Do The Essays Confirm "anti-Mormon Lies"?

[Joshua Valentine]

From discussion on Thinker's "Are the Essays Backfiring?" poll/topic is another poll/topic inspired!

 

Related to the Gospel Topic Essays possibly backfiring is the issue of whether or not the essays confirm what members were told were only "anti-Mormon lies" by other members or leaders (bishops and up) before the essays were released.  Please vote above (specific votes not viewable [if I did it right]) and feel free to give specifics below or continue this aspect of the topic.

 

If you haven't read the essays, or all of them, yet, go to LDS.org, then click "Scriptures and Study", then "Gospel Topics", then "Explore the Essays" (on the right) and see list of initial essays to the right. Or https://www.lds.org/topics/essays?lang=eng . And don't forget the other essays linked in the body of the first essays!

Edited July 17, 2015 by Joshua Valentine

[JAHS]

If my answer is No to the first question and therefore I choose nothing in the second question it won't let me finish the poll. You need an NA choice.

[why me]

From discussion on Thinker's "Are the Essays Backfiring?" poll/topic is another poll/topic inspired!

 

Related to the Gospel Topic Essays possibly backfiring is the issue of whether or not the essays confirm what members were told were only "anti-Mormon lies" by other members or leaders (bishops and up) before the essays were released.  Please vote above (specific votes not viewable [if I did it right]) and feel free to give specifics below or continue this aspect of the topic.

 

If you haven't read the essays, or all of them, yet, go to LDS.org, then click "Scriptures and Study", then "Gospel Topics", then "Explore the Essays" (on the right) and see list of initial essays to the right. Or https://www.lds.org/topics/essays?lang=eng . And don't forget the other essays linked in the body of the first essays!

I don't think that it confirms what the critics were saying. or that the members were told only antimormon lies. The church never denied what the critics were saying about somes aspects of lds history. However, it did depend on just how the facts were told. For example, I can interpret the fact in an antimormon way or I can interpret a fact in a more faithful way. The critics often attempted to destroy faith with their interpretations. I have seen this on one particular site that had much influence with exmormons. Now the church is giving their interpretations to the facts in an attempt to counter such 'antimormon' interpretations.

[JAHS]

I learned a few new things by readIing the essays but I don't remember being told those things were anti-Mormon lies. 

[Joshua Valentine]

Thanks JAHS for the heads-up.  My first poll and all...

[Tacenda]

The downfall of my belief came when I discovered a chart of Joseph Smith, Jr. married to 33 (?) wives, some married to other men and some extremely young, IMO. I got up and went outside and saw my neighbor across the street. I went over and chatted and then told her what I ran onto by accident online. She told me it was all anti lies. Her mother was anti and told her many things, probably some on the essays. MMM was one I discovered soon after, they just kept coming and my world changed.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Tacenda

[Bobbieaware]

The downfall of my belief came when I discovered a chart of Joseph Smith, Jr. married to 33 (?) wives, some married to other men and some extremely young, IMO. I got up and went outside and saw my neighbor across the street. I went over and chatted and then told her what I ran onto by accident online. She told me it was all anti lies. Her mother was anti and told her many things, probably some on the essays. MMM was one I discovered soon after, they just kept coming and my world changed.

Since Joseph Smith's practice of plural marriage began only after the publication of the Book of Mormon, do you believe the Book of Mormon might still be the word of God but that Joseph "fell" as a prophet after its publication? or since finding out about Joseph Smith's plural marriages, do you now believe the Book of Mormon was never inspired of God in the first place?

If you don't believe the Book of Mormon was inspired of God, as a former believer do you have any theories about how the young and undereducated Joseph Smith could have produced such a monumental achievement?

[HappyJackWagon]

Much of what is found in the essays was made known previously by the Tanners and in books like No Man Knows My History. Even information that appeared on South Park (like the seer stone in a hat) was dismissed as anti Mormon lies.

 

Yes, I had come across much of the information in my intense study prior to the essays but I discounted them largely because they weren't from authorized sources. When they were confirmed in the essays I had to look at everything again and accept the truth that I had dismissed valid information.

