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'Mormon Group' Plans "Mass Weekend Resignation" From Church


CQUIRK

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My question is why you would take such statements so personally if you didn't feel there was some truth in them. Honestly if someone says something that doesn't apply to me I don't pay any attention to it. To accept the ill-fitting shoe when it isn't yours seems to be a way of excusing your anger.

I don't know your circumstances but I do know human nature. I think sometimes people just say too much of what should be kept private and then they get upset when someone comments negatively to what they say. If you don't want to hear someone else's view on on something then don't ask them.

Sorry, but sitting there in a church meeting listening to people say things like "people who don't get a testimony are insincere or weren't listening when the spirit whispered " is extremely infuriating, precisely because I so desperately wanted that witness. For people to then turn around and indirectly accuse me of insincerity or harboring a secret sin, or worse, blame my parents, is a slap in the face.

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Spammer:

Just apply the old maxim: Sometimes it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to give voice and remove all doubt.

I suppose, then, I should have just remained silent. I appreciate your mormony sentiment. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that a spirit of pharisaism is still alive and well in the church. My wife keeps telling me I'm wrong in that view.

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Look, folks, I'm not trying to be annoying. I'm sorry if I'm coming across as a crank. It's true, this has been eating at me for a long time. I see no way around it, though, or see any way I can get anything out of church meetings. This kind of thing evidently still keeps coming up. It really does make me angry when I hear church members talk about people who fail to get a testimony as if they've necessarily done something wrong. The fact is, I followed all of the rules, dotted every 'i', crossed every 't', prayed, fasted, paid tithing, magnified my callings, did all of these things to the best of my ability for years. Nothing happened. Just utter silence. That's when the despair set in. The anger came later, when I began really listening to what people were saying about people like me and their obvious (to mormons) insincerity, sin, bad parenting, etc. I see the justifications continue, as evidenced by responses to my post in this thread. That's really too bad. I'd love to tell my wife she's right that the church has changed.

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I'm sorry (and, to be quite frank, absolutely baffled) that you feel that the Gospel apparently has borne absolutely no good fruit in your life, and yes, like most who strive to be faithful, I wonder how that could possibly be so. To compare it with something I know something about (though I often wish I didn't) it's like the deeply depressed person who is thoroughly convinced that there's absolutely nothing worth living for: no family, no friends, no associates, no talents, no interests, no simple things capable of penetrating the gloom and bringing at least momentary joy, et cetera, ad infinitum.

No redeeming value in the Church or in the Gospel whatsoever? :huh::unsure: It doesn't even do any good for your wife, your children, or your extended family, even if it's not necessarily for you? Wow. I'll take "cultural Mormonism" over that state of affairs any day! (By the way [and this is a sincere question], if we're so odious to hang out with in person, why do you hang out with us on line? ;))

I wish you well.

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I'm sorry (and, to be quite frank, absolutely baffled) that you feel that the Gospel apparently has borne absolutely no good fruit in your life, and yes, like most who strive to be faithful, I wonder how that could possibly be so. To compare it with something I know something about (though I often wish I didn't) it's like the deeply depressed person who is thoroughly convinced that there's absolutely nothing worth living for: no family, no friends, no associates, no talents, no interests, no simple things capable of penetrating the gloom and bringing at least momentary joy, et cetera, ad infinitum.

No redeeming value in the Church or in the Gospel whatsoever? :huh::unsure: It doesn't even do any good for your wife, your children, or your extended family, even if it's not necessarily for you? Wow. I'll take "cultural Mormonism" over that state of affairs any day! (By the way [and this is a sincere question], if we're so odious to hang out with in person, why do you hang out with us on line? ;))

I wish you well.

Who said anything about good fruits or whether the church has any redeeming value? You've missed my point completely. I'm talking about a spiritual witness. I'm glad for the good environment I grew up in, my friends, the good programs, and the values I was taught, all of it good fruits, but Mormons don't monopolize any of that. I'm talking about an answer to Moroni's Promise, a testimony that the church is true, any kind of spiritual experiences at all. People in church say "I feel the spirit" all the time. Well, I never did. That has nothing to do with good fruits. And I'll be equally frank. Since the Church does not monopolize good fruits, and as there are other traditions out there with equally good programs and strong values, the one thing that matters is whether the church is true. That determination requires a spiritual witness.

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The scriptures say that if one is sick,have the elders come and pray over them. There are numerous anecdotes as to the effectiveness of those prayers and blessings.There are also many cases where the prayers went unanswered and people have struggled for years with afflictions.Paul is an ancient example.

I can sympathize with your struggles and see your point about some members assuming all the incorrect motives.I often remember the quote from Nibley about the error in the scriptures where it says that "men became carnal,sensual. and devilish" He said the word 'stupid'was left out.

I think,for some, the cross to bare is the unanswered prayer.

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I have found some comfort in the Catholic spiritual tradition, namely the work of St. John of the Cross. The concept of the long, dark night of the soul describes my experience perfectly. I'm also comforted by the existence of a Christian tradition that considers faith not grounded in reason to be a heresy (fideism). It helps that there are Christians who still believe solely on intellectual grounds. That also describes my experience perfectly. But I don't mean to derail this thread any longer. That was not my intention. Sorry folks.

