home.html

http://www.childbrides.org/boys.html

[ksfisher]

The state, many members of the church and different organizations do things to help them and the girls who leave as well. A lot of the burden falls on those in the St George area since the majority of polygamists live in two towns along the Utah/Arizona border.

Polygamy is not legal, but it is not always easy the prosecute. Many of them don't believe you legally need to be married, just married of God. So if a man marries his first wife legally then by the eyes of the law he is just living with the other women. There is nothing to prosecute.

 

I also wonder if in today's legal/moral climate if the state is hesitant to attempt prosecution.  The case could very well end up in the supreme court and who knows what would happen then. 

[Storm Rider]

It is a sticky wicket for law enforcement and governments.  To enforce the law means breaking up families, which inevitably punishes women and children.  Texas tried it and got a black eye.  Utah tried it in the 30's or 40's ( cannot remember the date, but my wife's family was involved to a small degree) and it resulted in the same thing.  

 

How would you enforce it?  

 

I recall reading of several groups that attempt to assist these young men that have been cast out of their communities solely for being male.  If anyone cares enough about this issue I am sure you can find information on the web and provide as much assistance as you think is necessary or as you are able to provide.  

 

Almost anyone can complain about an issue, but it is the rare individual that provides assistance when they see the need.  

[cinepro]

Been asking these questions for a long time...why is this allowed to go on? Where is the church's help? Where is the law? Especially when checking on the children's education? I thought it was a law to have them get the proper education.

 

I used to wonder the same thing, until I learned about this.  There is some degree of risk if law enforcement decide to not allow it to go on.

[Robert F. Smith]

..........................................................

the majority of polygamists live in two towns along the Utah/Arizona border.

..............................................................

While it is true that the FLDS Church centered on Short Creek is the largest polygynous group, most polygynists do not belong to that group.  Polygynous groups and independent polygynists exist all over the Western USA, as well as in Canada and Mexico.  Here is a short listing:

 

Apostolic United Brethren (AUB) – headquartered in suburban SLC, is the second largest polygynous group.

 

Apostolic United Brethren (Joseph B. Thompson group) 

 

Aryan People’s Republic, Aryan People’s Army (ARA) – whites-only polygynous group founded in 1993 (or ca. 1996/1997) by a group of criminals.

 

Church of the Firstborn (Fred Collier)

 

Church of the Firstborn (Robert Black)

 

Church of the Firstborn (Ross LeBaron)

 

Church of the Firstborn (Tom Green) 

 

Church of the Firstborn and the General Assembly of Heaven / Holy Ghost of the Church of the Firstborn and the General Assembly of Heaven – founded in Magna, Utah, ca. 2001, later moved to Pocatello, Idaho, in 2009, and then in 2010 to Fromberg, Montana.

 

Davis County Cooperative Society (Kingston Group) 

 

Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (FLDS), formerly the Council of Friends (1934, Centerville, Utah), is the largest polygynous offshoot of the LDS Church, and has long been centered in Short Creek along that border, although it has many other settlements in various states.

 

True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days (TLC) based in Manti, Utah

 

YFZ

[Robert F. Smith]

I also wonder if in today's legal/moral climate if the state is hesitant to attempt prosecution.  The case could very well end up in the supreme court and who knows what would happen then. 

At that time, laws against bigamy, trigamy, and polygamy would be declared unconstitutional.

[ksfisher]

At that time, laws against bigamy, trigamy, and polygamy would be declared unconstitutional.

 

7 brides for 7 brothers could take on a whole new meaning.

[RevTestament]

I was wondering if the State of Utah or the Church does anything to help these "lost boys" who are these teen boys that get kicked out of these polgyamous groups and even girls too that run away? a related question polygamy even legal in Utah? why are these groups allowed to exist?

I think LDS members try to offer assistance, but I don't really know of a centralized effort by the state or the LDS church to offer assistance. It seems more on a case by case basis.

If something like a half-way house was offered and known about, perhaps more of these kids would be inclined to leave these polygamist groups. But there are a lot of legal aspects to these types of places - guardianship, legal emancipation, foster care, adoption, etc. Plus liability in the event of assault on others by any of the residents, or "assault" on the residents by the overseers, etc. I think those are issues the LDS church itself would rather avoid. But perhaps it could sponsor a hot-line or something like that so LDS members who wish to help these kids could get connected with them. Also so kids that get out have something concrete to offer others inside these groups who may wish to leave.

