Temple Baptisms And Math

[cinepro]

Recently, my mind drifted to the numbers involved in doing Temple baptisms.  Specifically, my current ward sends the youth to the local Temple several times a year, which is much more often then I went when I was a teenager.  There are also many, many more Temples now than there were then.

 

So, assuming that other wards are also regularly sending their youth to do Temple baptisms, is it possible that we would ever run out of names for them to do?  And if so, what happens?

 

Here is a rough estimation of the math as I see it:

 

There are about 12,000 wards in the USA.

http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/statistics/units/

Let's say the average ward has 25 youth, and they do a Temple baptism trip twice a year. At each trip, each youth does 25 baptisms.

So, that would be 1250 per ward per year, * 12000 wards. That's 15 million names per year. 150 million names per decade.

Add in the 10,000 international wards, and it could be quite a bit more.

PBS says the granite mountain vaults had ~ 2 Billion names (mostly inaccessible on microfilm), with 35 million in the Ancestral File.

http://www.pbs.org/Mormons/etc/genealogy.html

I don't know how many actual names the Church has access to for temple work, or the exact number of youth baptisms that are done each year.  The biggest variable would be how many names each youth does on a Temple trip; that could be decreased to slow the pace.

 

But is it possible that we could run out?

 

It also appears there are about 50 million people dying each year worldwide, so that would be plenty if there were a mechanism in place to get them into the system.  Does anyone know if that is set up?

 

 

[JLHPROF]

Well, when you put it like that we know why it's going to take 1000 years plus help from the other side to get all this work done.

[Duncan]

Funny you mention that because maybe 7? years ago we sent a huge stack of names to get baptized and confirmed at the Temple with the youth and leaders. One of my friend told me they were thankful we did that because that was all the names they had! hahahahaha! yeah, sure no problem!!! I think for that reason the Church really wants us to do family history and is now taking reserve status off on names that have been sitting dormant for 2 years

[HappyJackWagon]

It also appears there are about 50 million people dying each year worldwide, so that would be plenty if there were a mechanism in place to get them into the system.  Does anyone know if that is set up?

 

If 50 million die each year and 15 million vicarious baptisms are done, there would never be an end to the work.

 

On average our ward has 25 youth attend 4 times each year as  a ward. On average they do 5-10 names each trip (not 25). Over the past decade the temple has really started limiting the number of names the youth do. I think this is in part to timing restrictions for each group but also to ensure a balance between baptisms and other ordinances being done in the temples.

 

I do enjoy little math problems like this though.

Last week I was thinking about how long it would take the entire earth to flood, covering every piece of land (including Mt. Everest). I think I figured that if the entire earth received 6 inches of rain daily it would take 160 years of rain and flooding to create the global flood. It's kind of a meaningless exercise but fun nonetheless.

[ksfisher]

Youth in our ward do 5 temple names when they go, unless the baptistry is really busy, then they are limited to 3.

[Ticketyboo]

Youth are limited to 6 temple names on a temple visit, both to preserve the sacredness of the ordinance & presumably because there are less names on Temple file.

The youth are requested to search out & take their own family cards, but we also provide plenty from the Branch members.

[Duncan]

Youth are limited to 6 temple names on a temple visit, both to preserve the sacredness of the ordinance & presumably because there are less names on Temple file.

The youth are requested to search out & take their own family cards, but we also provide plenty from the Branch members.

 

in our stake, ward there aren't any restrictions on how many names you can do. We travel 6 hours to the Temple and they want them to do as many as possible to make the trip and everything worth it

[HappyJackWagon]

Youth are limited to 6 temple names on a temple visit, both to preserve the sacredness of the ordinance & presumably because there are less names on Temple file.

The youth are requested to search out & take their own family cards, but we also provide plenty from the Branch members.

How is limiting the number of names done preserving the sacredness of the ordinance?

 

As Duncan said, it becomes an extremely inefficient use of time to have all of those people dedicate travel and temple time to do 5 or so names. I don't see what's sacred about doing fewer baptisms.

[ksfisher]

How is limiting the number of names done preserving the sacredness of the ordinance?

 

As Duncan said, it becomes an extremely inefficient use of time to have all of those people dedicate travel and temple time to do 5 or so names. I don't see what's sacred about doing fewer baptisms.

 

I think there is a nice number somewhere between feeling like you're finished a couple minutes after starting and doing so many that you feel like you've been drowned.  Of course it would also seem appropriate for youth who have to travel long distances to perform more baptisms.  We live about 15 minutes away from the Salt Lake Temple if the traffic is busy.  In our case, being so close, 5 to 10 names feels about right. 

[Scott Lloyd]

Recently, my mind drifted to the numbers involved in doing Temple baptisms.  Specifically, my current ward sends the youth to the local Temple several times a year, which is much more often then I went when I was a teenager.  There are also many, many more Temples now than there were then.

 

So, assuming that other wards are also regularly sending their youth to do Temple baptisms, is it possible that we would ever run out of names for them to do?  And if so, what happens?

 

Here is a rough estimation of the math as I see it:

 

There are about 12,000 wards in the USA.

http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/statistics/units/

Let's say the average ward has 25 youth, and they do a Temple baptism trip twice a year. At each trip, each youth does 25 baptisms.

