Are We Too Christian? Culturally I Mean

[Coreyb]

When someone tells me "you Mormons aren't real Christians" I tend to respond with something like "who cares, why would I want to be?" This may seem blasphemous to some, but this is truly how I feel. Now don't take this as me admitting that Jesus isn't all that important to me, because that is not what I am saying. I believe in Jesus, and His religion, I just don't like what has been done/ is being done with the popular name of that religion, particularly by certain large and loud segments of American Christianity. Yes I admit to a location bias, but this is where I live.

I have lived in numerous places across the western and Midwestern United States and my experience is that many of my correligionists (Mormons) seemingly want nothing quite so much as to be accepted as a part of the evangelical Christian community. This seems to go deeper than just wanting to be friends with neighbors. It's like we have this need for validation, that only evangelicals can give.

Perhaps this is just us teaming up to fight our "common enemy", the godless "secular humanists". Perhaps we just really admire our evangelical neighbors and seek to emulate them. Either way, I feel that our adoption of American Christian culture, which I believe has been occurring slowly but steadily over the last century, is robbing us of our mormon-ness, and perhaps more importantly is forcing us to wrestle with their problems because they are becoming ours. Most damaging however IMO is that it puts us in the same camp as them to the rest of Americans, you know, the ever growing secular humanists, plus all the other religions out there. We become just part of the "Christian Right", but an even weirder version of it. I dunno, maybe I am just sick if my mormon friends bombarding me in every situation with all the videos, memes, slogans, music, movies, shows, books, politicians, role models, arguments and causes borrowed from evangelicals, whether they really reflect mormon thought or not.

So if I made any sense, what do y'all think of this?

[Storm Rider]

I am not sure that I would agree with your premise that we seek validation from Evangelicals.  We ask that others recognize that we are disciples of Christ; that we belong to his Church.  

 

Evangelicals are a rather unique type within the greater Christian community.  They are one group that has no leg to stand on to support their existence - they are a church created by man and teaching the gospel as understood by man.  However, they condemn others, all others, for being that thing which they are - a church of man.  They hate Catholics, Orthodox, Mormons, and any other group within the greater body of Christ.  

 

I do agree with you that that it may pain us that others do not see our love of the Savior, but their lack of recognition is irrelevant.  What is of most importance is that we have responded to his call and hear his voice when he calls.  It is of little interest to observe others that profess a belief in the Savior.  We await the bridegroom and pray that our lamps are full of oil. 

[JLHPROF]

I for one have no interest in being accepted as part of the wider sectarian Christian community.

I value our "Mormon-ness". I value being a peculiar people. I agree that we have slowly moved in the sectarian direction.

I think perhaps part of it is the feeling that if we can limit how different we appear to traditional Christians the missionary work might be easier. But changing our "mormon-ness" to gain converts seems self-defeating.

[changed]

The other Christian churches where I live are filled with really incredible people.  I had the privilege of hanging out with a mixed religious group of people yesterday who ended up talking about all of their service projects and work they are doing, and I was truly impressed and even a little jealous.  Our LDS church could learn some things from them. 

[Uncle Dale]

Imagine yourself as an alien visitor from another planet,

sent to earth from some distant cosmic school, to do

some biological and social study.

 

Upon returning home, your teacher holds up a picture

of a Jew, a Christian and a Mormon, and asks you:

 

>One of these things is not like the others,

>One of these things just doesn't belong,

>Can you tell which thing is not like the others.

>By the time I finish my song?

 

Were I that space-traveling student, I suppose that

I'd have to point to the Jew, as being most unlike the

"others."

 

UD

(but it would be a difficult choice, and perhaps the wrong answer)

[boblloyd91]

When someone tells me "you Mormons aren't real Christians" I tend to respond with something like "who cares, why would I want to be?" This may seem blasphemous to some, but this is truly how I feel. Now don't take this as me admitting that Jesus isn't all that important to me, because that is not what I am saying. I believe in Jesus, and His religion, I just don't like what has been done/ is being done with the popular name of that religion, particularly by certain large and loud segments of American Christianity. Yes I admit to a location bias, but this is where I live.

I have lived in numerous places across the western and Midwestern United States and my experience is that many of my correligionists (Mormons) seemingly want nothing quite so much as to be accepted as a part of the evangelical Christian community. This seems to go deeper than just wanting to be friends with neighbors. It's like we have this need for validation, that only evangelicals can give.

