Do The Essays Confirm "anti-Mormon Lies"?

[Tacenda]

Of course what really kept her from a normal teenage life was the murders of her family's church and government leaders and the attacks on the Saints afterwards.

 

 

And it would see her previous existence did not stop her romantic heart or efforts:

I think you are right, it was really wrong to judge like that, I never knew her.

[Jeanne]

I think it was wrong to do to a 14 yr. old, keep her from having a normal teenage life. And yes, some 14 yr. old's got married back in the old days sometimes, but weren't they monogamous? She got married, but didn't even consummate it. So she doesn't date or anything? The only out I give her parents for allowing this arranged non marriage marriage, is they believed Joseph and believed the Second Coming was near. ETA: Wait, she was too young to date, scratch that. Or that's today's standards that she'd be too young date.

Actually, the point is..that this young girl didn't seem to have any choice.  In any case, depriving someone of being with the one they love is a very sad thing. No matter what age, or generation of people, it is not right to take that agency away.

 

[ERayR]

I think it was wrong to do to a 14 yr. old, keep her from having a normal teenage life. And yes, some 14 yr. old's got married back in the old days sometimes, but weren't they monogamous? She got married, but didn't even consummate it. So she doesn't date or anything? The only out I give her parents for allowing this arranged non marriage marriage, is they believed Joseph and believed the Second Coming was near. ETA: Wait, she was too young to date, scratch that. Or that's today's standards that she'd be too young date.

 

The problem. Tacenda, is you are looking at this through 21st century perspective.  As much as you insist on ignoring it those days were not the same as today.  Yes I like present days much better but I do try not to force present day on yesteryear.

[jkwilliams]

The problem. Tacenda, is you are looking at this through 21st century perspective.  As much as you insist on ignoring it those days were not the same as today.  Yes I like present days much better but I do try not to force present day on yesteryear.

Was plural marriage to women without your wife's knowledge accepted more then?

[carbon dioxide]

Actually, the point is..that this young girl didn't seem to have any choice.  In any case, depriving someone of being with the one they love is a very sad thing. No matter what age, or generation of people, it is not right to take that agency away.

 

Nobody put a gun to her head.  Her agency was not taken away and she could have had the sealing cancelled at any time. 

[carbon dioxide]

Was plural marriage to women without your wife's knowledge accepted more then?

How would have Emma taken it if she was fully informed? 

[jkwilliams]

How would have Emma taken it if she was fully informed?

Why does that matter?

[carbon dioxide]

Why does that matter?

How she might react might play a role on why she was not told.   If one expects to be told the truth, they must have the courage to handle it.  If I was Joseph in that situation, I probably would have just divorced Emma. That probably would have been the safer route but perhaps Joseph did not see that as an option.

[jkwilliams]

How she might react might play a role on why she was not told.   If one expects to be told the truth, they must have the courage to handle it.  If I was Joseph in that situation, I probably would have just divorced Emma. That probably would have been the safer route but perhaps Joseph did not see that as an option.

So, it's fine to hide things from your spouse if you think he or she will react badly? My wife informs me she doesn't agree.

[carbon dioxide]

So, it's fine to hide things from your spouse if you think he or she will react badly? My wife informs me she doesn't agree.

Depends on the situation.  Generally the answer is no.  One should not hide things from their spouse.  I believe Joseph was told by God about the practice of polygamy.  I believe that Emma was approached on the subject and she rejected the concept.  So Joseph has one of two options.  Make the wife happy for a short period of time and live life peacefully and be damned for eternity or put God first and follow his command. I believe our first priority is to follow God.  If the spouse is a stumbling block, one might have to do things they would not normally do to follow God.  I am sure Joseph would have preferred things to be different but he did the best he could under the circumstances.  I think overall Joseph made the right call and if I am correct, he will be exalted.  Those that choose to condemn him for it will do so in a less than exalted state in a lower kingdom for eternity.  I am quite confident Joseph will not be bothered by the criticism if he even chooses to listen to the complaining from afar.

 

[jkwilliams]

Depends on the situation.  Generally the answer is no.  One should not hide things from their spouse.  I believe Joseph was told by God about the practice of polygamy.  I believe that Emma was approached on the subject and she rejected the concept.  So Joseph has one of two options.  Make the wife happy for a short period of time and live life peacefully and be damned for eternity or put God first and follow his command. I believe our first priority is to follow God.  If the spouse is a stumbling block, one might have to do things they would not normally do to follow God.  I am sure Joseph would have preferred things to be different but he did the best he could under the circumstances.  I think overall Joseph made the right call and if I am correct, he will be exalted.  Those that choose to condemn him for it will do so in a less than exalted state in a lower kingdom for eternity.  I am quite confident Joseph will not be bothered by the criticism if he even chooses to listen to the complaining from afar.

I don't condemn Joseph Smith, but I see no reason to justify his behavior.

[carbon dioxide]

I don't condemn Joseph Smith, but I see no reason to justify his behavior.

