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'Mormon Group' Plans "Mass Weekend Resignation" From Church


CQUIRK

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Well down the line polygamy did hurt people. Thousands to be exact who are in the FLDS groups.

You can't blame polygamy for the abuses of the FLDS any more than you can blame Christianity for the abuses of the crusades.

It was wrong in the bible and it is wrong in this dispensation. Case closed.

It wasn't always wrong in the bible, just like it hasn't always been wrong in this dispensation.

Unless of course you think that Abraham, Isaac, and especially Jacob (the father of the 12 tribes of Israel-God's chosen people-through polygamy) were condemned of God.

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The historian in me is forcing me to point out that the early 1900s, especially before the start of WWI and after, was very politically active, including protesting.

Just saying....

:pardon:

lol Bluebell...thank you. :) I was thinking "Boston Tea Party".

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I understand someone getting to this point and maybe it's easier to do this with a support group but marching to an historical spot and making theater out of it is just strange to me. It's a personal decision of faith (or lack of) and is probably better done in private. It is not easy being Mormon and many times I have felt the burden on my back. Trying to explain to my sincere gay friends why they can't marry, or defend polygamy when I find it abhorrent or try not to be deeply ashamed of myself while explaining why African Americans were denied the Priesthood. I also have difficulty explaining away the narrow, closeminded views of so many members and the often poor advice given by Bishops. But alas despite those issues Mormonism has given me so much beautiful light and knowledge and has awarded me some of the most cherished, profound and yes transcendantly spiritual experiences of my life. I cannot possibly imagine my life without it and cannot find anything to take it's place. The Lord's church was never intended to be easy to be a member of as well as it will always be at odds with the world. The Lord expects a lot of his covenant people as he did throughout the entire Biblical and religious history when he called a people. I think we live in an age of spiritual immaturity and short sightedness. I think many miss the forest for the trees as it regards the church. It pains me because I identify so much with these people and feel like they have so much to offer the church to help it progress and lead it into the next century. Rather then step up to the plate they leave in frustration. The Lord talks about the great sifting going on in several points of the scriptures and how many will not cultivate the faith to make it through the smallest of trials. I also believe that one day an event or series of events will re-shape this great nation and amidst the uncertainty and fear many of those that left will come running back to the safety the Lords church provides.

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... I suspect many will find that leaving the church did not solve all the problems they thought it would solve.

Ya think? ;) I do, too, although like you, I, too, wish them well. :)

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SS, I'm not going to go into detail, but you have to know that both of those statements in your first sentence are very highly debatable. I will say, about polygamy, that the harm that comes is in not knowing the details and finding out by accident (which is what happened to me...and many others, I know). It breaks a very basic trust and causes all kinds of doubts and wonderings about what else has not been revealed. (That's the short reply).

And prop 8, not hurting anyone? Wow. (Very short reply ;))

Do you know what you need to do for your personal salvation and exaltation? Has anything you found out concerning polygamy affected that? If you think so what? and how?

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Well, I would humbly disagree with the bolded part of your statement. They made the covenant of baptism, and now have no claim on it's blessings. I realize most of these people have not been actively living their covenants for some period of time now (Eight years and change for the promoters of this event), but if you are inactive, getting back is as simple as well, coming back to church, maybe having a chat with the bishop about what to do next, etc... But once you have been a member and resigned, the road back is similar to that of an excommunicated member. So, i don't think it's better for them. But I do wish them well on the rest of their life journey. I suspect many will find that leaving the church did not solve all the problems they thought it would solve.

That may be so but it is probably better that they dissolve those covenants than to keep breaking them.

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I'm not arguing the rightness or wrongness of it, StormRider....just that, regardless of what you or I may think about it, people have as much right to follow their own conscience, in whatever way they feel is appropriate, as you or I do. You may have an opinion about it, but unless you really know each and every person's story, you really don't know their motivation. Why second guess? Why a need to judge it, at all?

You are certainly correct in this statement and nobody will dispute that as long as they stay within legal bounds that right is their. However, some things are just classless.

