"mormon Gnosticism": The Belief That The Church Has Lost Its Way

[stemelbow]

Well don't go to Julie's website to catch yourself up on all the excitement. You'll leave scratching your head, wondering, "what the hell was that?" At least that's what happened to me recently.

[jkwilliams]

Well don't go to Julie's website to catch yourself up on all the excitement. You'll leave scratching your head, wondering, "what the hell was that?" At least that's what happened to me recently.

 

That's pretty much my response. I've never understood the appeal of that kind of stuff. Years ago when we lived in Orem, 4 of our neighbor families were big into the New World Order, food storage, weapons stockpiling, and the imminence of the Second Coming. I had to fight to keep them from turning our Boy Scout troop into a John Birch Society recruiting station. It was just nuts. 

[HappyJackWagon]

They each have precious souls worth saving.

 

If someone were to so blithely write off Kate Kelly or John Dehlin here on this board, I daresay he would draw severe criticism.

I agree. All souls are worth saving. I never said otherwise. How did I write them off?

 

I'm merely pointing out that in my experience it seems conservative unorthodoxy is more readily accepted that liberal unorthodoxy.

 

I find it funny how you don't address me directly. I'm right here. Is this the "I'm not talking to you game?"

[The Nehor]

I am always worried about someone who would rather pick off enemies with a rifle from their bunker hoarding food rather then feed the hungry.

Edited August 12, 2015 by The Nehor

[The Nehor]

It's interesting that this subset of Mormons seems to believe the church isn't Mormon enough. From what I've read since yesterday, these folks look back to the early church as a church of spiritual manifestations and angelic visits, and they wonder why that's not happening today in the same way. I always thought those people were a little off, but it's an interesting phenomenon.

It is happening. Just not to them. There is probably a reason for that.

[Calm]

.

I find it funny how you don't address me directly. I'm right here. Is this the "I'm not talking to you game?"

I don't know how you are reading it, but he posted your comment and then responded to the part you tell people not to worry too much*** about these people who are wandering on dangerous paths because they are "all political conservatives".

Telling someone not to worry about someone who is possibly going into or already in apostasy comes across as "writing them off" to me, telling us their spiritual state isn't important enough to waste concern for. Why else do you tell us we do not have to worry too much about them?

If you were being sarcastic in your apparent dismissal, please explain why you felt the need. Is there anyone here expressing the opinion they aren't worth being bothered about?

And then he made a comment that applied to the whole board, not just you, so he used third person. How was that not addressing you directly?

***" But don't worry too much about these people. In my experience they're all political conservatives."

Edited August 12, 2015 by calmoriah

[Scott Lloyd]

I don't know how you are reading it, but he posted your comment and then responded to the part you tell people not to worry too much about these people who are wandeting on dangerous paths. And then he made a comment that applied to the whole board, not just you, so he used third person. How was that not addressing you directly?

Thanks.

 

HJW's remark left me scratching my head as well, but I was kind of at a loss as to how to respond to it.

[Scott Lloyd]

Lest this thread proceed too far down a tangent about survivalists and John Birchers and crazy right-wing fanatics and such, I as thread originator will remind everyone of the topic, which is people who take it upon themselves to say that the Church has lost its way. This might include some survivalists, of course, but I think it would include hobbyists of other stripes and persuasions as well, including those who swear that their own particular interpretation of scripture trumps that of those who are anointed to lead the Church.

 

If you haven't done so yet, now would be a good time to read the transcript of Cassandra Hedelius's FairMormon address, which I linked to in the OP -- or to re-read it if you have already done so.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[ERMD]

I am always worried about someone who would rather pick off enemies with a rifle from their bunker hoarding food rather then feed the hungry.

I do both (although I don't hoard anything; OK, maybe ammunition). If they are willing to accept what is given to them, I'll do all I can. If they try to take by force, they will never see it coming.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I believe the church has, in some aspects, lost it's way- and it all started on June 27th, 1844. When those who "knew best what to do" took the Saints to the four winds.

But I trust the promises of Zion, and that the pure in heart that are now still scattered will be restored to fellowship, and will will begin the real work of the Restoration- which has always been and always will be about building Zion...

[The Nehor]

I do both (although I don't hoard anything; OK, maybe ammunition). If they are willing to accept what is given to them, I'll do all I can. If they try to take by force, they will never see it coming.

image.jpg

Either that or you won't see it coming.