I am sure if he had to do things over again with what he knows now, he would have done things differently.  For me its not about finding reasons to justify it but to understand it in the unique situation he was in.  I don't view his actions on this to be one of a role model for others to follow.  We can't say "Well since Joseph did it, I can do it too."  Nobody can say that.  I just think he made the best in the "rock and the hard place" he was placed in.  So I make an exception for him.

[sunstoned]

Was plural marriage to women girl without your wife's knowledge accepted more then?

There, fixed that for ya.

[bcuzbcuz]

Why does that matter?

Why does that matter????? You're not married, right?

I don't know about you or anybody else here, but my wife expects certain things from me. She expects honesty, respect and devotion, to say the least. If I told her I had a long list of other women/girls who I was married to, she would not need more than a few seconds to kick my sorry *** out the door.

Do you honestly think such information would leave Emma unmoved, undisturbed?

[jkwilliams]

Why does that matter????? You're not married, right?

I don't know about you or anybody else here, but my wife expects certain things from me. She expects honesty, respect and devotion, to say the least. If I told her I had a long list of other women/girls who I was married to, she would not need more than a few seconds to kick my sorry *** out the door.

Do you honestly think such information would leave Emma unmoved, undisturbed?

 

I think you agree with me: honesty shouldn't depend on fear of how the other person might react. And I've been happily married for 28 years.

[webbles]

So, it's fine to hide things from your spouse if you think he or she will react badly? My wife informs me she doesn't agree.

Rebeccah apparently thought it was ok to deceive her husband into blessing her favorite son.  And Abraham apparently thought it was ok to not tell his wife that he was going to sacrifice their only son.

 

I do agree, though, that it is generally a bad idea to not decieve your spouse.

[webbles]

I think it was wrong to do to a 14 yr. old, keep her from having a normal teenage life. And yes, some 14 yr. old's got married back in the old days sometimes, but weren't they monogamous? She got married, but didn't even consummate it. So she doesn't date or anything? The only out I give her parents for allowing this arranged non marriage marriage, is they believed Joseph and believed the Second Coming was near. ETA: Wait, she was too young to date, scratch that. Or that's today's standards that she'd be too young date.

I happened to be reading about the Saudi line of succession and noticed that there was a 13 year old polygamous marriage in there.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussa_bint_Ahmed_Al_Sudairi

[ALarson]

Rebeccah apparently thought it was ok to deceive her husband into blessing her favorite son.  And Abraham apparently thought it was ok to not tell his wife that he was going to sacrifice their only son.

 

I do agree, though, that it is generally a bad idea to not decieve your spouse.

I also agree.  And, this is why members who learn of how Joseph Smith lived polygamy struggle with it but then most have no issue with how Brigham Young (and others) lived it.  I know there are reasons given for why Joseph hid what he was doing and why Brigham didn't, but what Joseph did behind Emma's back is hard to justify for many. 

 

I'd guess that most members are learning for the first time about the deception and lies involved with Joseph's polygamy when they read the essays and then do some followup research on their own. They then also learn that he married teenagers and other men's wives.  IMO, very few members knew about this prior to the release of the essays. 

 

I tend to believe that members of this forum are much better informed and knowledgeable than the average church member.  I know that many of you knew the details contained in the essays before they were written and published.  But my experience in my own ward (and being involved with teaching and planning the 5th Sunday lessons on the Essays) has been that the majority of members have no idea about the true history of the church, polygamy and so on.

[Thinking]

I happened to be reading about the Saudi line of succession and noticed that there was a 13 year old polygamous marriage in there.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussa_bint_Ahmed_Al_Sudairi

 

Hassa bint Ahmed was born in 1900. King Abdulaziz married her twice^. She was his 8th wife. Their first marriage was in 1913 when she was thirteen years. In 1920, they remarried^. In the period between their first and second marriages, Hassa bint Ahmed married King Abdulaziz’s half brother of the same age, Muhammad bin Abdul Rahman. Hassa had a son from this marriage, Abdullah bin Mohammad.

 

It is assumed that Ibn Saud remained in love with Hassa bint Ahmed, and therefore, forced his half-brother to divorce her so that he could remarry her. Hassa bint Ahmed and King Abdulaziz remained married until the latter's death in 1953.

 

Is this the kind of example that somehow makes Joseph's marriage to Helen Mar Kimball seem more acceptable?

[webbles]

Is this the kind of example that somehow makes Joseph's marriage to Helen Mar Kimball seem more acceptable?

No.  It was just an interesting factoid that I thought was kind of relevant to Tacenda's comment about 14 year olds and monogomous marriages.

[Joshua Valentine]

Let me be more specific.  It is one thing to simply raise an issue (say Joseph Smith was sealed to a 14 year old which is true) and drawing a conclusion from that which may be a lie (Joseph Smith was a pedophile and just wanted a lot of sex).  There is simply no evidence to suggest that Joseph ever had a sexual relationship with that 14 year old.  Having read enough anti-mormon material in my life I can say with confidence that truth can be found in their claims that is also mixed with lies, misrepresentations, ect.   People can use truth and abuse that truth through evil motives to get people to arrive at conclusions that the truth never really supports. 