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Well down the line polygamy did hurt people. Thousands to be exact who are in the FLDS groups. But you may not worry too much about them since they're not LDS. But there is one who is a member in good standing and that my friend is Elizabeth Smart. That is the fruit of polygamy. It was wrong in the bible and it is wrong in this dispensation. Case closed.

Prop 8, yes it has, the poor people that took their lives because they couldn't imagine living knowing the sin of loving someone of the same sex is so condemned by loved ones and outsiders that they felt a hatred for just being themselves.

No that is the fruit of a twisted mind and polygamy did not twist minds.

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Do you know what you need to do for your personal salvation and exaltation? Has anything you found out concerning polygamy affected that? If you think so what? and how?

It made me question whether or not Joseph Smith was a prophet. If the church is true...I guess that does affect my salvation. If it is not, perhaps, it was something I needed to know.

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It made me question whether or not Joseph Smith was a prophet. If the church is true...I guess that does affect my salvation. If it is not, perhaps, it was something I needed to know.

Why, was it because it didn't fit your concept of what he should be? Do you think John the Baptist would fit the picture better? Or maybe Paul? Or Moses?

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Why, was it because it didn't fit your concept of what he should be?

At the time (four years ago), it just made me realize that I didn't even really know this man, whom I was calling a prophet. I am still not sure about who he was....but, now, at least, I do see other possibilities, than the one I originally entertained (which was completely negative). I can even concede to the possibility that he may have been a prophet.

Do you think John the Baptist would fit the picture better? Or maybe Paul? Or Moses?

I guess your point would be that they were all sinners. I don't have a problem with everyday sin...we all sin. The whole polygamy issue was much more than that, having to do with things that God was supposedly telling Joseph to do...that didn't sound like things God would tell someone to do.

But, all of that is going way off topic, so I apologize for that. I'd really rather not go down this road, on this thread.

My defense of the protestors had mainly to do with their basic right to protest...but, it also has something to do with knowing, somewhat, where they are, with the church (having been there myself). I almost resigned a couple of years ago, but changed my mind. I don't think the resignation protest came from a simple desire to be noticed. I am fairly sure there is something much deeper going on with most of them, so it just seems disrespectful to talk about them in such negative terms. Someone mentioned that we should not be supportive of something that is wrong...which is fine (I even agree), but, when people are putdown, taunted and have nothing but negative reactions to the problems they are having, instead of real understanding of what they are experiencing...it doesn't help them. It actually deepens the distress and negative feelings they are already having, about the church.

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many of them had signed a "Declaration of Independence from Mormonism" and addressed formal "letters of resignation" to the Utah-based Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to remove their names from LDS records.
I wonder what the actual body count was for those that left as opposed to those that were there to offer support.
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Ta

Well down the line polygamy did hurt people. Thousands to be exact who are in the FLDS groups. But you may not worry too much about them since they're not LDS. But there is one who is a member in good standing and that my friend is Elizabeth Smart. That is the fruit of polygamy. It was wrong in the bible and it is wrong in this dispensation. Case closed.

Prop 8, yes it has, the poor people that took their lives because they couldn't imagine living knowing the sin of loving someone of the same sex is so condemned by loved ones and outsiders that they felt a hatred for just being themselves.

I said and meant LDS not FLDS. If you don't know the difference I suggest you look it up. Elizabeth Smart was abducted. She did not voluntarily marry her abductor. Children are abducted every day in this country. To lay that at the feet of the LDS is about as stupid and bigoted as they get. BTW The Bible is replete with examples of God sanctioned polygamy.

I have a beloved cousin who took his own life because he could not accept his own homosexuality decades before prop 8. There is no evidence that prop 8 had any effect on suicide rates.

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Ta

I said and meant LDS not FLDS. If you don't know the difference I suggest you look it up. Elizabeth Smart was abducted. She did not voluntarily marry her abductor. Children are abducted every day in this country. To lay that at the feet of the LDS is about as stupid and bigoted as they get. BTW The Bible is replete with examples of God sanctioned polygamy.