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Sorry, but sitting there in a church meeting listening to people say things like "people who don't get a testimony are insincere or weren't listening when the spirit whispered " is extremely infuriating, precisely because I so desperately wanted that witness. For people to then turn around and indirectly accuse me of insincerity or harboring a secret sin, or worse, blame my parents, is a slap in the face.

Yes people can be insensitive, thoughtless and rude. I have seen it in church settings, in business settings and in social settings. I have probably been guilty of it myself. People can also be hypersensitive and get their feelings hurt quite easily and when the two problems show up in the same room, at the same time, things usually don't turn out well.

Should people make insensitive, thoughtless and rude statements? No. Should other people take personal offense at these statements? No. So where does this leave us in the blame game?

I decided to believe the Churches truth claims 40 - 45 years ago. Have I received an Alma or a Paul or a Joseph Smith experience or any thing near? No, but somewhere over all those years as I read and studied and prayed I received a quiet peaceful assurance that my decision was right. If I had waited for that spectacular experience I would have missed a lot of years of some great fellowship.

Oh, about those who make insensitive, thoughtless and rude statements in church classes I gently tell them they are wrong. In social and business settings I either privately talk to them or ignore and forget it. A statement attributed to Brigham Young fits quite well. He who takes offense when none is intended is a fool and he who takes offense when it is intended is a bigger fool.

We can't control what others do or say but we can control how we react to it.

Don't give up on the spiritual witness. Go back and enjoy the fellowship and gently correct those who are insensitive, thoughtless and rude and wait and listen for you confirmation. It will show up someday and if it doesn't, well you will find it has been a good life anyway.

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Spammer,

What did you expect to be considered a spiritual witness? I'm honestly curious, because I've seen similar statements before where they did a, b, and c but never received D... And the first question in my mind is, what did they expect D to be? Personally, my "D" wasn't very big. Sure, some people pray and receive an amazing answer. Mine was fairly small and fell along the lines of "well, duh." I was rapidly changing and meant a lot of reliance on the Lord...which meant relying on scripture, prayer, etc. And the answers that it was true weren't one big culmination, but several small answers over years. Over time, I've come to recognize the spirit more and more. I've had bigger manifestations of the spirit. But honestly, the vast majority of them were small and still are.

As for the wards and blaming the victim/family. I haven't noticed much. Sure it happens. But I'm probably just not very sensitive to it or I just don't see it as harsh accusations as you've had. You notice most, what you have a claim already in. For you its a lack of a testimony. So I'd assume whatever entailed no testimony/faith/belief etc would stick out to you. And since it was a sore spot for you, It may also come off as extremely harsh. I don't mean this to demean your experience, but just an honest descriptor of what's a very human response. Very few escape it.

With luv,

BD

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"What did you expect to be considered a spiritual witness?"

Something, anything, remotely resembling the kinds of experiences church and family members claimed to have on a regular basis. I don't need to enumerate them. People say "I feel the spirit so strongly" in meetings. I have no idea what that means. I never felt anything.

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"What did you expect to be considered a spiritual witness?"

Something, anything, remotely resembling the kinds of experiences church and family members claimed to have on a regular basis. I don't need to enumerate them. People say "I feel the spirit so strongly" in meetings. I have no idea what that means. I never felt anything.

Please read my post #159 at least the third paragraph. Hope it helps.

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A typical, 'blame the struggler' statement. Did you attend my final elder's quorum meeting?

Except if you noticed I made the statement generic. Believers have the same issue of filtering the world through their expectations. It is just a very common human approach to life. No one should be surprised when it happens. You shouldn't be surprised if you feel like everywhere you turn your experiences confirm your decisions. It is nothing to get upset about when it happens, to blame yourself or to blame others. If one experiences one's expectations not being met, then one can really sit up and take notice of that because the difference had to be significant enough to get past those filters.
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Look, folks, I'm not trying to be annoying. I'm sorry if I'm coming across as a crank. It's true, this has been eating at me for a long time......

If you want support and not analysis of your comments, you should be posting in Social Hall, not in the discussion/dialogue/debate forums.
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... People in church say "I feel the spirit" all the time. Well, I never did. That has nothing to do with good fruits.

I disagree, and so, I think, would the Apostle Paul: See Galatians 5:22-23.

And I'll be equally frank. Since the Church does not monopolize good fruits, ...

No, it doesn't. If one is content with thirtyfold or sixtyfold, rather than an hundredfold, more power to him or her.

... and as there are other traditions out there with equally good programs and strong values, the one thing that matters is whether the church is true. That determination requires a spiritual witness.

It's possible to feel the Spirit and not recognize it. See 3 Nephi 9:20. I don't know that there's all that much difference between you and the average rank-and-file member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints except that ... and I mean no offense ... you've given up, and they haven't. To each, his or her own. I wish you well.

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Blanket statements by some church members about people who lose their testimonies make it very personal to people like me. Sorry, but I needed to get my experience out there. It's not the case that everyone who leaves the church does so because they're insincere, harboring secret sin, or had bad parents. That's the motive for my post. Some people really don't have their prayers answered. Such comments are hurtful and help to drive people like me away.

Well do it somewhere else. Not here.

Nemesis

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