 

I recalled this reply today and realized that, in the flow of things, I never responded to it as much as I thought it deserved to be:

 

I understand the distinction you are making between information and conclusions, however, as my wife was simply told that the information "JS married a 14 year old and had about 33 wives" was just "anti-Mormon lies" (she made no conclusion, just asked about the fact), many people's instances of being told something is an "anti-Mormon lie" only include the facts:

 

Joseph used a stone in a hat to translate the BoM. Joseph drank wine in Carthage Jail.  Joseph used a gun against the mob.

 

I don't hear members asking "Was Joseph into magic?" or "Was Joseph a drunkard?" or "Was Joseph a murderer?" or "Was Joseph a pedophile?" or "Was Joseph a lecher?"

 

carbon dioxide, this consideration would seem to deny your distinction's significance, and thus weaken your defense of whatever you were trying to defend. 

 

Perhaps I should have asked in the OP for people to give examples of the statements they were told were only "anti-Mormon lies".  If anyone would like to share PLEASE DO!

[Joshua Valentine]

Having read enough anti-mormon material in my life I can say with confidence that truth can be found in their claims that is also mixed with lies, misrepresentations, ect.   People can use truth and abuse that truth through evil motives to get people to arrive at conclusions that the truth never really supports. 

 

I think that many, looking back on what they were taught by the LDS Church (compared to what it now admits is true), would say the same thing.

[carbon dioxide]

I recalled this reply today and realized that, in the flow of things, I never responded to it as much as I thought it deserved to be:

 

I understand the distinction you are making between information and conclusions, however, as my wife was simply told that the information "JS married a 14 year old and had about 33 wives" was just "anti-Mormon lies" (she made no conclusion, just asked about the fact), many people's instances of being told something is an "anti-Mormon lie" only include the facts:

 

Joseph used a stone in a hat to translate the BoM. Joseph drank wine in Carthage Jail.  Joseph used a gun against the mob.

 

I don't hear members asking "Was Joseph into magic?" or "Was Joseph a drunkard?" or "Was Joseph a murderer?" or "Was Joseph a pedophile?" or "Was Joseph a lecher?"

 

carbon dioxide, this consideration would seem to deny your distinction's significance, and thus weaken your defense of whatever you were trying to defend. 

 

Perhaps I should have asked in the OP for people to give examples of the statements they were told were only "anti-Mormon lies".  If anyone would like to share PLEASE DO!

The Church does not have clean hands on these issues.  It has done a horrible job informing members on a lot of stuff.  It has chosen to ignore issues and as a result, when these issues are raised, some members think they are anti-mormon lies.  The issues are legitimate and instead of addressing the issues, the Church has allowed its critics the space to make their arguments without little counterargument.  Thus in effect surrendering it to them.  The Church does not need to educate the members on these issues on Sunday.  But they can educate members in providing resources online and in print so the issues can be covered by home teachers or at FHE.  That is what I plan to do in my family.  I plan to cover issues that are not discussed in Church with my sons so they are not caught off guard later in life.  My sons will be so much more informed when they get to missionary age than I was. 

[ALarson]

Perhaps I should have asked in the OP for people to give examples of the statements they were told were only "anti-Mormon lies".  If anyone would like to share PLEASE DO!

I already posted earlier about my experience after learning that Joseph Smith had married teenagers and other men's wives.  I went to my Bishop to ask questions and hopefully get some answers and he simply told me to stop reading anti-Mormon lies and material.

 

I have also heard people call the stone in the hat translation method anti-Mormon lies and that Joseph used the same stone to search for buried treasure was a lie.

 

All of the above are now included in the essays as being the truth.

Edited July 21, 2015 by ALarson

[Tacenda]

I already posted earlier about my experience after learning that Joseph Smith had married teenagers and other men's wives.  I went to my Bishop to ask questions and hopefully get some answers and he simply told me to stop reading anti-Mormon lies and material.

 

I have also heard people call the stone in the hat translation method anti-Mormon lies and that Joseph used the same stone to search for buried treasure was a lie.

 

All of the above are now included in the essays as being the truth.

This is the stinkin' worst thing about the essays.  It's all true.  Nothing will change it.  No matter how hard one wishes it weren't. So many anti lies are true.  Now what do we have left to hold onto?  The good people, I guess so.  Or maybe there are closeted Atheists and it's a good place to raise a family, or there is service and parties and things to keep you out of trouble.  Or that's what religion is all about keeping people in line.  Now the church seems to be on a slippery slope with people that struggle with the anti lies being truth.  What do we have to hold onto?  Maybe if it'd just been taught at the beginning openly and outwardly so many wouldn't suffer.  I seriously think it causes so much pain, in myself, in others and their marriages and in families.  I think the church needs to humble apologize or get revelation before it gets out of control.  A prophet or leaders should lead.  Or get out of the way and let us just have God.  We need some guidance, STAT!