I have a beloved cousin who took his own life because he could not accept his own homosexuality decades before prop 8. There is no evidence that prop 8 had any effect on suicide rates.

I'm so sorry about your cousin. I have two that are openly gay and one that tried several times to end his life. I agree several have commited suicide before Prop 8. I just think by having to hear that they're not of the same human race as the heterosexuals and they shouldn't be allowed the freedom to seal the deal and get married I think it compounds the problem and many more will take their lives.

I just wanted to mention the FLDS because they are people too. And then I added Elizabeth Smart for the one that is LDS. I honestly believe that Brian David Mitchell in his sick mind thought that he had to live it the way Joseph Smith did by choosing a very young bride. Maybe that's why it isn't talked about in our sunday schools, some men might think it needs to be lived or they'll be damned. Btw, Brian David Mitchell was once my neigbors hometeacher and was a normal guy, until maybe he researched polygamy and therefore the need for correlation in sunday school. Also, polygamy hurts those of us women that dwell on the fact that we'll be asked to live it in the eternities. Or where else are all those righteous sisters that never got married on earth going to go? I've heard it explained that there won't be enough men there. So that some women will have to share their husbands. So in that way it's hurtful.

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I just think by having to hear that they're not of the same human race as the heterosexuals
CFR please
I honestly believe that Brian David Mitchell in his sick mind thought that he had to live it the way Joseph Smith did by choosing a very young bride.

Then why didn't he also choose one who was much older than he was if he was so concerned about living it the way JS had?

And last I checked JS never kidnapped any of his brides. Nor was he sealed to them without their own acceptance and/or their parents' knowledge and acceptance.

BDM could have fixated on any idea and twisted it to fit his desires. Blaming the source of the idea that he chose for the twisting is equivalent to blaming the victim.

some men might think it needs to be lived or they'll be damned
Which makes no sense if the consequence of living it at this time is excommunication which means the severing of one's ordinances, not the establishment of them. But considering the confused and emotional thinking surrounding the subject as evidenced purely by discussion on this board, it is totally understandable why it is thought better to keep such discussion very limited to avoid such remarks.
Btw, Brian David Mitchell was once my neigbors hometeacher and was a normal guy, until maybe he researched polygamy....
That conclusion might have a base if one could find a significant portion of the population who were "normal guy" who researched polygamy and then went out and kidnapped and raped women. As far as I've heard, he's the only one so my guess is it had more to do with him than the subject.

Focusing on a man like BDM as some example of polygamy one has to be concerned about except as a criminal is only going to contribute to an overemotional response to the subject...which if one wants to nurture one's indignation and anxiety works just find but if one wants to resolve the issue in a rational, thoughtful manner probably should be avoided.

Or where else are all those righteous sisters that never got married on earth going to go? I've heard it explained that there won't be enough men there.
What about all the unmarried men who have been killed in wars and such over the eons before having the chance to marry? Why wouldn't there be enough men? Are you really suggesting that there will be about twice as many women as there are men in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom, especially given that there are significantly more male deaths before the age of accountability than female? Given that there is infinite 'time' in eternity, why wouldn't there be infinite numbers of males out there for women, one might have to wait but eventually.........

Your whole premise completely ignores those women who received spiritual confirmation that they should not only accept plural marriage as a doctrine but participate in it themselves. And I am not just talking about "good feelings"...some had actual visions such as Vilate Kimball, as strong as a witness as anything else experienced in their faith, so strong that they were willing to sacrifice everything for it. You can continue to diminish them through your condemnation, I don't think they would appreciate such treatment, they stood against it when they were living, after all.

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CFR please

Then why didn't he also choose one who was much older than he was if he was so concerned about living it the way JS had?

And last I checked JS never kidnapped any of his brides. Nor was he sealed to them without their own acceptance and/or their parents' knowledge and acceptance.

BDM could have fixated on any idea and twisted it to fit his desires. Blaming the source of the idea that he chose for the twisting is equivalent to blaming the victim.

Which makes no sense if the consequence of living it at this time is excommunication which means the severing of one's ordinances, not the establishment of them. But considering the confused and emotional thinking surrounding the subject as evidenced purely by discussion on this board, it is totally understandable why it is thought better to keep such discussion very limited to avoid such remarks.

