"mormon Gnosticism": The Belief That The Church Has Lost Its Way

[Scott Lloyd]

This presentation by Cassandra Hedelius at the FairMormon Conference, now up as a verbatim transcript on the website, is superb. The message is very important.

 

The phenomenon is indicative of pernicious and creeping apostasy among those who, in the beginning, may not even recognize it in themselves.

 

 

 

[jkwilliams]

I'm trying to think of some examples of this "phenomenon." The only one I can think of is Denver Snuffer. Most people I know who have left the church have done so because they have concluded that the church is not "true" in the sense that it claims. I don't know very many people at all who have left out of some sense of "gnosticism," that they can get spiritual knowledge outside of the institutional church. To belong to the LDS church in any meaningful way is to acknowledge the primacy of priesthood authority. 

 

Help me out here. I am not seeing much of what she's warning against. 

[ALarson]

I'm trying to think of some examples of this "phenomenon." The only one I can think of is Denver Snuffer. Most people I know who have left the church have done so because they have concluded that the church is not "true" in the sense that it claims. I don't know very many people at all who have left out of some sense of "gnosticism," that they can get spiritual knowledge outside of the institutional church. To belong to the LDS church in any meaningful way is to acknowledge the primacy of priesthood authority. 

 

Help me out here. I am not seeing much of what she's warning against. 

I agree but maybe I just haven't been exposed to any of this (?).  Denver Snuffer is the only name that came to mind as I read through her comments and I'm not really all that familiar with him.  I also think there was a group in Southern Utah years ago that broke away (and was even using the Manti temple at times IIRC, but I'd need to look this up again.)

 

Maybe this is a problem in the church now and I'm just not aware of it.

Edited August 11, 2015 by ALarson

[jkwilliams]

I agree but maybe I just haven't been exposed to any of this (?).  Denver Snuffer is the only name that came to mind as I read through her comments and I'm not really all that familiar with him.  I also think there was a group in Southern Utah years ago that broke away (and was even using the Manti temple at times IIRC, but I'd need to look this up again.)

 

Maybe this is a problem in the church now and I'm just not aware of it.

 

Maybe so. I go to church often enough to think I am fairly current on what is going on, but I haven't seen anything like this. It would be nice to know what she has in mind.

[TheSkepticChristian]

Help me out here. I am not seeing much of what she's warning against. 

 

as an active and optimistic LDS, I sometimes do feel our modern church leaders should have other priorities.

I bet the next General Conference will include SSM and the Boy Scouts 

 

Have you seen the Meet the Mormons movie? I was kind of disappointed that it didn't include a family that is currently poor.

Perhaps the grandfather of the 4th family is poor, but he is not LDS. 

 

I would have love to see 

 

Meet Jason the Walmart associate 

Meet Sarah the McDonalds employee 

Meet Dunga the active LDS of a poor community in Africa 

Meet Jose, the Garbage collector. 

 

but I hope the second Meet the Mormons movie includes some normal and poor LDS. 

Edited August 11, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[Scott Lloyd]

I'm trying to think of some examples of this "phenomenon." The only one I can think of is Denver Snuffer. Most people I know who have left the church have done so because they have concluded that the church is not "true" in the sense that it claims. I don't know very many people at all who have left out of some sense of "gnosticism," that they can get spiritual knowledge outside of the institutional church. To belong to the LDS church in any meaningful way is to acknowledge the primacy of priesthood authority. 

 

Help me out here. I am not seeing much of what she's warning against. 

 

 

I agree but maybe I just haven't been exposed to any of this (?).  Denver Snuffer is the only name that came to mind as I read through her comments and I'm not really all that familiar with him.  I also think there was a group in Southern Utah years ago that broke away (and was even using the Manti temple at times IIRC, but I'd need to look this up again.)

 

Maybe this is a problem in the church now and I'm just not aware of it.

I'm amazed by these remarks, but rather than get into a back-and-forth about whether it applies to this individual or that, I'll just say there have been some high-profile excommunications and at least one rather popular book that came to mind as I heard this address to which it has obvious application. In addition to that, I have heard of some strange notions going through the grapevine that clearly fit some of the hallmarks that Hedelius listed here.

 

I mentioned this address to a colleague of mine who is a bishop, and he mentioned some awfully wacky things he had encountered in the course of his ministry.

