Duncan Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 It seems to me that our discourse in the Church is that we chose our station in life, we chose our problems to deal with, we chose all this stuff. What I wonder about though is if that is the case then some poor homeless person, why should we help them out, if God placed them in a position where they chose prior to coming to be homeless or an alcoholic or whatever then obviously that's what God wants for them then why help someone in that position out? I don't want to mess with God's plans for them. It doesn't have to be homelessness but did we choose this or did God choose this for us? It seems the more we know the less we know and more that life and what God knows doesn't seem fair or just or merciful.
Jeanne Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 Gees Duncan, That is a tough question ..but a good one. I used to think that the different stations in life were by choice or by our station in the pre-existence.But that is so sad. Perhaps, they are to be here to test our compassion by choice..or by the spirit which they were known. Evenso, this is one of the things that don't make sense because we are ALL God's children. Sometimes I think that we keep having to redefine God's love..in a eternal perspective. I am ashamed. Have had poor and homeless people stop me to wash my windshield on the car. Simple things in loving others..and not feeling like they are a disturbance in our lives...are hard and real. Then you look at somebody like Elizabeth's Smart..and know that the homeless affected her life in a very difficult and sad way because of said compassion. Go figure..for a long time I thought it would be just Sunday School in the afterlife after reading a lot of Brigham Young's take..but we don't know. For me,in any non-religious but spiritual capacity, I hold onto life after death. with that said, I have people telling me that I won't even be able to be with my husband, When you find out more..please let me know. Many hugs..and many; moons from now, I hope you will know who I am..and at least say "hello". There are teaching moments in this life that don't make sense under the perspective of the LDS Church. If my children chose me as a parent..how great is my disappointent to them. Guilt and fear are not just words..until we know the truth of many things, they are a part of our lives. That, too, is sad. 1
Traela Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 That sounds an awful lot like Divine Right of Kings and all that feudalistic rot. Sure, let's not ever do anything to help someone improve their lot in life, because it might interfere with God's plan! *sarcasm off*Considering that we have been told over and over to help our neighbors, it is our duty to help wherever and whenever we can, in whatever way seems wisest in that particular circumstance. 1
Ahab Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 There's something in business philosophy called the Platinum Rule that states we should do unto others as they want us to do unto them. Within reason, of course, coupled with the Golden Rule. It works pretty well in most situations. 1
Rivers Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 I don't believe for a second that I would have willfully chosen the crap I am going through. 3
Ahab Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 If I chose my life as I've lived it I'd like to know what I was thinking! 2
rodheadlee Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 I'm pretty sure I chose my wife in the premortal life and my Mom and Dad.
CV75 Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 It seems to me that our discourse in the Church is that we chose our station in life, we chose our problems to deal with, we chose all this stuff. What I wonder about though is if that is the case then some poor homeless person, why should we help them out, if God placed them in a position where they chose prior to coming to be homeless or an alcoholic or whatever then obviously that's what God wants for them then why help someone in that position out? I don't want to mess with God's plans for them. It doesn't have to be homelessness but did we choose this or did God choose this for us? It seems the more we know the less we know and more that life and what God knows doesn't seem fair or just or merciful. I think because we chose to help. And we chose to do other things too, but fell short just like they may have done, and someone will help us... and we may have even chosen to be helped! 1
Tacenda Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 (edited) I've mentioned before that my niece gave me a reading recently, first one I've had. I told her I was struggling with having been robbed of many years with my mother who had Alzheimer's at a young age, very bitter. My niece told me my mom said she picked it for herself, or had a choice of it. I thought, how LDS sounding, my niece is a Catholic. But apparently, she (mom) wants me to be proactive. But in my mind, some days I dream of how I'll end it. But I guess that's how brave my mother was. She didn't take the easy road. Those that choose homelessness or to be born with a handicap or some other extreme hardship, might be doing it for others to learn compassion and empathy. Helping us to show it by helping if we can, if that's how it works. Though like Jeanne, ever since Elizabeth Smart, I struggle with trust issues. Edited July 25, 2015 by Tacenda
Flyonthewall Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 I do not believe for a second that we chose our specific status in life here. We may have agreed to the possibilities that we would be faced with, but choosing a specific status sounds too much like pre-destination. 3
Hikinggal Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 As a teacher I have seen much child abuse and neglect over the years. I can not see how this horrid start in life would be a choice. I struggle enough with the concept of a kind and loving God with infinite power allowing such travesties. I am quite sure I did not pick an alcoholic mother and an absentee father to be my parents. I love them, but know I did not deserve to be left alone all night as my mother hit the bars and my father took his new family on vacations. And my childhood is very tame compared to some of my student's. Boy, I feel better getting that off my chest! 3
strappinglad Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 (edited) Anyone want to comment on the story in the scriptures about the apostles asking Christ about the man born blind, if he had sinned or his parents? Christ said neither, but that he was born to show the glory of God. People become homeless for many reasons , but the majority are there because of mental issues or drug problems. This business of one 'choosing ' one's station in life is fraught with questions. Does a man choose to be a serial killer from the pre-mortal realm time? One hopes not, but that choice WAS made in mortality. Perhaps it is like the question on the missionary application form ( or at least it used to be there )," do you have a preference as to where you would like to serve? " . You can give a preference but there are no guarantees. The longer I live , the more I think that getting a mortal body is 95% of the reason we are here. The other 5 % involves learning and testing. Note: that is from Strappinglad 3:7 . Edited July 25, 2015 by strappinglad 1
mormonnewb Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 By the way, where does our conception of a pre-mortal existence come from anyway? Book of Mormon? Pearl of Great Price? D&C? I heard a lot about it from the missionaries but not so much since then.