Polygamy is currently not legal in Utah, but based upon SCOTUS' recent rulings, SCOTUS may soon invalidate state bans on polygamy. However, if the polygamous relationships are consensual among the wives, and the kids are happy, I don't see much point in going in and prosecuting them.

Most of these groups formed when the LDS church banned polygamous marriages. They mostly seem to believe that polygamous relationships are "exalting" or needed for us to be exalted - a belief I do not share - so they left the LDS church.

Groups like the FLDS do not follow the revelations accepted and published by the church such as D&C 132 which make it clear that for polygamy to be unsinful, it must be consensual or directly commanded by the Lord. Their leaders just make it a commandment and something their young women must submit to - involuntarily many times. Hence, they have made it a plague and a tool of Satan.

[thesometimesaint]

I was wondering if the State of Utah or the Church does anything to help these "lost boys" who are these teen boys that get kicked out of these polgyamous groups and even girls too that run away? a related question polygamy even legal in Utah? why are these groups allowed to exist?

 

There groups that help support those that are kicked out or flee the polygamous groups. I assume some are even Church members. But TTBOMK we don't have a Church program designed specifically for them. Again I don't know of any State agency whose function it is to care for those young people specifically. They may but I just don't know. The State of Utah has laws against polygamy/bigamy. Most polygamy is underground, legally speaking. So it is hard to enforce laws against something you suspect but can't tie to directly to any individual or small group of individuals. If members of the Church are found to be in polygamous marriages they are quickly excommunicated from the Church. We're not a law enforcement agency so that limits our responsibility for prosecuting them.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

The "Lost Boys" only come from the FLDS Church, not other polygamous groups/churches.

So, again, I would humbly request you make distinctions- just as you would have people do concerning your organization.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

 

While it is true that the FLDS Church centered on Short Creek is the largest polygynous group, most polygynists do not belong to that group.  Polygynous groups and independent polygynists exist all over the Western USA, as well as in Canada and Mexico.  Here is a short listing:

 

Apostolic United Brethren (AUB) – headquartered in suburban SLC, is the second largest polygynous group.

 

Apostolic United Brethren (Joseph B. Thompson group) 

 

Aryan People’s Republic, Aryan People’s Army (ARA) – whites-only polygynous group founded in 1993 (or ca. 1996/1997) by a group of criminals.

 

Church of the Firstborn (Fred Collier)

 

Church of the Firstborn (Robert Black)   Robert has converted to Islam

 

Church of the Firstborn (Ross LeBaron)

 

Church of the Firstborn (Tom Green) 

 

Church of the Firstborn and the General Assembly of Heaven / Holy Ghost of the Church of the Firstborn and the General Assembly of Heaven – founded in Magna, Utah, ca. 2001, later moved to Pocatello, Idaho, in 2009, and then in 2010 to Fromberg, Montana.   Defunct- founder serving looong sentence for sex abuse

 

Davis County Cooperative Society (Kingston Group) 

 

Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (FLDS), formerly the Council of Friends (1934, Centerville, Utah), is the largest polygynous offshoot of the LDS Church, and has long been centered in Short Creek along that border, although it has many other settlements in various states.

 

True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days (TLC) based in Manti, Utah

 

YFZ   Was property owned by FLDS Church

 

 

Righteous Branch of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Gerald Peterson)

I don't believe Tom Green claims to run a church. Independent Fundamentalism is divided more into Patriarchal families rather than churches. Tom claims to be an adopted "son" of Ross Lebaron, same with Fred Collier. They in turn have sons and adopted "sons"- they in turn become Patriarchs with sons and "sons" of their own- and so on...

Edited September 11, 2015 by BookofMormonLuvr

[Robert F. Smith]

7 brides for 7 brothers could take on a whole new meaning.

Yeh, them women was a sobbin, sobbin, sobbin -- wives against their will.

 

Where is Russ Tamblyn when we need him?

[Robert F. Smith]

 

Righteous Branch of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Gerald Peterson)

I don't believe Tom Green claims to run a church. Independent Fundamentalism is divided more into Patriarchal families rather than churches. Tom claims to be an adopted "son" of Ross Lebaron, same with Fred Collier. They in turn have sons and adopted "sons"- they in turn become Patriarchs with sons and "sons" of their own- and so on...

