Claims That The Maxwell Institute No Longer Does Ancient Studies And The Bom Are False

[Robert F. Smith]

I remember saying so at the time and thinking that the offer to join BYU wasn't one that FARMS could realistically refuse. 

The Board should have asked me to go up to the Church Office Bldg and have an audience with President Hinckley.  I would have begged him to please withdraw the invitation lest it kill the goose that lays golden eggs.  Once they accepted his invitation, the very thing which made FARMS unique and beautiful would be destroyed.

[Freedom]

I much prefer the new MI. I have been reading their publications since the 1980s. Apologetics is interesting, even entertaining, but it is narrow and often petty. 

[Anakin7]

LOAP I feel as a child left adrift in an ocean of rearrainged philosophies of men who forced there way in to take over the sea.

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

[ERayR]

I understand what you're saying. There's less of the jocular approach. Dan is still as productive as he's ever been, so people who enjoy his work don;t need to miss out. As the current director nears retirement and the Institute continues forward I hope more of these identity politics can go by the wayside. I think reasonable people can see that the Maxwell Institute can produce exceptional work in spite of personnel changes. I can understand why people are bothered by the circumstances. On a personal level I know the Institute isn't perfect, just as BYU and the church are run by imperfect people. I see some people have become less bothered the more they pay attention to what we're producing. Personnel changes don't determine whether Brant Gardner's forthcoming article in the Journal of Book of Mormon Studies is quality or not, or whether the Maxwell Institute Podcast is enjoyable.

 

I think we do our fellow members a disservice by lumping them into camps like "liberal," "conservative," "TBM," "Internet Mormons," "uncorrelated Mormons," and so forth. All of us are children of God with our own experiences and testimonies to share. As President Uchtdorf has suggested, church members should avoid dividing people into camps, judging whether someone's testimony is good enough, etc.

 

This speaks to one of the misconceptions a few people have generated about the Institute. While officially the Institute has no official position on how the BoA came to be (aside from the basic assertion that it is revelation, scripture, revealed by God to Joseph Smith), it's also not trying to take control of the position of the church to assert some sort of "pious fiction" theory or what have you.

 

 

I think Dan has made his feelings about the Institute known repeatedly and firmly. The Institute (wisely I think) has elected not to comment on personnel matters. That's not unusual for an institution, a university, or even a church if you want to make that comparison, though it's not exact. In the past I tried speaking to a few people in general terms about the way I personally saw things only to see my words twisted against me generating even more drama and gossip and bad feeling all around. I learned that it's best to let those things be. I can say there have been honestly hurt feelings on all sides here. My own decision has been to try to let it all go and just keep moving foreword.

I appreciate your perspective, thanks for sharing it readstoomuch. I don;t know who you are, but if you ever come around Provo you should stop in the Institute and say hello.

 

I am well aware of the politics of a secular universities but had hoped that at a church owned and operated university those who staffed it would have a tad bit more integrity.

[Bob Crockett]

It could be that he simply didn't have the stomach to face them, given that they were very formidable in his eyes, but that is merely my speculation.

 

However, even Ernest Wilkinson (once Pres of BYU) tried to cross swords with Louis Midgley, and Wilkinson lost and was humiliated -- deservedly so.

 

My hat's off to Lou!!!  My heart warms to the thought that Lou's a Communist.  Right.  I interviewed two others over that and considered a paper but probably am too close to the story.

Edited September 11, 2015 by Bob Crockett

[Robert F. Smith]

My hat's off to Lou!!!  My heart warms to the thought that Lou's a Communist.  Right.  I interviewed two others over that and considered a paper but probably am too close to the story.

An odd suggestion, seeing as how Lou is considered to be what you call a "conservative," and he can tell you tales of his own conversations with Pres Benson (in which they saw eye to eye, and Benson encouraged him), or of the time he and students from the Political Science department went to Washington, DC, for a semester of study.  Despite his PhD and wealth of experience, he came to realize there something very surprising to him:  There was no substantive difference between the two major political parties, Tweedle-Dum and Tweedle-Dee.

[Scott Lloyd]

My hat's off to Lou!!! My heart warms to the thought that Lou's a Communist. Right. I interviewed two others over that and considered a paper but probably am too close to the story.

I've known about the spy scandal for years but it was only recently I learned that Lou was a target, along with other professors who were highly respected in later years, including one who became a General Authority.

