"mormon Gnosticism": The Belief That The Church Has Lost Its Way

[Coreyb]

I'm trying to think of some examples of this "phenomenon." The only one I can think of is Denver Snuffer. Most people I know who have left the church have done so because they have concluded that the church is not "true" in the sense that it claims. I don't know very many people at all who have left out of some sense of "gnosticism," that they can get spiritual knowledge outside of the institutional church. To belong to the LDS church in any meaningful way is to acknowledge the primacy of priesthood authority. 

 

Help me out here. I am not seeing much of what she's warning against.

This "movement" is larger than you realize I think. Some important names would be Denver Snuffer, Rock Waterman, Tim Malone, Daymon Smith, and Brett Bartel, as well as the blogs Anonymous Bishop and To The Remnant. I have met more Mormons IRL that lean this way than lean towards the Mormon Stories crowd.

[Okrahomer]

I agree but maybe I just haven't been exposed to any of this (?).  Denver Snuffer is the only name that came to mind as I read through her comments and I'm not really all that familiar with him.  I also think there was a group in Southern Utah years ago that broke away (and was even using the Manti temple at times IIRC, but I'd need to look this up again.)

 

Maybe this is a problem in the church now and I'm just not aware of it.

 

Perhaps you are thinking of the Harmston Group ("True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days").

[Calm]

Thanks goodness she acknowledged her loose use of the term Gnostic, I almost cringed when I read the title.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I find that most of the Mormon "gnostics" (I still don't really like that term)....

I was thinking perhaps "spiritualists" would be a more accurate term (I see it as somewhat similar to the fads of the late 1800s and early 1900s---seances becoming a popular pasttime, various spiritualist societies investigating life after death, evidence for the soul) but it would likely be confusing. What do you think?

[Kenngo1969]

The tent folks are still a thing in my neck of the woods.  I have friends in a different ward here in Utah who's family is completely enamored of that movement.

Cool!  Won't cost 'em hardly nuthin' to live in tents.  Will you please ask them if, when they move, I can have their house (I'll take good care of it; I promise!)?

[bdouglas]

deleted

Edited August 12, 2015 by bdouglas

[ttribe]

There are three books that I am aware that promote NDE as messages from God and relay detailed predictions of the future. They have all been the top selling LDS market book at one time or the other. Once i checked on amazon and the three were in the top four Mormon sellers, fourth one was an antimormon book iirc.

In my personal experience, it is this concern I get talked to the most about right now when it comes to apologetics by other members offline.

 

I believe one of the people you are referring to is Julie Rowe and, yes, her movement is something to be concerned about.  She's aligned herself with the hard-core Mormon Preppers (to the point she's endorsing products) and there seems to be a fair amount of current chatter about some prognostication she has made, or is going to make, regarding the end of the world.  To say she has gone off the reservation, would be a mild understatement.

[JLHPROF]

Gnostic Mormon?  Guilty as charged I guess.

[toon]

I forgot about Waterman, but I've never heard of Visions of Glory. Are the tent folks still a thing? Wow, I guess my memory is going bad because I didn't remember them.

 

The tent folks are still a thing. 

[toon]

There are three books that I am aware that promote NDE as messages from God and relay detailed predictions of the future. They have all been the top selling LDS market book at one time or the other. Once i checked on amazon and the three were in the top four Mormon sellers, fourth one was an antimormon book iirc.

In my personal experience, it is this concern I get talked to the most about right now when it comes to apologetics by other members offline.

 

Any of those books by Julie Rowe.  If I understand it correctly, she's a tent folk.

[Guest]

This presentation by Cassandra Hedelius at the FairMormon Conference, now up as a verbatim transcript on the website, is superb. The message is very important.

 

The phenomenon is indicative of pernicious and creeping apostasy among those who, in the beginning, may not even recognize it in themselves.

I think the Church is finding it's way...

It's way out of Polygamy

It's way out of withholding the Prieshood form members of other races

It's way in not giving in to issues of the day that seek to undermine it.

It's way is trying not to sanitize everything and willing to share our history before anti-Mormon groups seek to use it to destroy.

It is finding a way like all great faiths to deal with the growing pains that are inherent in all organizations.

Our critics have been trying to spell out our doom from the beginning, each time the right leaders come forth to map out a future that will continue to attract those whom God has chosen and overcome those who fail to keep the faith that threaten to destroy from within.

The phenomenon...we will remain, and we will continue to sustain until Christ comes again for his Church. Question is for all of us; will we still be a part?

[jkwilliams]

I'm getting the impression that you think that if you're not conscious of something, it's either because you forgot it or it never existed in the first place.

 

I regard myself as fairly well acquainted with Mormon culture, but Visions of Glory already had fairly wide circulation before I heard a single word about it.

 

I learned about Snuffer and Waterman from chatter on this board.

 

I didn't even know about Meldrum and the Heartlander movement until I saw the rebuttal to it on the FAIR website. (Not saying that is Mormon Gnosticism, just giving that as an example of something that had been making waves for quite a while before it came to my attention.)

 

The impression I get from Hedelius's talk is that Mormon Gnosticism seems to fly under the radar for quite a while before it surfaces.

 

My point being that you may not be as in-the-know as you think you are.

 

I believe I just said that.

[The Nehor]

The phenomenon...we will remain, and we will continue to sustain until Christ comes again for his Church. Question is for all of us; will we still be a part?