Thanks for the helpful updates.  I knew Robert Black in the old days.  He used to joke about being a believer in polygyny, but having only one wife.  What about the following also:

 

Church of the Firstborn of the Fullness of Times (Alma D LeBaron Jr) 

 

Church of the Firstborn of the Fullness of Times (Fernando Castro Sr) 

 

Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times (Joel LeBaron)  

 

Church of the Lamb of God (Ervil LeBaron) 

 

Has anyone taken over for Joel and Ervil?

[JLHPROF]

Robert F. Smith, on 10 Sept 2015 - 12:37 PM, said:

 

While it is true that the FLDS Church centered on Short Creek is the largest polygynous group, most polygynists do not belong to that group.  Polygynous groups and independent polygynists exist all over the Western USA, as well as in Canada and Mexico.  Here is a short listing:

 

Apostolic United Brethren (AUB) – headquartered in suburban SLC, is the second largest polygynous group.

 

Apostolic United Brethren (Joseph B. Thompson group) 

 

Aryan People’s Republic, Aryan People’s Army (ARA) – whites-only polygynous group founded in 1993 (or ca. 1996/1997) by a group of criminals.

 

Church of the Firstborn (Fred Collier)

 

Church of the Firstborn (Robert Black)   Robert has converted to Islam

 

Church of the Firstborn (Ross LeBaron)

 

Church of the Firstborn (Tom Green) 

 

Church of the Firstborn and the General Assembly of Heaven / Holy Ghost of the Church of the Firstborn and the General Assembly of Heaven – founded in Magna, Utah, ca. 2001, later moved to Pocatello, Idaho, in 2009, and then in 2010 to Fromberg, Montana.   Defunct- founder serving looong sentence for sex abuse

 

Davis County Cooperative Society (Kingston Group) 

 

Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (FLDS), formerly the Council of Friends (1934, Centerville, Utah), is the largest polygynous offshoot of the LDS Church, and has long been centered in Short Creek along that border, although it has many other settlements in various states.

 

True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days (TLC) based in Manti, Utah

 

YFZ   Was property owned by FLDS Church

 

 

 

 
Righteous Branch of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Gerald Peterson)

I don't believe Tom Green claims to run a church. Independent Fundamentalism is divided more into Patriarchal families rather than churches. Tom claims to be an adopted "son" of Ross Lebaron, same with Fred Collier. They in turn have sons and adopted "sons"- they in turn become Patriarchs with sons and "sons" of their own- and so on...

 

WAY more than these - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sects_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement#Mormon_fundamentalist

 

Especially to the topic of the OP - don't forget the FLDS offshoot groups -

 

Centennial Park/Second Ward (Arizona)

 

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Kingdom of God/Third Ward (Neilsen/Naylors - mostly Bluffdale)

 

The Church of Jesus Christ (Original Doctrine) Inc./Blackmore Group (Bountiful Canada)

[Robert F. Smith]

 

Robert F. Smith, on 10 Sept 2015 - 12:37 PM, said:

 

 

 

WAY more than these - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sects_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement#Mormon_fundamentalist

 

Especially to the topic of the OP - don't forget the FLDS offshoot groups -

 

Centennial Park/Second Ward (Arizona)

 

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Kingdom of God/Third Ward (Neilsen/Naylors - mostly Bluffdale)

 

The Church of Jesus Christ (Original Doctrine) Inc./Blackmore Group (Bountiful Canada)

 

Thank you so much, JLHPROF.

[cinepro]

Yeh, them women was a sobbin, sobbin, sobbin -- wives against their will.

 

Where is Russ Tamblyn when we need him?

 

I met Russ Tamblyn after a screening of West Side Story years ago.  I told him how much I liked him in 7B47B, and he seemed genuinely pleased to hear it and said that was one of his favorite movies to do. 

 

That was always one of my family's favorites, until my older sister went off to BYU and became a feminist and chastised us all for enjoying such a terrible movie the next time we watched it at Christmas.

[Duncan]

I met Russ Tamblyn after a screening of West Side Story years ago.  I told him how much I liked him in 7B47B, and he seemed genuinely pleased to hear it and said that was one of his favorite movies to do. 

 

That was always one of my family's favorites, until my older sister went off to BYU and became a feminist and chastised us all for enjoying such a terrible movie the next time we watched it at Christmas.

 

 

um, what? who is Russ Tamblyn? was he on CHiPS?

Edited September 11, 2015 by Duncan