I think Wilkinson was darned lucky not to be dismissed for his antics.

[Calm]

"An odd suggestion, seeing as how Lou is considered to be what you call a "conservative," "

Perhaps what Bob said was tongue-in-cheek.

Wilkinson's spy games were justified by him because of his worry about Communists, I vaguely recall.

Added:

"In 1966 political controversy reached the quiet campus of Brigham Young University. Ernest Wilkinson, then president, was a conservative Republican and ardent anti-communist. To Wilkinson, anything that did not support the U.S. Constitution or free-market capitalism was communistic and ran counter to the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. When members of the faculty supported or appeared sympathetic to ideas that challenged Wilkinson's ideology, he condemned them as 'liberals." These "liberal" professors were the focus of Wilkinson's attention in 1966 and the motivation for the administration- organized, student-run spy ring."

https://dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V28N01_175.pdf

Edited September 11, 2015 by Calm

[jkwilliams]

"An odd suggestion, seeing as how Lou is considered to be what you call a "conservative," "

Perhaps what Bob said was tongue-in-cheek.

Wilkinson's spy games were justified by him because of his worry about Communists, I vaguely recall.

He was also concerned about "liberal" Mormons teaching things that he considered to be in conflict with church doctrine.

[cinepro]

I've known about the spy scandal for years but it was only recently I learned that Lou was a target, along with other professors who were highly respected in later years, including one who became a General Authority.

I think Wilkinson was darned lucky not to be dismissed for his antics.

 

 

Ah yes, silly Ernie and his antics.  Always the life of a party.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I am well aware of the politics of a secular universities but had hoped that at a church owned and operated university those who staffed it would have a tad bit more integrity.

I think we are mistaken when we try to divide things so neatly into categories like "secular universities" and non. Spiritual things can happen at "secular universities" and "secular" things go on at more spiritually inclined universities. I like what Pres. Uchtdorf had to say:

 

"To be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine. I suppose the Church would be perfect only if it were run by perfect beings. God is perfect, and His doctrine is pure. But He works through us—His imperfect children—and imperfect people make mistakes."

 

We could all become more comfortable with the idea that we're imperfect. Leaders are imperfect, professors are imperfect, administrators are imperfect. Things continue to roll on in the meantime. Have you had the chance to read anything the Institute has produced over the past three years? I would like to know what you did or didn't like about it.  

[Scott Lloyd]

He was also concerned about "liberal" Mormons teaching things that he considered to be in conflict with church doctrine.

Hmm. I think it was mainly the political stuff. It was the height of the Cold War. He had just lost a campaign for election to U.S. Senate in which he did a lot of mudslinging. He was a very contentious individual. I remember the campaign well. Even though I was still in grade school, his campaign put me off, and I was glad when he lost.

[ERayR]

I think we are mistaken when we try to divide things so neatly into categories like "secular universities" and non. Spiritual things can happen at "secular universities" and "secular" things go on at more spiritually inclined universities. I like what Pres. Uchtdorf had to say:

 

 

We could all become more comfortable with the idea that we're imperfect. Leaders are imperfect, professors are imperfect, administrators are imperfect. Things continue to roll on in the meantime. Have you had the chance to read anything the Institute has produced over the past three years? I would like to know what you did or didn't like about it.  

 

Point taken.  Just don't think I will be taking any management pointers from Bradford.

[Teancum]

Hmm. I think it was mainly the political stuff. It was the height of the Cold War. He had just lost a campaign for election to U.S. Senate in which he did a lot of mudslinging. He was a very contentious individual. I remember the campaign well. Even though I was still in grade school, his campaign put me off, and I was glad when he lost.

He targeted and was successful in playing a role in pushing Lowell Benion out of the church institute program.

[Guest]

Take heart, Pa Pa. I think we're getting somewhere this time.

I hope so, but "getting somewhere", does not always mean the correct destination To use a line from the movie, "Lincoln"..."A compass will always show you true North, but will tell you nothing about the hazards you may encounter, and can plunge you needlessly through swamps, quicksand and the like" (to paraphrase). So I hope once we arrive at out destination with the "Keystone of our Religion", it is the one we hope for...or that it does not take so long others pick up pace, to lead apologetics onto an off ramp into a Jr College form of the Maxwell Institute.