That conclusion might have a base if one could find a significant portion of the population who were "normal guy" who researched polygamy and then went out and kidnapped and raped women. As far as I've heard, he's the only one so my guess is it had more to do with him than the subject.

I guess there are many that break off into their own groups, take for instance the Manti group. They were ex'd but thought that the LDS was in apostasy.

Sorry if I offended any of you about JS. He did take young brides if you check the facts. They kind of married willingly after strong encouragement from the parents, case in point Helen Mar Kimball.

What is CFR?

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I guess there are many that break off into their own groups, take for instance the Manti group. They were ex'd but thought that the LDS was in apostasy.

Sorry if I offended any of you about JS. He did take young brides if you check the facts. They kind of married willingly after strong encouragement from the parents, case in point Helen Mar Kimball.

What is CFR?

CFR means "call for reference". I have never heard anyone in the Church refer to homosexuals as nonhuman or of a different "race".

I have added some points to the above post. It would probably be a good idea for you to read it again.

I have studied plural marriage extensively. You should read Helen's own words. She was married after her own spiritual witness along with many, if not all of the other women we have record of who accepted Joseph's proposal. You are not offending me in the slightest, but I suspect Helen might be amused at your thinking of her as a victim and would likely have a few choice words of her own about it.

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I just wanted to mention the FLDS because they are people too. And then I added Elizabeth Smart for the one that is LDS.

Tacenda, dear, you really seem to have a problem with analogies. Neither of these things have anything to do with plural marriage as once practiced by the saints. One thing people do not understand is that plural marriage is only sanctioned by God when it is under the New and Everlasting Covenant. That has very strict parameters. Otherwise it is considered an abomination and all polygamous groups practicing today would be considered an abomination.

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Tacenda:

I'm so sorry about your cousin. I have two that are openly gay and one that tried several times to end his life. I agree several have commited suicide before Prop 8. I just think by having to hear that they're not of the same human race as the heterosexuals and they shouldn't be allowed the freedom to seal the deal and get married I think it compounds the problem and many more will take their lives.

I just wanted to mention the FLDS because they are people too. And then I added Elizabeth Smart for the one that is LDS. I honestly believe that Brian David Mitchell in his sick mind thought that he had to live it the way Joseph Smith did by choosing a very young bride. Maybe that's why it isn't talked about in our sunday schools, some men might think it needs to be lived or they'll be damned. Btw, Brian David Mitchell was once my neigbors hometeacher and was a normal guy, until maybe he researched polygamy and therefore the need for correlation in sunday school. Also, polygamy hurts those of us women that dwell on the fact that we'll be asked to live it in the eternities. Or where else are all those righteous sisters that never got married on earth going to go? I've heard it explained that there won't be enough men there. So that some women will have to share their husbands. So in that way it's hurtful.

Anyone that would posit that homosexuals are any less human than heterosexuals is incredibly ignorant if not bigoted, and I have little/no patience with them.Though I do favor domestic partnerships as a function of the law. I do not believe that marriage is the answer. I'm far more interested in people accepting their own sexuality, and living a long and fulfilling life with that acceptance.

Of course FLDS are people too. Even if I do find their religious ideas a little strange for my likes. They don't have to answer to me for their religious ideas. The vast overwhelming majority of LDS are peaceful, law abiding, citizens of whatever country they find themselves in. I really can't lay the illegal actions of someone or some few to the feet of the LDS community. We excommunicate those LDS whom practice polygamy, and really that is the extent of what we can legally and morally do.

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Tacenda, dear, you really seem to have a problem with analogies. Neither of these things have anything to do with plural marriage as once practiced by the saints. One thing people do not understand is that plural marriage is only sanctioned by God when it is under the New and Everlasting Covenant. That has very strict parameters. Otherwise it is considered an abomination and all polygamous groups practicing today would be considered an abomination.

CFR means "call for reference". I have never heard anyone in the Church refer to homosexuals as nonhuman or of a different "race".

