filovirus Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 that's the thing how much of of this life is a continuation of the last? it makes God out like a jerk if he knew a parent would kill their kid(s,) like Susan Smith and how much could someone like that change if God saw it happening and apparently did nothing about it. How much say does that lady have if she couldn't and didn't change anything to avert that tragedy?That is the beauty of the plan of salvation. We go through the veil and forget all the preconceived ideas we had in premortal life. We are born again. We get a new start. A brand new time to prove ourselves to our Father in Heaven. Because we kept our first estate, whether we were noble and great or whether we were on the verge of supporting Lucifer, God was bound to send us to Earth. Susan Smith has the same right to prove herself as you and I have. And we each get to use our own individual agency. God is not making our decisions for us. It is all you and me deciding for ourselves.Before we go calling God a jerk, I think it is important to understand what he goes through seeing such monstrosities happen.Moses 728 And it came to pass that the God of heaven looked upon the residue of the people, and he wept; and Enoch bore record of it, saying: How is it that the heavens weep, and shed forth their tears as the rain upon the mountains?32 The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;33 And unto thy brethren have I said, and also given commandment, that they should love one another, and that they should choose me, their Father; but behold, they are without affection, and they hate their own blood;37 But behold, their sins shall be upon the heads of their fathers; Satan shall be their father, and misery shall be their doom; and the whole heavens shall weep over them, even all the workmanship of mine hands; wherefore should not the heavens weep, seeing these shall suffer?40 Wherefore, for this shall the heavens weep, yea, and all the workmanship of mine hands.41 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto Enoch, and told Enoch all the doings of the children of men; wherefore Enoch knew, and looked upon their wickedness, and their misery, and wept and stretched forth his arms, and his heart swelled wide as eternity; and his bowels yearned; and all eternity shook.What is God's love? ALL ETERNITY SHOOK because of the sadness that God has to see and let happen. 1
Duncan Posted July 25, 2015 Author Posted July 25, 2015 That is the beauty of the plan of salvation. We go through the veil and forget all the preconceived ideas we had in premortal life. We are born again. We get a new start. A brand new time to prove ourselves to our Father in Heaven. Because we kept our first estate, whether we were noble and great or whether we were on the verge of supporting Lucifer, God was bound to send us to Earth. Susan Smith has the same right to prove herself as you and I have. And we each get to use our own individual agency. God is not making our decisions for us. It is all you and me deciding for ourselves.Before we go calling God a jerk, I think it is important to understand what he goes through seeing such monstrosities happen.Moses 728 And it came to pass that the God of heaven looked upon the residue of the people, and he wept; and Enoch bore record of it, saying: How is it that the heavens weep, and shed forth their tears as the rain upon the mountains?32 The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;33 And unto thy brethren have I said, and also given commandment, that they should love one another, and that they should choose me, their Father; but behold, they are without affection, and they hate their own blood;37 But behold, their sins shall be upon the heads of their fathers; Satan shall be their father, and misery shall be their doom; and the whole heavens shall weep over them, even all the workmanship of mine hands; wherefore should not the heavens weep, seeing these shall suffer?40 Wherefore, for this shall the heavens weep, yea, and all the workmanship of mine hands.41 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto Enoch, and told Enoch all the doings of the children of men; wherefore Enoch knew, and looked upon their wickedness, and their misery, and wept and stretched forth his arms, and his heart swelled wide as eternity; and his bowels yearned; and all eternity shook.What is God's love? ALL ETERNITY SHOOK because of the sadness that God has to see and let happen. But that sounds like that clockmaker idea, God winds up a clock and just leaves it to go on its own and just stands back, doesn't God get involved in anything or is he just a bystander and we are in this lab type environment
filovirus Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 God will and does influence our decisions, but he won't take away our agency. God sent the prophet Jeremiah to Laman and Lemuel. He called their father, Lehi, as a prophet to testify to them. He called their brother, Nephi, to testify to them. He gave them the brass plates as a testimony to them. Heck, he even sent an angel to rebuke them personally. All that influence to their decisions, but they still used individual agency for their decisions.We have the scriptures. Prophets. Holy Ghost. Light of Christ. Personal revelation. Missionaries. Testimonies. Etc. All these to influence our decisions. He doesn't leave us alone in a lab to just watch. He cares deeply. 1