[Robert F. Smith]

Hmm. I think it was mainly the political stuff. It was the height of the Cold War. He had just lost a campaign for election to U.S. Senate in which he did a lot of mudslinging. He was a very contentious individual. I remember the campaign well. Even though I was still in grade school, his campaign put me off, and I was glad when he lost.

Ernie the Attorney was brilliant in the courtroom.  He was also a force majeur in building up BYU, and the Brethren gave him all the money he asked for to do it.  But, oh what a tangled web he could weave when first he practiced to deceive -- he went up against my professors, some of whom were veterans of U. S. Army Intelligence and the CIA.  They made short work of him.  Ernie was a bit of a totalitarian, a short guy with a Napoleon-complex, and a penchant for McCarthyite tactics (without the booze).

 

Some years later, a couple of BYU students purloined Ernie's diaries from BYU Archives -- which was crucial to their book about BYU.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I hope so, but "getting somewhere", does not always mean the correct destination To use a line from the movie, "Lincoln"..."A compass will always show you true North, but will tell you nothing about the hazards you may encounter, and can plunge you needlessly through swamps, quicksand and the like" (to paraphrase). So I hope once we arrive at out destination with the "Keystone of our Religion", it is the one we hope for...or that it does not take so long others pick up pace, to lead apologetics onto an off ramp into a Jr College form of the Maxwell Institute.

What have you read that the Institute has produced in the past three years?

[Bernard Gui]

Please explain the manner in which the changes were made.

 

Bernard--Was that directed to me? Not sure I follow.

Duncan--first you must say how terrible the Institute is!

Yes, I would like to hear your explanation. The event as I understand it is troubling to me. If this kind of politicking goes on at BYU and in the upper realms of apologetics and Mormon studies, then I am extremely disappointed.

[Duncan]

So, I have the book written by Sam Brown, First Principles and thus far I honestly feel like Thomas B. Marsh when he first read the Book of of Mormon, he became converted after reading only 16 pages-because that how many pages i've read so far and I am converted. I like how it's talking about relationships and the first principles and ordinances, more so than a contract concept. I have made covenants with Christ who is an actual being not some fishy wishy gaseous entity. So, I am loving it! and he even mentions depression and the Holy Ghost which is a subject I am interested. So, I am hooked!

[LifeOnaPlate]

Bernard, I can understand why it is troubling to you. Many fans of Dan were troubled and some still are. I can also understand why the university expected the Institute to decline public comment on the circumstances. I think it's obvious to most reasonable people that in such a divided situation, both parties could reasonably believe different things about why it happened. Both sides will be likely to depict things as favorably as possible to their own side. I suppose I can say that, although the exact timing and circumstances don't seem ideal, the decision wasn't made lightly and the university fully supports the Maxwell Institute. As Dr. Bradford retires in the next little while I hope people will learn to overlook perceived problems and pay attention instead to what the Institute is actually producing now. The past two years have been the most productive of the Institute's history in several categories. There's a lot of very good things people can benefit from if they're willing to try.

[LifeOnaPlate]

It's been more than three years. Dan has been productive. The Institute has been productive. I see more people simply moving on from the identity politics and enjoying the work that's being done. That makes me even more optimistic. Is there anything you've read from the Institute in the last few years that you did or didn't like?

Edited September 13, 2015 by LifeOnaPlate

[The Nehor]

It's been more than three years. Dan has been productive. The Institute has been productive. I see more people simply moving on from the identity politics and enjoying the work that's being done. That makes me even more optimistic.

Yes but where does this supposedly happy situation leave people like me who want the Maxwell Institute to get hit by a tornado, burn down, fall over, and sink into a swamp and then have a tribe of friendly beavers come by and salt the ground to keep anything from ever being built there again?

Am I just to be left out in the cold? Is that fair?

[LifeOnaPlate]

Yes but where does this supposedly happy situation leave people like me who want the Maxwell Institute to get hit by a tornado, burn down, fall over, and sink into a swamp and then have a tribe of friendly beavers come by and salt the ground to keep anything from ever being built there again?

Am I just to be left out in the cold? Is that fair?

A bizarrely specific set of wishful circumstances no doubt. But. Sometimes life isn't fair. Edited September 13, 2015 by LifeOnaPlate

[The Nehor]

A bizarrely specific set of wishful circumstances no doubt. But. Sometimes life isn't fair.

Do you want to see my diagrams?

[LifeOnaPlate]

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