 

No idea.

[Calm]

Any of those books by Julie Rowe. If I understand it correctly, she's a tent folk.

Two of them. Having read her website, I don't understand the appeal.

Edited August 12, 2015 by calmoriah

[Calm]

I believe one of the people you are referring to is Julie Rowe and, yes, her movement is something to be concerned about.  She's aligned herself with the hard-core Mormon Preppers (to the point she's endorsing products) and there seems to be a fair amount of current chatter about some prognostication she has made, or is going to make, regarding the end of the world.  To say she has gone off the reservation, would be a mild understatement.

I haven't gone into the message boards much, just read her website. The thing that bothers me most is her claim that God revealed to her that a particular form of energy work is his gift to mankind and then she links to a site that sells training in it for around $1000 or more, with an emphasis on marketing. And she practices it herself and I haven't heard anything about her doing such for free. That to me is priestcraft. I am not completely against energy healing, I see it as possible that some might be faith based or hook into mind-body connections for effective placebo (if it is talking the body into healing itself, it is still healing)...would need to see empirical evidence to endorse as a medical treatment. To sell something claimed to be a revelation from God for one's career..that I have a problem with.

[Guest]

No idea.

Me either, what I said, what I mean. Should never type while watching TV. I also don't know if I will still be a part of the Church when Christ comes...but that is my goal.

[Boanerges]

If followers of Julie Rowe and the NDE crowd fall into this category I stand corrected and admit that gnostic Mormonism exists here. For what it's worth I only know of one of Rowe's adherents in a neighboring ward and we all think she's a nutcase anyway.

[jkwilliams]

It's interesting that this subset of Mormons seems to believe the church isn't Mormon enough. From what I've read since yesterday, these folks look back to the early church as a church of spiritual manifestations and angelic visits, and they wonder why that's not happening today in the same way. I always thought those people were a little off, but it's an interesting phenomenon. 

[HappyJackWagon]

If followers of Julie Rowe and the NDE crowd fall into this category I stand corrected and admit that gnostic Mormonism exists here. For what it's worth I only know of one of Rowe's adherents in a neighboring ward and we all think she's a nutcase anyway.

I'm consistently amazed at how these extra-orthodox types are considered TBM and in the mainstream in my area. They are fast to look down on someone who believes the church has been wrong on important issues like race, gay marriage etc, yet follow Julie Rowe as a pseudo-prophetess. But don't worry too much about these people. In my experience they're all political conservatives.

Edited August 12, 2015 by HappyJackWagon

[Scott Lloyd]

It's interesting that this subset of Mormons seems to believe the church isn't Mormon enough. From what I've read since yesterday, these folks look back to the early church as a church of spiritual manifestations and angelic visits, and they wonder why that's not happening today in the same way. I always thought those people were a little off, but it's an interesting phenomenon. 

I daresay virtually every schismatic breakoff group from the Church of Jesus Christ was formed on the premise that the Church had departed from the original teachings as promulgated by Joseph Smith. The "phenomeon" is not so new or unique.

[Scott Lloyd]

I'm consistently amazed at how these extra-orthodox types are considered TBM and in the mainstream in my area. They are fast to look down on someone who believes the church has been wrong on important issues like race, gay marriage etc, yet follow Julie Rowe as a pseudo-prophetess. But don't worry too much about these people. In my experience they're all political conservatives.

They each have precious souls worth saving.

 

If someone were to so blithely write off Kate Kelly or John Dehlin here on this board, I daresay he would draw severe criticism.

[jkwilliams]

I daresay virtually every schismatic breakoff group from the Church of Jesus Christ was formed on the premise that the Church had departed from the original teachings as promulgated by Joseph Smith. The "phenomeon" is not so new or unique.

 

No, it's not new. As I said, I just wasn't familiar with these newer movements. Maybe it's that I have lived outside of Utah for most of my life. I don't know. Kind of reminds me of Elder McConkie's talk about the caravan, where he warns against people trying to get ahead of the caravan instead of staying with it. 

[Scott Lloyd]

No, it's not new. As I said, I just wasn't familiar with these newer movements. Maybe it's that I have lived outside of Utah for most of my life. I don't know. Kind of reminds me of Elder McConkie's talk about the caravan, where he warns against people trying to get ahead of the caravan instead of staying with it. 

This is a good application of that analogy, in fact.

[Bernard Gui]

I'm thinking of Snuffer and Waterman. And the book Visions of Glory.

A while ago I heard someone say they had heard that there will come a time when the faithful will be required to flee into the mountains and set up tent villages to escape the wickedness below. My response was, "When was the last time you heard one of the Brethren in general conference speak of something like this?"

A close friend recently lost his daughter and son-in-law (who followed the man's former bishop)

to apostacy in an extreme survivalist group

Edited August 12, 2015 by Bernard Gui

[Gray]

The tragic thing about the Julie Rowe phenomenon is that people are investing their life savings and 401ks on survival gear. Ironically they will be the least prepared for what's actually coming (retirement). 

Edited August 12, 2015 by Gray

[jkwilliams]

The tragic thing about the Julie Row phenomenon is that people are investing their life savings and 401ks on survival gear. Ironically they will be the least prepared for what's actually coming (retirement). 

 

Yep, there's usually some element of power, sex, or money involved in these things.