[Mars]

who dismissed it as anti mormon lies, jack?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

who dismissed it as anti mormon lies, jack?

I am not aware of any one every saying that the stone in the hat was an anti Mormon lie.

[jkwilliams]

Several times, I've seen members get upset when people quote the essays to them. Some have even dismissed the essays themselves as "anti-Mormon lies." 

 

I read the essays but haven't thought much about them, other than my response to the plural marriage essay, which I thought was misleading. 

[bcuzbcuz]

who dismissed it as anti mormon lies, jack?

If your question is serious, Is it? then you will know that the issues in the essays were never formally dismissed as lies from any conference or statement from SLC. I cannot recall a single talk from any pulpit that addressed the issues. Broad sweeping terms of warning about "anti-Mormon lies", about reading questionable books, about searching for truths only by reading the scriptures were often preached by general members and renowned authorities. But always in general, broadly defined terms.

Until the essays were published I had never heard any authority say that Joseph Smith had 30+ wives. I had read such information from unapproved books and in later years from anti-Mormon internet sites.

[thesometimesaint]

The downfall of my belief came when I discovered a chart of Joseph Smith, Jr. married to 33 (?) wives, some married to other men and some extremely young, IMO. I got up and went outside and saw my neighbor across the street. I went over and chatted and then told her what I ran onto by accident online. She told me it was all anti lies. Her mother was anti and told her many things, probably some on the essays. MMM was one I discovered soon after, they just kept coming and my world changed.

 

Except that such, and worse were authorized in the Bible.

[jkwilliams]

Except that such, and worse were authorized in the Bible.

 

I've never understood why anyone thinks that's a good argument. 

[HappyJackWagon]

who dismissed it as anti mormon lies, jack?

Parents, Sunday School, Seminary, BYU religion classes, Bishops, Stake Presidents, General counsel from GC- My experience may not be like yours but in my world there was 1 accepted version of church history and everything else was lies that would lead people away from the church. Every source of religious authority in my life pointed towards this.

 

Even now, after the essays, I encounter people refusing to accept the issues. Sometimes they're referred to as lies and sometimes as PR spin by the church. The indoctrination ran deep so it's not surprising that it will take some time to get people to the point where they're willing to accept the idea that their understanding was deeply flawed, largely because of the church's teachings. This is why many suffer a faith crisis and struggle with feelings of betrayal. It runs deep.

[Mars]

Parents, Sunday School, Seminary, BYU religion classes, Bishops, Stake Presidents, General counsel from GC- My experience may not be like yours but in my world there was 1 accepted version of church history and everything else was lies that would lead people away from the church. Every source of religious authority in my life pointed towards this.

 

Even now, after the essays, I encounter people refusing to accept the issues. Sometimes they're referred to as lies and sometimes as PR spin by the church. The indoctrination ran deep so it's not surprising that it will take some time to get people to the point where they're willing to accept the idea that their understanding was deeply flawed, largely because of the church's teachings. This is why many suffer a faith crisis and struggle with feelings of betrayal. It runs deep.

 

i don't deny you had personal dealings where this happened.

 

but can you point to a general counsel from general conference wherein the content of what is now addressed in the essays - any of them - is dismissed as anti-mormon lies?

[ALarson]

Except that such, and worse were authorized in the Bible.

Not true.  Show me where polyandry was authorized in the Bible (I haven't found anywhere this occurred, but would love to see a source you have for this).

[HappyJackWagon]

i don't deny you had personal dealings where this happened.

 

but can you point to a general counsel from general conference wherein the content of what is now addressed in the essays - any of them - is dismissed as anti-mormon lies?

Nope- because those kinds of lies didn't deserve to be acknowledged in a conference. Within the church they were hidden, ignored, obfuscated like they had never happened so why would they be addressed in a conference.

 

On the other hand we have examples from the last couple of years warning against internet lies, which in a way blankets everything from a non church source with the stench of antimormon lies.