[Scott Lloyd]

as an active and optimistic LDS, I sometimes do feel our modern church leaders should have other priorities.

I bet the next General Conference will include SSM and the Boy Scouts 

 

Have you seen the Meet the Mormons movie? I was kind of disappointed that it didn't include a family that is currently poor.

Perhaps the grandfather of the 4th family is poor, but he is not LDS. 

 

I would have love to see 

 

Meet Jason the Walmart associate 

Meet Sarah the McDonalds employee 

Meet Dunga the active LDS of a poor community in Africa 

Meet Jose, the Garbage collector. 

 

but I hope the second Meet the Mormons movie includes some normal and poor LDS. 

This post is off topic.

[jkwilliams]

I'm amazed by these remarks, but rather than get into a back-and-forth about whether it applies to this individual or that, I'll just say there have been some high-profile excommunications and at least one rather popular book that came to mind as I heard this address to which it has obvious application. In addition to that, I have heard of some strange notions going through the grapevine that clearly fit some of the hallmarks that Hedelius listed here.

 

I mentioned this address to a colleague of mine who is a bishop, and he mentioned some awfully wacky things he had encountered in the course of his ministry.

 

Don't leave us in suspense. Which high-profile excommunications are you thinking of? And which popular book? Other than the Apocalrock, I'm still drawing a blank except for Snuffer.

[Tsuzuki]

Oh no. Someone's having independent thoughts. I like this article, though. It details everything I admire.

[Boanerges]

It is an interesting read. Perhaps the things she is referring to are more common within the Corridor? I do believe it exists, but way out here in the field I don't think I'm seeing what she's referring to. I can come with examples like Snuffer or Waterman, but not any within a couple thousand miles of here.

[TheSkepticChristian]

This post is off topic.

 

How is it off topic?

[ttribe]

This post is off topic.

 

You a mod, now?

[HappyJackWagon]

I'm trying to think of some examples of this "phenomenon." The only one I can think of is Denver Snuffer. Most people I know who have left the church have done so because they have concluded that the church is not "true" in the sense that it claims. I don't know very many people at all who have left out of some sense of "gnosticism," that they can get spiritual knowledge outside of the institutional church. To belong to the LDS church in any meaningful way is to acknowledge the primacy of priesthood authority. 

 

Help me out here. I am not seeing much of what she's warning against. 

At the very least wouldn't this apply to all fundamentalist groups who feel they are carrying on the true gospel via polygamy?

 

I've also seen members get very caught up in the NDE books and even LDS emotion code/ chakra Reiki etc. These all seem to be examples of members seeking the hidden knowledge

[Tsuzuki]

At the very least wouldn't this apply to all fundamentalist groups who feel they are carrying on the true gospel via polygamy?

 

I've also seen members get very caught up in the NDE books and even LDS emotion code/ chakra Reiki etc. These all seem to be examples of members seeking the hidden knowledge

And then there's me.

[bluebell]

You a mod, now?

Thread originators have the ability to set the topic and request people stay on it.

If a poster continues to try to hijack the thread against the wishes of the OP the OP can report it to a mod to have the poster reprimanded or removed from the thread.

[Scott Lloyd]

You a mod, now?

I understand I am entitled to moderate my own threads -- which I will not hesitate to do.

 

By the way, your post is off-topic as well.

Edited August 11, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

Thread originators have the ability to set the topic and request people stay on it.

If a poster continues to try to hijack the thread against the wishes of the OP the OP can report it to a mod to have the poster reprimanded or removed from the thread.

Or temporarily close the thread, which I've realized recently can be a somewhat effective tool of moderation.

[ttribe]

Thread originators have the ability to set the topic and request people stay on it.

If a poster continues to try to hijack the thread against the wishes of the OP the OP can report it to a mod to have the poster reprimanded or removed from the thread.

 

 

I understand I am entitled to moderate my own threads -- which I will not hesitate to do.

 

By the way, your post is off-topic as well.

Yep, forgot Scott started the thread. Sorry about that.

[Scott Lloyd]

Don't leave us in suspense. Which high-profile excommunications are you thinking of? And which popular book? Other than the Apocalrock, I'm still drawing a blank except for Snuffer.

I'm thinking of Snuffer and Waterman. And the book Visions of Glory.