[Scott Lloyd]

OK, I'm locking this thread for the time being to see whether the tangent will dissolve.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

This thread is now reopened for business.

 

Please post your relevant comments here rather than the newly opened one so things don't get too unwieldy or confusing.

[SmileyMcGee]

Thanks goodness she acknowledged her loose use of the term Gnostic, I almost cringed when I read the title.

With regards to the topic, I don't mind members searching for, desiring, and receiving powerfully uplifting experiences, miracles, and even the 2nd Comforter. The question I often ask myself is, how well are they doing on their home teaching? Their calling as the ward computer specialist? In paying their fast offering? In doing non-church organized volunteer work?

I'm not questioning anyone's worthiness, but in my own personal experience people who are so fixated on the attainment of esoteric experiences are usually lazy in the areas that matter. Yeah, they read the scriptures a lot, and they even pray. They draw near to the Lord with their lips, and even desires, but the simple actions that make a disciple of Christ (where the heart truly is) are far from them. I have only ever met one man who strove for those experiences, and did everything in his power to obtain them through active covenant keeping, simple missionary work, and Christ-like service. Guess what, he had some things to share in those private, sacred, quiet moments.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I find that most of the Mormon "gnostics" (I still don't really like that term) are charismatically active, enthusiastic at bearing testimony and praying, and are intellectual smart. Other than that they're generally lazy and lukewarm in deed.

Disclaimer:

I'm not perfect with my living the Gospel by any means, and sometimes substitute my love of scripture study and prayer for actively doing good in the world. I'm a sinner whose in need of some repenting with regards to that.

Perhaps your comment brings up a good point: maybe people are just bored with the church. This is all highly subjective of course but I can think of few things more boring than being a ward computer specialist (or whatever useless calling you can think of) or a home teacher. Some people get involved in religion to satisfy spiritual needs, and those needs often include a need to learn and be challenged. They love studying the scriptures, church history, and pondering principles. But when they are tasked with boring assignments and listening to mind numbing correlated lessons, they find their needs unfulfilled. the church becomes increasingly irrelevant in their lives -- but they retain that feeling of intellectual and spiritual challenge that the gospel and church history can provide. I could see this being the case for people like snuffer and waterman.

[Scott Lloyd]

Perhaps your comment brings up a good point: maybe people are just bored with the church. This is all highly subjective of course but I can think of few things more boring than being a ward computer specialist (or whatever useless calling you can think of) or a home teacher. Some people get involved in religion to satisfy spiritual needs, and those needs often include a need to learn and be challenged. They love studying the scriptures, church history, and pondering principles. But when they are tasked with boring assignments and listening to mind numbing correlated lessons, they find their needs unfulfilled. the church becomes increasingly irrelevant in their lives -- but they retain that feeling of intellectual and spiritual challenge that the gospel and church history can provide. I could see this being the case for people like snuffer and waterman.

I think Hedelius addressed this somewhat in her conclusion:

 

If someone you love or serve has fallen into Gnosticism, I would try to salvage anything of their faith that you can. For instance, if you can help them recognize the feeling of spiritual darkness that comes from reading accusations against church leaders, that’s progress. If you can help them see the value in disengaging from internet forums in favor of serving those around them, that’s fantastic. If you can help leaders and teachers in your ward be well-prepared and engaging in leading meaningful discussions on basic (but important!) gospel topics, that might be really helpful.

 

[CV75]

This presentation by Cassandra Hedelius at the FairMormon Conference, now up as a verbatim transcript on the website, is superb. The message is very important.

 

The phenomenon is indicative of pernicious and creeping apostasy among those who, in the beginning, may not even recognize it in themselves.

Just as the love of money is the root of all evil, so is the “lust-disguised-as-love” of knowledge, whether the object is esoteric (as described in the article) or secular (as exploited in the threads about the seer stone, for example!).

[readstoomuch]

A couple in my ward were expressing some doubts about Church History and had asked my wife and I talk to to them about the issues.  They seemed to be doing ok as far as we could tell.  About a year later Joseph Smith`s polygamy isn't an issue any more, but the Church has wandered from Joseph`s teaching and people have to go out into the wilderness like Lehi had.  We don`t talk about Christ enough at Church, they don`t feel the Spirit and they aren`t/haven`t "sang the song of redeeming grace."   They also have not been sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise and are Snufferites as I understand it.  I tried to get them to read The Crucible of Doubt because I found it such a useful book in answering doubts and questions about the Church.  We couldn`t talk about the book.  They had to keep bringing up that they had been deceived by their leaders and couldn`t trust them.  I have tried to keep to basics with them.  I am interested in reading and watching this presentation.  Maybe I can help my friends.   