Edited July 17, 2015 by HappyJackWagon

[ALarson]

When I first began reading about the history of polygamy in the church, I soon discovered the truth about how Joseph Smith lived it.  This was years ago and I went in to discuss it with my Bishop.  I talked to him about how many wives Joseph had and how young many of them were.  I also told him what I'd found about Joseph living polyandry.  He dismissed them all as anti-Mormon lies and told me to stop reading anti-Mormon material.  

 

He told me the very often repeated opinion regarding how Joseph lived polygamy.  That IF he lived polygamy at all, he only married older widows (most whose husbands had been killed by the mobs and needed someone to take care of them).  And that Joseph was never a "real" husband (as in consummating the marriage).

 

Now these very topics are in the essay on polygamy.  There are more examples too, but these are most likely the big ones for members reading about them for the first time.

 

One can deny that these were thought of as anti lies in years past, but they were (at least by the great majority of members).  

Edited July 17, 2015 by ALarson

[Mars]

@HappyJackWagon

 

I don't follow.

 

First, I asked where you heard dismissals as 'anti mormon lies' (or words to that effect). 

 

You said it happened from your parents through a wider and wider sphere all the way up to general counsel at general conference.

 

I asked you if you could point to an example of such and you say no because ...  and that's where I lose you.

 

Could you elaborate on your reasoning why you can't provide such an example?

Edited July 17, 2015 by Mars

[HappyJackWagon]

I don't follow.

 

First, I asked where you heard dismissals as 'anti mormon lies' (or words to that effect). 

 

You said it happened from your parents through a wider and wider sphere all the way up to general counsel at general conference.

 

I asked you if you could point to an example of such and you say no because ...  and that's where I lose you.

 

Could you elaborate on your reasoning why you can't provide such an example?

I said " Parents, Sunday School, Seminary, BYU religion classes, Bishops, Stake Presidents, General counsel from GC-"

 

I also said "we have examples from the last couple of years warning against internet lies, which in a way blankets everything from a non church source with the stench of antimormon lies."

 

This is what I was referring to. Still unclear?

 

[Mars]

oh ok i think i get it, happyjackwagon

 

you're saying specific naming of content was absent, because they were the kings of lies, but all the same, the "ignore it because it's anti mormon" still came through?  in general conference? 

 

so it was blithe or oblique?  is that it?

[HappyJackWagon]

oh ok i think i get it, happyjackwagon

 

you're saying specific naming of content was absent, because they were the kings of lies, but all the same, the "ignore it because it's anti mormon" still came through?  in general conference? 

 

so it was blithe or oblique?  is that it?

First of all "kings" was a typo- It should have been "kinds".

 

Yes- warningings against anti-mormon lies came through loud and clear in conference. Therefore, if something sounded bad and was unknown by leaders or teachers it was dismissed as anti mormon lies. Are you taking the position that difficult history like JS polygamy/polyandry etc was readily accepted by the brethren in GC and the church membership in general? If so, your experience is very different than mine.

 

As an experiment try going into your ward next Sunday and talk about seer stone in a hat, joseph smith polygamy, multiple first vision accounts, racism in the church (priesthood ban) and see if you don't get considerable push back. Please return and report.

[jkwilliams]

One thing I was thinking about is that the essay is quite candid about Joseph using his seer stone to look for treasure. In pretty much everything I can find in LDS publications until now, his employment with Josiah Stowell is described as reluctant, and no mention is made of the seer stone. In every case, there seems to be an effort to distance Joseph from the endeavor and point everything toward Stowell. I think that's why that particular essay may be jarring to some members.

Edited July 17, 2015 by jkwilliams

[rockpond]

I can't recall if anyone ever told me that these things were "anti-mormon lies".  The problem that I had with these issues is that the truth stood in contrast to what I had been taught all my life...

 

JS didn't use the U&T to translate the Book of Mormon.

 

JS didn't actually follow his own revelation on plural marriage.

 

No evidence that God wanted black people prohibited from the priesthood and the temple.

 

Prophetic teachings on the reasons for the ban are incorrect.

 

The Manifesto wasn't universally accepted by church leaders as a revelation ending polygamy.