Tacenda Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 (edited) Anyone want to comment on the story in the scriptures about the apostles asking Christ about the man born blind, if he had sinned or his parents? Christ said neither, but that he was born to show the glory of God.People become homeless for many reasons , but the majority are there because of mental issues or drug problems. This business of one 'choosing ' one's station in life is fraught will questions. Does a man choose to be a serial killer from the pre-mortal realm time? One hopes not, but that choice WAS made in mortality. Perhaps it is like the question on the missionary application form ( or at least it used to be there )," do you have a preference as to where youwould like to serve? " . You can give a preference but there are no guarantees. The longer I live , the more I think that getting a mortal body is 95% of the reason we are here. The other 5 % involves learning and testing. Note: that is from Strappinglad 3:7 .I tend to side with this. But maybe God gives the option whether or not to choose or let come what may. Tacenda 7:24ETA: Mormonnewb, I remember reading it in a members NDE, thinking Betty J. Eadie. Edited July 25, 2015 by Tacenda
Duncan Posted July 25, 2015 Author Posted July 25, 2015 By the way, where does our conception of a pre-mortal existence come from anyway? Book of Mormon? Pearl of Great Price? D&C? I heard a lot about it from the missionaries but not so much since then. there are snippets in the Bible, like Job 38
Okrahomer Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 By the way, where does our conception of a pre-mortal existence come from anyway? Book of Mormon? Pearl of Great Price? D&C? I heard a lot about it from the missionaries but not so much since then.The Premortal existence is an essential part of LDS doctrine as outlined by the Plan of Salvation. One finds references to it in all four Standard Works. You might take a look at the Topical Guide under the headings of Plan of Salvation and Premortal Life for several scriptural references. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/premortal-life?lang=engYou could also refer to Chapter 2 of the Gospel Principles manual. https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-2-our-heavenly-family?lang=eng 3
Storm Rider Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 It seems to me that our discourse in the Church is that we chose our station in life, we chose our problems to deal with, we chose all this stuff. What I wonder about though is if that is the case then some poor homeless person, why should we help them out, if God placed them in a position where they chose prior to coming to be homeless or an alcoholic or whatever then obviously that's what God wants for them then why help someone in that position out? I don't want to mess with God's plans for them. It doesn't have to be homelessness but did we choose this or did God choose this for us? It seems the more we know the less we know and more that life and what God knows doesn't seem fair or just or merciful. Duncan, should anyone help you if you are sick or should we just leave you to the problems of illness for you to deal with? Should we raise children after they are able to walk and talk or should we allow them to live and learn? One of the purposes of life is to learn to serve one another; in doing so we find ourselves and we become true disciples of Jesus Christ. We may be damned because of the hardness of our hearts toward others; they may very well have been the Savior. Remember Matt 25:35-40? 1
Duncan Posted July 25, 2015 Author Posted July 25, 2015 Duncan, should anyone help you if you are sick or should we just leave you to the problems of illness for you to deal with? Should we raise children after they are able to walk and talk or should we allow them to live and learn? One of the purposes of life is to learn to serve one another; in doing so we find ourselves and we become true disciples of Jesus Christ. We may be damned because of the hardness of our hearts toward others; they may very well have been the Savior. Remember Matt 25:35-40? yes, so we may not know the cause but we can and should change the affects, is that what you are saying? we know why we are here and where we came from and generally where we are going but the specifics aren't known to us as to why this or that?