Perhaps this is just us teaming up to fight our "common enemy", the godless "secular humanists". Perhaps we just really admire our evangelical neighbors and seek to emulate them. Either way, I feel that our adoption of American Christian culture, which I believe has been occurring slowly but steadily over the last century, is robbing us of our mormon-ness, and perhaps more importantly is forcing us to wrestle with their problems because they are becoming ours. Most damaging however IMO is that it puts us in the same camp as them to the rest of Americans, you know, the ever growing secular humanists, plus all the other religions out there. We become just part of the "Christian Right", but an even weirder version of it. I dunno, maybe I am just sick if my mormon friends bombarding me in every situation with all the videos, memes, slogans, music, movies, shows, books, politicians, role models, arguments and causes borrowed from evangelicals, whether they really reflect mormon thought or not.

So if I made any sense, what do y'all think of this?

I actually agree with your concerns. I have noticed what I perceive to be almost a desperation on our part to be considered mainstream, that we come across as insecure. It isn't doing us any favors. I recall reading about Albert Mohler coming to speak at BYU and saying point blank he didn't believe LDS would be going to Heaven. He is the leader of the Southern Baptist Convention. We do share some cultural values, but that's it. It is very frustrating to see so many LDS try to fit into a certain club that really despises us and always will because of how hateful they are.

[Uncle Dale]

 

...It is very frustrating to see so many LDS try to fit into a certain club that really despises us and always will because of how hateful they are.

 

.

Actually, it may be a worthwhile every four years,

when cooperation for purposes other than making

religious converts rise to the front of peoples'

concerns (at least in the Americas, maybe not so

much elsewhere).

 

But political alliances tend to be temporary things,

and whatever brotherly acceptance comes about

in preparation for an election can fade away as

quickly as the morning dew out on the salt flats.

 

UD

[Coreyb]

I am not sure that I would agree with your premise that we seek validation from Evangelicals.  We ask that others recognize that we are disciples of Christ; that we belong to his Church.  

 

Evangelicals are a rather unique type within the greater Christian community.  They are one group that has no leg to stand on to support their existence - they are a church created by man and teaching the gospel as understood by man.  However, they condemn others, all others, for being that thing which they are - a church of man.  They hate Catholics, Orthodox, Mormons, and any other group within the greater body of Christ.  

 

I do agree with you that that it may pain us that others do not see our love of the Savior, but their lack of recognition is irrelevant.  What is of most importance is that we have responded to his call and hear his voice when he calls.  It is of little interest to observe others that profess a belief in the Savior.  We await the bridegroom and pray that our lamps are full of oil.

I think your perspective is great, but it doesn't reflect my experience in regard to mormon attitudes toward mainstream and evangelical Christians. My experience is limited however.

[Coreyb]

I for one have no interest in being accepted as part of the wider sectarian Christian community.

I value our "Mormon-ness". I value being a peculiar people. I agree that we have slowly moved in the sectarian direction.

I think perhaps part of it is the feeling that if we can limit how different we appear to traditional Christians the missionary work might be easier. But changing our "mormon-ness" to gain converts seems self-defeating.

I agree it would be self defeating if this is indeed the/a reason for our further "christianization", primarily because conservative American style Christians are not a very large group when you talk about every nation, tongue and people. Sure they may be loud and growing in the U.S. compared to other types of Christians, as well as places like Latin America and Africa, but the most dominant ideological trend I see both in the U.S. and most of the world is secularism. Atheism, agnosticism, deism, unorthodox theisms, and above all apatheism. When you look at dialogues (if you can call them that) between staunch secularists and staunch conservative Christians, they talk past each other so much it is as if they speak different languages. Why allow ourselves to be grouped with either camp and inherit their bad manners and false traditions? Edited March 2, 2015 by Coreyb

[Coreyb]

Imagine yourself as an alien visitor from another planet,

sent to earth from some distant cosmic school, to do

some biological and social study.

 

Upon returning home, your teacher holds up a picture

of a Jew, a Christian and a Mormon, and asks you:

 

>One of these things is not like the others,

>One of these things just doesn't belong,

>Can you tell which thing is not like the others.

>By the time I finish my song?

 

Were I that space-traveling student, I suppose that

I'd have to point to the Jew, as being most unlike the

"others."

 

UD

(but it would be a difficult choice, and perhaps the wrong answer)

I suppose I might as well, but should it be this way? I'm not so sure

[Coreyb]

The other Christian churches where I live are filled with really incredible people. I had the privilege of hanging out with a mixed religious group of people yesterday who ended up talking about all of their service projects and work they are doing, and I was truly impressed and even a little jealous. Our LDS church could learn some things from them.