So, that would be 1250 per ward per year, * 12000 wards. That's 15 million names per year. 150 million names per decade.

Add in the 10,000 international wards, and it could be quite a bit more.

PBS says the granite mountain vaults had ~ 2 Billion names (mostly inaccessible on microfilm), with 35 million in the Ancestral File.

http://www.pbs.org/Mormons/etc/genealogy.html

I don't know how many actual names the Church has access to for temple work, or the exact number of youth baptisms that are done each year.  The biggest variable would be how many names each youth does on a Temple trip; that could be decreased to slow the pace.

 

But is it possible that we could run out?

 

It also appears there are about 50 million people dying each year worldwide, so that would be plenty if there were a mechanism in place to get them into the system.  Does anyone know if that is set up?

Under FamilySearch, many thousands of volunteers internationally are engaged in the work of indexing of primary source records that have been acquired and stored on microfilm over the years by the Church's Family History Department. The volunteers read the records on their own personal computers and extract the information from those records for indexing.

 

In addition to this, teams from the Church are daily digitizing records in far-flung areas (this has largely replaced the microfilming of yesteryear).

 

The indexed records are then made available and searchable on FamilySearch.org for individuals researching their ancestry to provide names for temple ordinance work. In this Internet age, such research is now crowd-sourced so that many relatives working on the same ancestral lines, often unacquainted personally with each other, contribute to a common database, a single family tree, if  you will. Those who cannot find names of ancestors needing temple work on their own direct lines are now being encouraged to research their lateral lines, their cousins.

 

With all of this being done, much of it having come into being within the last decade or so, the sense I get is that there is no danger anytime soon of running out of names to keep the temples busy.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[VideoGameJunkie]

Youth in our ward do 10 names each unless there are more names that are family names. Lots of names need to get done at the Boston Temple.

[Calm]

There is a big emphasis in our stake to get the youth doing research, especially through the new services provided by family search. They are training new Youth Family History Consultants every couple of months (weekly classes).

[Nemesis]

[rockpond]

When we do youth temple trips in our ward, we're lucky enough to have the ward members supply the majority of the names that we do.

 

Regarding limits on youth baptisms:  Our temple generally limits each youth to about 5 baptisms and confirmations but that is generally because of the size of the youth groups and because each ward just gets a two-hour session.  It's just about scheduling.  I assume that if we happened to show up with (for example) just ten youth for our 2 hour session -- they'd probably let them do 10-20 names.  Just a thought.

[Storm Rider]

As is evident by the number of responses, the number of baptisms completed per youth varies depending on the temple and the supply of names provided.  There are many variables:  how many youth groups or other groups will be coming for baptisms, the size of the groups, and the number of priesthood holders present.  

 

Those who have been involved in genealogy for a period of time have seen multiple ordinances performed for some individuals.  That has not been as big of a problem with the effective use of computers, but in previous periods it was easy to have a number of ordinances performed for the same individual on multiple occasions. 

[mormonnewb]

I've never thought that the purpose of temple work was to make a meaningful dent in the 100 BILLION people who died without the benefit of our baptism ordinance.  In my more faithful moments, I've thought that the purpose was the effect such selfless service has on the hearts of the 15 million living saints.  In my more skeptical moments, I've considered temple privileges as a very effective compliance device.  But in any event, I can't see any mathematical formula that would get us ANYWHERE near to posthumously baptizing even 1% of the souls who have inhabited this planet.

[Duncan]

I've never thought that the purpose of temple work was to make a meaningful dent in the 100 BILLION people who died without the benefit of our baptism ordinance.  In my more faithful moments, I've thought that the purpose was the effect such selfless service has on the hearts of the 15 million living saints.  In my more skeptical moments, I've considered temple privileges as a very effective compliance device.  But in any event, I can't see any mathematical formula that would get us ANYWHERE near to posthumously baptizing even 1% of the souls who have inhabited this planet.

 

the brethren know that but do what you can with what you have

[sdc999]

I've never thought that the purpose of temple work was to make a meaningful dent in the 100 BILLION people who died without the benefit of our baptism ordinance.  In my more faithful moments, I've thought that the purpose was the effect such selfless service has on the hearts of the 15 million living saints.  In my more skeptical moments, I've considered temple privileges as a very effective compliance device.  But in any event, I can't see any mathematical formula that would get us ANYWHERE near to posthumously baptizing even 1% of the souls who have inhabited this planet.

You are sounding like a prophet now.  15 million living saints vs. ?5million? active saints.

[mfbukowski]

Here is a rough estimation of the math as I see it:....

I don't know how many actual names the Church has access to for temple work, or the exact number of youth baptisms that are done each year.

I hate to rain on your parade, but I see a problem here.

[mfbukowski]

I've never thought that the purpose of temple work was to make a meaningful dent in the 100 BILLION people who died without the benefit of our baptism ordinance.  In my more faithful moments, I've thought that the purpose was the effect such selfless service has on the hearts of the 15 million living saints.  In my more skeptical moments, I've considered temple privileges as a very effective compliance device.  But in any event, I can't see any mathematical formula that would get us ANYWHERE near to posthumously baptizing even 1% of the souls who have inhabited this planet.