Duncan Posted July 25, 2015 Author Posted July 25, 2015 (edited) God will and does influence our decisions, but he won't take away our agency. God sent the prophet Jeremiah to Laman and Lemuel. He called their father, Lehi, as a prophet to testify to them. He called their brother, Nephi, to testify to them. He gave them the brass plates as a testimony to them. Heck, he even sent an angel to rebuke them personally. All that influence to their decisions, but they still used individual agency for their decisions.We have the scriptures. Prophets. Holy Ghost. Light of Christ. Personal revelation. Missionaries. Testimonies. Etc. All these to influence our decisions. He doesn't leave us alone in a lab to just watch. He cares deeply. That's good! Do you think we chose our stations in life and we can't and shouldn't change them? Edited July 25, 2015 by Duncan
filovirus Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 (edited) I do not believe we chose our station in life. And I still believe in the American dream. Life is what we make it. Birth was just a starting point.Edit: I do not know if we had any input into our initial station in life or not. Utimately it was God's decision. Edited July 25, 2015 by filovirus 1
The Nehor Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 The idea that we chose our lives in premortality is not scripturally supported. I suspect in some cases it is true and others it is not. I have been told that I chose the season of my life and God granted it to me but I do not know if I chose my parents or my weaknesses or my trials. I may have. 2
tagriffy Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 It seems to me that our discourse in the Church is that we chose our station in life, we chose our problems to deal with, we chose all this stuff. What I wonder about though is if that is the case then some poor homeless person, why should we help them out, if God placed them in a position where they chose prior to coming to be homeless or an alcoholic or whatever then obviously that's what God wants for them then why help someone in that position out? I don't want to mess with God's plans for them. It doesn't have to be homelessness but did we choose this or did God choose this for us? It seems the more we know the less we know and more that life and what God knows doesn't seem fair or just or merciful. When it comes to helping others in need out, it is irrelevant how they came to be in need. It is not an option for us. See Mosiah 4:16-23.
tagriffy Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 I tend to think the reason some people are placed in difficult circumstances is specifically to see if we will help them. Ugh. IMO, that is even a worse position to take. God knows us intimately and already has a pretty good idea whether we will help them or not. What you are suggesting is that God deliberately causes suffering to an innocent person for the sake of some stupid test. 1
rpn Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 (edited) I don't see any way that we could have selected our circumstances, and little way we could have selected our people. 1) We were spirits. We knew Heavenly Parents, but we had no way to understand the differences involved in having a body or living in the world. Further, we are part of Their Plan, which is to give us each the individual experiences we need to return to Them having learned and become what They would have us know and be. How in the world could we have selected for ourselves what would most help us do that. Further They are all knowing, but spirit children could not understand earthly lifes any more than we can now figure out what life is like on Pluto. (f we could perceive the physical elements of life, how could we have the experience to understand that a grass shack in Hawaii in a tourist attraction would be completely different life than a grass shack in Mongolia. 2) While there are specific exceptions that we know of --- Jesus being born to Mary, the one that comes to mind ---- we could not have selected our parents or friends or relatives. If we could have, then there could be no agency, because to have someone be born at the exact place and time to specific parents or to have another specific spirit enter a body that would live a life that would allow the two to meet and marry requires physical control over all decisions for millennia. And we know that agency is a central role in the plan. We get much of misplaced cultural notion of the pre-existence from Saturday's Warriors (which is about to be revived I'm told, which I regret to the extent that it continues the misinformation). We get more of it because as mortals we have a hard time understanding how much knowledge we've gained with our body and mortal life. Even when we chose to follow God's plan in the first estate, we couldn't have had anything more than a vague knowledge of what it meant to confront evil, or feel pain or various other emotions. We know we were individuals. We know we were able to recognize truth. We know we could identify the noble and great ones. We know we had talents. But we don't know a whole lot about what our spirits can do or be without a body. We just know that whatever our spirits are/were without a body, they were without the power to be exalted, which can only be reached after receiving and learning to control the body. Edited July 25, 2015 by rpn 2
JLHPROF Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 I do believe we were foreordained to our birth situation and families. I am not convinced we had any say in our trials, although looking at the lives and missions of people like Moses, Joseph Smith, and the Savior with their required trials I am open to change on that.However I think by and large our trials are the result of either our agency or some else's.Along the same lines I also think mortal agency often changes the families to which we are sent.