 

A while ago I heard someone say they had heard that there will come a time when the faithful will be required to flee into the mountains and set up tent villages to escape the wickedness below. My response was, "When was the last time you heard one of the Brethren in general conference speak of something like this?"

Edited August 11, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[DragonLancer]

I'm trying to think of some examples of this "phenomenon." The only one I can think of is Denver Snuffer. Most people I know who have left the church have done so because they have concluded that the church is not "true" in the sense that it claims. I don't know very many people at all who have left out of some sense of "gnosticism," that they can get spiritual knowledge outside of the institutional church. To belong to the LDS church in any meaningful way is to acknowledge the primacy of priesthood authority. 

 

Help me out here. I am not seeing much of what she's warning against. 

 

Denver Snuffer is only a symptom of a much larger movement of people.  They are not his followers, as they themselves will tell you.  They are all independent thinkers, and only share in his basic ideology.  Many of them consider him a messenger of sorts on an errand from God.  But some don't, yet still they share his ideology.

[jkwilliams]

I'm thinking of Snuffer and Waterman. And the book Visions of Glory.

 

A while ago I heard someone say they had heard that there will come a time when the faithful will be required to flee into the mountains and set up tent villages to escape the wickedness below. My response was, "When was the last time you heard one of the Brethren in general conference speak of something like this?"

 

I forgot about Waterman, but I've never heard of Visions of Glory. Are the tent folks still a thing? Wow, I guess my memory is going bad because I didn't remember them.

[Scott Lloyd]

I forgot about Waterman, but I've never heard of Visions of Glory. Are the tent folks still a thing? Wow, I guess my memory is going bad because I didn't remember them.

I'm getting the impression that you think that if you're not conscious of something, it's either because you forgot it or it never existed in the first place.

 

I regard myself as fairly well acquainted with Mormon culture, but Visions of Glory already had fairly wide circulation before I heard a single word about it.

 

I learned about Snuffer and Waterman from chatter on this board.

 

I didn't even know about Meldrum and the Heartlander movement until I saw the rebuttal to it on the FAIR website. (Not saying that is Mormon Gnosticism, just giving that as an example of something that had been making waves for quite a while before it came to my attention.)

 

The impression I get from Hedelius's talk is that Mormon Gnosticism seems to fly under the radar for quite a while before it surfaces.

 

My point being that you may not be as in-the-know as you think you are.

Edited August 11, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[bluebell]

I forgot about Waterman, but I've never heard of Visions of Glory. Are the tent folks still a thing? Wow, I guess my memory is going bad because I didn't remember them.

 

The tent folks are still a thing in my neck of the woods.  I have friends in a different ward here in Utah who's family is completely enamored of that movement.

[Calm]

There are three books that I am aware that promote NDE as messages from God and relay detailed predictions of the future. They have all been the top selling LDS market book at one time or the other. Once i checked on amazon and the three were in the top four Mormon sellers, fourth one was an antimormon book iirc.

In my personal experience, it is this concern I get talked to the most about right now when it comes to apologetics by other members offline.

[halconero]

Thanks goodness she acknowledged her loose use of the term Gnostic, I almost cringed when I read the title.

 

With regards to the topic, I don't mind members searching for, desiring, and receiving powerfully uplifting experiences, miracles, and even the 2nd Comforter. The question I often ask myself is, how well are they doing on their home teaching? Their calling as the ward computer specialist? In paying their fast offering? In doing non-church organized volunteer work?

 

I'm not questioning anyone's worthiness, but in my own personal experience people who are so fixated on the attainment of esoteric experiences are usually lazy in the areas that matter. Yeah, they read the scriptures a lot, and they even pray. They draw near to the Lord with their lips, and even desires, but the simple actions that make a disciple of Christ (where the heart truly is) are far from them. I have only ever met one man who strove for those experiences, and did everything in his power to obtain them through active covenant keeping, simple missionary work, and Christ-like service. Guess what, he had some things to share in those private, sacred, quiet moments.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I find that most of the Mormon "gnostics" (I still don't really like that term) are charismatically active, enthusiastic at bearing testimony and praying, and are intellectual smart. Other than that they're generally lazy and lukewarm in deed.

 

Disclaimer: 

 

I'm not perfect with my living the Gospel by any means, and sometimes substitute my love of scripture study and prayer for actively doing good in the world. I'm a sinner whose in need of some repenting with regards to that.

Edited August 11, 2015 by halconero