filovirus Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 All men are the spirit children of the Eternal Father; all dwelt in his presence, awaiting the day of their mortal probation; all have come or will come to earth at an appointed time, in a specified place, to live among a designated people. In all of this there is no chance. A divine providence rules over the nations and governs in the affairs of men. Birth and death and mortal kinship are the Lord's doings. He alone determines where and when and among what people his spirit children shall undergo their mortal probation.Is it inappropriate to ask: Why are there different races of men? Why is there a white, a yellow, and a black race? In the days of Israel's first bondage, why did the Lord send some spirits in the lineage of enslaved Jacob and others to their Egyptian overlords? Why were some spirits sent to earth among the Amalekites, the Assyrians, and the Babylonians, while others at the same moments found birth in the house of Israel? Why was Antipas sent as the son of a debauched and evil Herod, while John the Baptist came into the home of a priestly Zacharias and a saintly Elisabeth?All of these things operate by law; they are the outgrowth of long years of personal preparation in preexistence on the part of each individual; they come to pass according to the laws that the Lord has ordained. This second estate is a continuation of our first estate; we are born here with the talents and capacities acquired there. Abraham was one of the noble and great spirits in the premortal life. He was chosen for his mortal ministry and position before he was born, and as with the father of the faithful so with all of the spirits destined to be born as his seed.Bruce R. McConkie, New Witness for the Articles of Faith ( 1985) 1
Avatar4321 Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 I tend to think the reason some people are placed in difficult circumstances is specifically to see if we will help them.
Storm Rider Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 yes, so we may not know the cause but we can and should change the affects, is that what you are saying? we know why we are here and where we came from and generally where we are going but the specifics aren't known to us as to why this or that? Yes, I don't really buy the concept that all was known and we accepted the mission and all its details. It think the concept was known, we would go to earth; just like we have a concept of the afterlife, but we don't really have a handle on the specifics. 1
Duncan Posted July 25, 2015 Author Posted July 25, 2015 All men are the spirit children of the Eternal Father; all dwelt in his presence, awaiting the day of their mortal probation; all have come or will come to earth at an appointed time, in a specified place, to live among a designated people. In all of this there is no chance. A divine providence rules over the nations and governs in the affairs of men. Birth and death and mortal kinship are the Lord's doings. He alone determines where and when and among what people his spirit children shall undergo their mortal probation.Is it inappropriate to ask: Why are there different races of men? Why is there a white, a yellow, and a black race? In the days of Israel's first bondage, why did the Lord send some spirits in the lineage of enslaved Jacob and others to their Egyptian overlords? Why were some spirits sent to earth among the Amalekites, the Assyrians, and the Babylonians, while others at the same moments found birth in the house of Israel? Why was Antipas sent as the son of a debauched and evil Herod, while John the Baptist came into the home of a priestly Zacharias and a saintly Elisabeth?All of these things operate by law; they are the outgrowth of long years of personal preparation in preexistence on the part of each individual; they come to pass according to the laws that the Lord has ordained. This second estate is a continuation of our first estate; we are born here with the talents and capacities acquired there. Abraham was one of the noble and great spirits in the premortal life. He was chosen for his mortal ministry and position before he was born, and as with the father of the faithful so with all of the spirits destined to be born as his seed.Bruce R. McConkie, New Witness for the Articles of Faith ( 1985) that's the thing how much of of this life is a continuation of the last? it makes God out like a jerk if he knew a parent would kill their kid(s,) like Susan Smith and how much could someone like that change if God saw it happening and apparently did nothing about it. How much say does that lady have if she couldn't and didn't change anything to avert that tragedy?
Ahab Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 I think it's possible that I chose my mortal parents and their status/situation as it was when I was born, as one among many of the situations offered to me, and I was possibly made aware of our Fathers plan to try to help them later in life, but still thr things my mortal parents chose to do were based on their own choices among those that were available to them in their lives. My Dad had already chosen to be a minister of another church so that opened the door to at least get some knowledge of the gospel through the Bible, and my Mom was at one time excited to be married to him, but they chose to divorce later and I didn't choose that for them and I don't think I necessarily knew that was going to happen before I came here. They divorced when I was 4 in Earth years. At the least I think there was a limit to how much I saw premortality.
strappinglad Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 If you read the teachings of someone like John Calvin , it can be quite discouraging because ,according to him , you are chosen to be saved or chosen to be damned and nothing you do can change it. Pre-destination removes all agency and really blames God for everything. False doctrine, of course ,but it has its proponents. Does the OP suggest that one pre-destines one's self by pre-mortal choices? I'm not a fan ! 1
Duncan Posted July 25, 2015 Author Posted July 25, 2015 If you read the teachings of someone like John Calvin , it can be quite discouraging because ,according to him , you are chosen to be saved or chosen to be damned and nothing you do can change it. Pre-destination removes all agency and really blames God for everything. False doctrine, of course ,but it has its proponents. Does the OP suggest that one pre-destines one's self by pre-mortal choices? I'm not a fan ! I don't know! that's what I am asking, we had a lesson on sunday and the teacher was saying we all chose this and that and we chose our trials and we chose our parents and we chose this and that. It was in Gospel Principles so I didn't to argue with the guy.
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