CA Steve Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 Were those that followed Satan to eternal damnation foreordained to follow him? 1
Garden Girl Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 I do not believe for a second that we chose our specific status in life here.We may have agreed to the possibilities that we would be faced with, but choosing a specific status sounds too much like pre-destination. Neither do I, FotW... and I agree that we had a general knowledge of possibilities and difficulties, but our agency was to be pivotal... The Premortal existence is an essential part of LDS doctrine as outlined by the Plan of Salvation. One finds references to it in all four Standard Works. You might take a look at the Topical Guide under the headings of Plan of Salvation and Premortal Life for several scriptural references. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/premortal-life?lang=engYou could also refer to Chapter 2 of the Gospel Principles manual. https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-2-our-heavenly-family?lang=eng When we participated in the Grand Council, we were made aware that a veil would cover our memories and we would forget our heavenly home... so that we could exercise our agency to choose good or evil... we learned the purpose of our progression and that all of us would have trials, sickness, disappointment... but we understood these would be given generally to us for experience and for our growth... our good... we also learned we would have a Savior... But I can see nothing to indicate that unless we were foreordained to a specific calling, i.e., prophet, apostles, various leaders/discoverers, etc., it was anything but our agency that would determine our choices we make here in this estate.... We did not specifically choose which trials, illnesses, circumstances... our initial choice that allowed us to be eligible to come to Earth at all was that we chose to follow Christ... that was our choice, and so we come to this Earth life to be tried and tested... to what extent God placed us in various circumstances or time frames is not certain to me... but I in no way believe we chose specific details in the pre-existence down to being sick, homeless, alcoholic, murderer, etc etc. God will and does influence our decisions, but he won't take away our agency. We have the scriptures. Prophets. Holy Ghost. Light of Christ. Personal revelation. Missionaries. Testimonies. Etc. All these to influence our decisions. He doesn't leave us alone in a lab to just watch. He cares deeply. I agree that our choices are influenced, but still ours overall... GG
Garden Girl Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 I don't know! that's what I am asking, we had a lesson on sunday and the teacher was saying we all chose this and that and we chose our trials and we chose our parents and we chose this and that. It was in Gospel Principles so I didn't to argue with the guy. As far as I'm concerned this is false doctrine and the teacher was wrong to put it forth... I read the chapters in Gospel Principles, including Ch 4 "Freedom to Choose," and no where can I find where in the pre-existence that we chose our trials, our parents, etc etc. It talks about our agency making our life on earth a period of testing. And, when planning the mortal creation of His children, God said, "We will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God commanded them." Without the gift of agency, we would have be unable to show our Heavenly Father whether we would do all that he commanded us. Because we are able to choose, we are responsible for our actions. (If we had made all these specific choices in the pre-existence (i.e., becoming alcoholic, sickness, evil/sin), there would be no need for agency here... no need for testing... because our choices would already have been made... the outcome known)."Our Heavenly Father wants us to grow in faith, power, knowledge, wisdom, and all other good things. If we keep His commandments and make right choices, we will learn and understand. We will become like Him." (See D&C 93:28) GG 3
ERayR Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 As far as I'm concerned this is false doctrine and the teacher was wrong to put it forth... I read the chapters in Gospel Principles, including Ch 4 "Freedom to Choose," and no where can I find where in the pre-existence that we chose our trials, our parents, etc etc. It talks about our agency making our life on earth a period of testing. And, when planning the mortal creation of His children, God said, "We will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God commanded them." Without the gift of agency, we would have be unable to show our Heavenly Father whether we would do all that he commanded us. Because we are able to choose, we are responsible for our actions. (If we had made all these specific choices in the pre-existence (i.e., becoming alcoholic, sickness, evil/sin), there would be no need for agency here... no need for testing... because our choices would already have been made... the outcome known)."Our Heavenly Father wants us to grow in faith, power, knowledge, wisdom, and all other good things. If we keep His commandments and make right choices, we will learn and understand. We will become like Him." (See D&C 93:28) GG Not only is it false but it leads to all kinds of paradox. 3
PeterPear Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 I tend to think the reason some people are placed in difficult circumstances is specifically to see if we will help them. Exactly.
ERayR Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 I tend to think the reason some people are placed in difficult circumstances is specifically to see if we will help them. .But God should have known I was incorrigible.
Recommended Posts