[rockpond]

They had to keep bringing up that they had been deceived by their leaders and couldn`t trust them.

 

I keep seeing this result as well.  The Brethren's past decisions to teach a whitewashed version of the restoration narrative is now causing members to feel deceived and betrayed as they discover the full story.

[Scott Lloyd]

I keep seeing this result as well.  The Brethren's past decisions to teach a whitewashed version of the restoration narrative is now causing members to feel deceived and betrayed as they discover the full story.

Bilge water.

[readstoomuch]

I keep seeing this result as well.  The Brethren's past decisions to teach a whitewashed version of the restoration narrative is now causing members to feel deceived and betrayed as they discover the full story.

It isn`t about a whitewashed version of Church History.  They talked about City Creek Mall, the Church not teaching the pure doctrines of the restoration, being too much of a corporation.  They used to talk about the whitewashed version of Church History.  Now they talk about it needing to be like the days that are no longer whitewashed  to them because they found out about them and are no longer bothered by them.  They are bothered by the Church not being like the non-whitewashed history that the Church should have been teaching.  

[sunstoned]

It isn`t about a whitewashed version of Church History.  They talked about City Creek Mall, the Church not teaching the pure doctrines of the restoration, being too much of a corporation.  They used to talk about the whitewashed version of Church History.  Now they talk about it needing to be like the days that are no longer whitewashed  to them because they found out about them and are no longer bothered by them.  They are bothered by the Church not being like the non-whitewashed history that the Church should have been teaching.  

I agree that there is a lot of talk about the multi-billion dollar mall, but I know many who feel betrayed by what some call the whitewashed history.  

[JLHPROF]

I haven't had time to read this entire thread, but it seems to me that people who believe in higher principles and ordinances of the gospel as taught by Joseph Smith in Nauvoo and all the prophets of the 1800s are being marked as falling into the Snufferite box.

That is inaccurate for so many reasons, and frankly does a good job convincing people that elements of the restored gospel aren't worth their time. Snuffer has no understanding of priesthood and teaching you can receive these blessings outside of correct channels is a false gnosticism. But ignoring restored truths isn't any better.

[HappyJackWagon]

That is inaccurate for so many reasons, and frankly does a good job convincing people that elements of the restored gospel aren't worth their time. Snuffer has no understanding of priesthood and teaching you can receive these blessings outside of correct channels is a false gnosticism. But ignoring restored truths isn't any better.

Mormonism is gnostic at a very foundational level so every faithful LDS is a Mormon gnostic to some degree. If we weren't we wouldn't believe in the mysteries of Godliness found in temples.

 

So the real question is about the Mormon gnostics who pursue and claim additional knowledge in an unapproved way.

While we look at the fundamentalists as apostates because they are not following direction of the current prophets, they likewise view us as apostates because we've abandoned the gnostic teaching and practice of plural marriage as essential for exaltation. 

[jkwilliams]

Mormonism is gnostic at a very foundational level so every faithful LDS is a Mormon gnostic to some degree. If we weren't we wouldn't believe in the mysteries of Godliness found in temples.

 

So the real question is about the Mormon gnostics who pursue and claim additional knowledge in an unapproved way.

While we look at the fundamentalists as apostates because they are not following direction of the current prophets, they likewise view us as apostates because we've abandoned the gnostic teaching and practice of plural marriage as essential for exaltation.

Yep. Since the days of Hiram Page, there's always been a tension in the church between personal revelation/gnosticism and priesthood authority. We're supposed to seek personal revelation daily, but we are to disregard it if if conflicts with what our priesthood leaders tell us. What Sister Hedelius seems to be describing is the tendency to value personal revelation over priesthood authority.

[stemelbow]

Yep. Since the days of Hiram Page, there's always been a tension in the church between personal revelation/gnosticism and priesthood authority. We're supposed to seek personal revelation daily, but we are to disregard it if if conflicts with what our priesthood leaders tell us. What Sister Hedelius seems to be describing is the tendency to value personal revelation over priesthood authority.

I get her point but I certainly think she takes her criticism a little too far in trying to identify people she has a problem with, mostly because what and Happy have said.