I have added some points to the above post. It would probably be a good idea for you to read it again.

I have studied plural marriage extensively. You should read Helen's own words. She was married after her own spiritual witness along with many, if not all of the other women we have record of who accepted Joseph's proposal. You are not offending me in the slightest, but I suspect Helen might be amused at your thinking of her as a victim and would likely have a few choice words of her own about it.

About the comment of gays feeling like they are treated like they are not part of the human race, that is my opinion. Sorry about that.

Like I said before Helen Mar Kimball was encouraged quite strongly to be sealed to JS. Please read the last line in her poem!!!

HELEN MAR KIMBALL

SA2.JPG

In 1843 Apostle Heber C. Kimball had an important talk with his only daughter, fourteen-year-old Helen Mar. She wrote: “Without any preliminaries [my Father] asked me if I would believe him if he told me that it was right for married men to take other wives...The first impulse was anger...my sensibilities were painfully touched. I felt such a sense of personal injury and displeasure; for to mention such a thing to me I thought altogether unworthy of my father, and as quick as he spoke, I replied to him, short and emphatically, ‘No I wouldn’t!’...This was the first time that I ever openly manifested anger towards him...Then he commenced talking seriously and reasoned and explained the principle, and why it was again to be established upon the earth. [This] had a similar effect to a sudden shock of a small earthquake.”

Then father “asked me if I would be sealed to Joseph...[and] left me to reflect upon it for the next twenty-four hours...I was sceptical-one minute believed, then doubted. I thought of the love and tenderness that he felt for his only daughter, and I knew that he would not cast her off, and this was the only convincing proof that I had of its being right. I knew that he loved me too well to teach me anything that was not strictly pure, virtuous and exalting in its tendencies; and no one else could have influenced me at that time or brought me to accept of a doctrine so utterly repugnant and so contrary to all of our former ideas and traditions.” Unknown to Helen Mar, Heber and Joseph had already discussed the prospect of Helen Mar becoming one of Joseph’s wives. Heber now sought her agreement. Helen recalls, “Having a great desire to be connected with the Prophet Joseph, he offered me to him; this I afterwards learned from the Prophet’s own mouth. My father had but one Ewe Lamb, but willingly laid her upon the alter”

The next morning Joseph visited the Kimball home. "[He explained] the principle of Celestial marrage...After which he said to me, ‘If you will take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation & exaltation and that of your father’s household & all of your kindred.[‘] This promise was so great that I willingly gave myself to purchase so glorious a reward. None but God & his angels could see my mother’s bleeding heart-when Joseph asked her if she was willing...She had witnessed the sufferings of others, who were older & who better understood the step they were taking, & to see her child, who had scarcely seen her fifteenth summer, following in the same thorny path, in her mind she saw the misery which was as sure to come...; but it was all hidden from me.” Helen’s mother reluctantly agreed and in May of 1843, Helen married Joseph Smith.

During the winter of 1843-44, there were weekly parties at Joseph Smith’s Mansion House. Many of Helen’s friends attended, as well as her sixteen-year-old brother William. Disappointed, Helen wrote, “my father had been warned by the Prophet to keep his daughter away...I felt quite sore over it, and thought it a very unkind act in father to allow [William] to go and enjoy the dance unrestrained with others of my companions, and fettered me down, for no girl loved dancing better than I did...and like a wild bird I longed for the freedom that was denied me; and thought myself an abused child, and that it was pardonable if I did murmur.”

In June 1844, Heber was away from home on a mission and wrote to Helen: “MY DEAR DAUGHTER-...be obedient to the counsel you have given to you...If you should be tempted, or having feelings in your heart, tell them to no one but your father and mother; if you do, you will be betrayed and exposed...You are blessed, but you know it not. You have done that which will be for your everlasting good for this world and that which is to come. I will admit there is not much pleasure in this world...Be true to the covenants that you have made...Be a good girl;...your affectionate father.” A few weeks later Joseph Smith was killed in Carthage. After one year of marriage, Helen was a widow.