Has anyone ever told you about the millenium?  We have a belief that whatever is not done before will be done during the millenium,  That is kind of the model's safety valve which is accepted on faith of course.

 

The selfless service aspect is of major importance,

[mormonnewb]

Has anyone ever told you about the millenium?  We have a belief that whatever is not done before will be done during the millenium,  That is kind of the model's safety valve which is accepted on faith of course.

 

The selfless service aspect is of major importance,

 

I did hear about the millennium (although not in church, surprisingly).  Of course, the plan for doing 99.9999% of the work in the millennium seems a pretty good argument against spending the massive amounts of time that we currently spend doing such a tiny fraction of the work; unless, of course, there is something the work does for US.  Or, unless you want to have a really good stick to ensure compliance with the rules and regulations (i.e., "pay your tithes or you'll be sitting outside the temple drinking a Diet Snaffle during your daughter's wedding").

[mfbukowski]

I did hear about the millennium (although not in church, surprisingly).  Of course, the plan for doing 99.9999% of the work in the millennium seems a pretty good argument against spending the massive amounts of time that we currently spend doing such a tiny fraction of the work; unless, of course, there is something the work does for US.  Or, unless you want to have a really good stick to ensure compliance with the rules and regulations (i.e., "pay your tithes or you'll be sitting outside the temple drinking a Diet Snaffle during your daughter's wedding").

I do think we could do a lot to better understand the benefits of temple service. but I personally know the benefits are there.  As a worker, I spend at least about 6 hours per week doing ordinances for the dead, and I find the benefits to be immeasurable.

 

I will never stop until they drag me out, and find it to be tremendously rewarding.

 

The theory is that only those who want their work done will be able to communicate their wishes, and so perhaps only those who want their work done could have it done.

 

There are some inconsistencies in those beliefs, but at least there is a description being attempted for how it is to be done.  "We don't know how exactly it will be done" is of course certainly the case, if one sees that as a "convenient mystery" or not is, I suppose, up to the individual.

Edited June 9, 2015 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

But honestly I don't understand why you need to always be so crassly cynical about the church

 

I don't understand what you get out of it being that way.

Edited June 9, 2015 by mfbukowski

[mormonnewb]

But honestly I don't understand why you need to always be so crassly cynical about the church

 

I don't understand what you get out of it being that way.

 

Being crassly cynical is my "thing."  It's how I see the world.  I will confess that it doesn't make me an endlessly happy person, but it does allow me to provide for my family as a humorist because it simply isn't possible to write jokes from my "happy place."  To date, no one has created a joke formula that starts, "Look how wonderful X is."  Besides, I really don't think that our church suffers from too much questioning and cynicism.  Perhaps, that explains why Christ not only surrounding Himself with great men of faith, but a doubting Thomas as well.

 

I do think we could do a lot to better understand the benefits of temple service. but I personally know the benefits are there.  As a worker, I spend at least about 6 hours per week doing ordinances for the dead, and I find the benefits to be immeasurable.

 

I will never stop until they drag me out, and find it to be tremendously rewarding.

 

The theory is that only those who want their work done will be able to communicate their wishes, and so perhaps only those who want their work done could have it done.

 

There are some inconsistencies in those beliefs, but at least there is a description being attempted for how it is to be done.  "We don't know how exactly it will be done" is of course certainly the case, if one sees that as a "convenient mystery" or not is, I suppose, up to the individual.

 

I strongly suspect that there might be something to temple service.  I remember being in the Denver airport and running into two missionaries waiting in line at McDonald's.  Needless to say, I offered to pay for their lunch (if they had been standing in line at Ruth Chris, this would be a much different story).  While talking with them, another saint came up to one of the missionaries and attempted to slip him a $20 bill.  Later, as I relayed the story to my non-member father, he had two questions:

 

(1)  How could he get a missionary name tag?

(2)  What did I think accounted for Mormon generosity in general?

 

In response to the latter question, I guessed that it might have something to do with temple service.  Perhaps, the process of spending some portion of your time each week focused on serving others in the temple might leak outside of the temple and result in the numerous niceties that we do for one another (provided they cost less than $20).  Seriously, I think there might be something to temple service and when the Church recognizes that HF finds women as valuable as 12 yo boys, I might find out what that is.  Sorry, I couldn't help myself.  Crassly cynical is my "thing."

[Senator]

But honestly I don't understand why you need to always be so crassly cynical about the church

 

I don't understand what you get out of it being that way.

 

 

Being crassly cynical is my "thing."  It's how I see the world.  I will confess that it doesn't make me an endlessly happy person, but it does allow me to provide for my family as a humorist because it simply isn't possible to write jokes from my "happy place."  To date, no one has created a joke formula that starts, "Look how wonderful X is."  Besides, I really don't think that our church suffers from too much questioning and cynicism.  Perhaps, that explains why Christ not only surrounding Himself with great men of faith, but a doubting Thomas as well.

 

I gave you and mfb rep point.

 

Not a bad question

Not a bad answer