Helen’s father would eventually marry thirty-nine wives. She wrote, “I had, in hours of temptation when seeing the trials of my mother, felt to rebel. I hated polygamy in my heart.” Helen later fell victim to a prolonged illness: “For three months I lay a portion of the time like one dead...I tasted of the punishment which is prepared for those who reject any of the principles of this Gospel.” Eventually she was converted to polygamy and recovered from her illness, “I fasted for one week, and every day I gained until I had won the victory...I learned that plural marriage is a celestial principle, and saw... the necessity of obedience to those who hold the priesthood, and the danger of rebelling against or speaking lightly of the Lord’s annointed”. Helen later summarized her experience with plural marriage in a poem:

I thought through this life my time will be my own

The step I now am taking’s for eternity alone,

No one need be the wiser, through time I shall be free,

And as the past hath been the future still will be.

To my guileless heart all free from worldly care

And full of blissful hopes and youthful visions rare

The world seamed bright the thret’ning clouds were kept

From sight and all looked fair...

...but pitying angels wept.

They saw my youthful friends grow shy and cold.

And poisonous darts from sland’rous tongues were hurled,

Untutor’d heart in thy gen’rous sacrafise,

Thou dids’t not weigh the cost nor know the bitter price;

Thy happy dreams all o’er thou’st doom’d also to be

Bar’d out from social scenes by this thy destiny,

And o’er thy sad’nd mem’ries of sweet departed joys

Thy sicken’d heart will brood and imagine future woes,

And like a fetter’d bird with wild and longing heart,

Thou’lt dayly pine for freedom and murmor at thy lot;

But could’st thou see the future & view that glorious crown,

Awaiting you in Heaven you would not weep nor mourn.

Pure and exalted was thy father’s aim, he saw

A glory in obeying this high celestial law,

For to thousands who’ve died without the light

I will bring eternal joy & make thy crown more bright.

I’d been taught to reveire the Prophet of God

And receive every word as the word of the Lord,

But had this not come through my dear father’s mouth,

I should ne’r have received it as God’s sacred truth.

Helen Mar Kimball

[References]

[Home page]

And about the comment of Gays feeling like they are treated like they are not part of the human race, that is my opinion. Sorry about that.

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At the time (four years ago), it just made me realize that I didn't even really know this man, whom I was calling a prophet. I am still not sure about who he was....but, now, at least, I do see other possibilities, than the one I originally entertained (which was completely negative). I can even concede to the possibility that he may have been a prophet.

I guess your point would be that they were all sinners. I don't have a problem with everyday sin...we all sin. The whole polygamy issue was much more than that, having to do with things that God was supposedly telling Joseph to do...that didn't sound like things God would tell someone to do.

But, all of that is going way off topic, so I apologize for that. I'd really rather not go down this road, on this thread.

My defense of the protestors had mainly to do with their basic right to protest...but, it also has something to do with knowing, somewhat, where they are, with the church (having been there myself). I almost resigned a couple of years ago, but changed my mind. I don't think the resignation protest came from a simple desire to be noticed. I am fairly sure there is something much deeper going on with most of them, so it just seems disrespectful to talk about them in such negative terms. Someone mentioned that we should not be supportive of something that is wrong...which is fine (I even agree), but, when people are putdown, taunted and have nothing but negative reactions to the problems they are having, instead of real understanding of what they are experiencing...it doesn't help them. It actually deepens the distress and negative feelings they are already having, about the church.

OK but what you are doing is limiting what God can or can not, would or would mot, do to what you deem acceptable.

I have my doubts that anyone was "put down". I have no objections to anyone resigning. If they think they have made a mistake then rectify that mistake. As a matter of fact I don't care if they make a public display of it. I think if I really thought I had made a mistake of that magnitude I wouldn't want to show it off in public.

In reality you can only give as much help as they will accept. If they choose to reject the help and go the public spectacle route then there is not much that can be done. Even now if any of them wanted help and would approach it honestly there are any number who reach out to help but the fact that they chose the way they did indicates to me that they are only attempting to bully the church into giving them their own way on some issue or another.

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