I agree. I have known so many incredible Christians that I learned from, but the same holds true for the Jews, Muslims, Hindu, and secular humanists I have known.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Coreyb

[Coreyb]

I actually agree with your concerns. I have noticed what I perceive to be almost a desperation on our part to be considered mainstream, that we come across as insecure. It isn't doing us any favors. I recall reading about Albert Mohler coming to speak at BYU and saying point blank he didn't believe LDS would be going to Heaven. He is the leader of the Southern Baptist Convention. We do share some cultural values, but that's it. It is very frustrating to see so many LDS try to fit into a certain club that really despises us and always will because of how hateful they are.

Having known MANY evangelicals, southern baptist included, I would say it is a small minority that actually despise Mormons or are hateful (though they are there). Most I know are kind and loving enough, but don't take our religion seriously and think it to be foolishness.

[Tacenda]

I actually agree with your concerns. I have noticed what I perceive to be almost a desperation on our part to be considered mainstream, that we come across as insecure. It isn't doing us any favors. I recall reading about Albert Mohler coming to speak at BYU and saying point blank he didn't believe LDS would be going to Heaven. He is the leader of the Southern Baptist Convention. We do share some cultural values, but that's it. It is very frustrating to see so many LDS try to fit into a certain club that really despises us and always will because of how hateful they are.

I don't think they despise us, they despise the religion.

[Uncle Dale]

I don't think they despise us, they despise the religion.

 

 

I've been doing some reading into what I'll call "traditional societies,"

(to be generous) and homogeneous rural societies, (to be even

more specific).

 

It seems that such folks are typically suspicious of diversity, of

cosmopolitan mixtures and of "others" unlike themselves. They

tend to group "others" into classes and ideologies in simplistic

terms -- such as "All Muslims are the same -- they are not us --

and they'd better not come around here, buying up property

and trying to court our womenfolk."

 

Substitute "Yankees," or "Foreigners" or "Eggheads" or even

"Mormons" for the ethnic group identified in the above paragraph,

and things still stay the same.

 

Oddly enough, people falling into this traditional category don't

see themselves and their neighbors as comprising a "group"

in the same distinct and threatening way that "others" are groups.

 

What I'll call traditionalists are more family-oriented than community

oriented, and more focused upon self-reliance than even upon

family unity and cooperation.

 

Looking at "Mormons" through such eyes, the Saints are a group

of "others" who all think and act alike, and therefore are dangerous

as a possible threat -- not so much a threat against a state, or a

county, or even a congregation or a family -- but a threat against

the "truth" of the self-reliant individual, converted to some particular

fundamentalist belief by personal, one-on-one experience of the

"truth." A "truth" only temporarily or occasionally shared with fellow

traditionalists. A "truth" more centered upon individual salvation

than upon communalism, or kingdom-building, or making the temporal

world a better place.

 

I'll not call them "Evangelicals" -- but, if you've ever come across an

Evangelical whose thinking seems to fit the pattern I've described,

then you'll probably see that the "despising" has less to do with the

content of Mormon religion, than just the simple fact that Mormons

are a close-knit group of cooperating "others" and therefore both

dangerous and "wrong" in the sight of God.

 

Food for thought.

 

UD

[Tacenda]

I've been doing some reading into what I'll call "traditional societies,"

(to be generous) and homogeneous rural societies, (to be even

more specific).

It seems that such folks are typically suspicious of diversity, of

cosmopolitan mixtures and of "others" unlike themselves. They

tend to group "others" into classes and ideologies in simplistic

terms -- such as "All Muslims are the same -- they are not us --

and they'd better not come around here, buying up property

and trying to court our womenfolk."

Substitute "Yankees," or "Foreigners" or "Eggheads" or even

"Mormons" for the ethnic group identified in the above paragraph,

and things still stay the same.

Oddly enough, people falling into this traditional category don't

see themselves and their neighbors as comprising a "group"

in the same distinct and threatening way that "others" are groups.

What I'll call traditionalists are more family-oriented than community

oriented, and more focused upon self-reliance than even upon

family unity and cooperation.

Looking at "Mormons" through such eyes, the Saints are a group

of "others" who all think and act alike, and therefore are dangerous

as a possible threat -- not so much a threat against a state, or a

county, or even a congregation or a family -- but a threat against

the "truth" of the self-reliant individual, converted to some particular

fundamentalist belief by personal, one-on-one experience of the

"truth." A "truth" only temporarily or occasionally shared with fellow

traditionalists. A "truth" more centered upon individual salvation

than upon communalism, or kingdom-building, or making the temporal

world a better place.

I'll not call them "Evangelicals" -- but, if you've ever come across an

Evangelical whose thinking seems to fit the pattern I've described,

then you'll probably see that the "despising" has less to do with the

content of Mormon religion, than just the simple fact that Mormons

are a close-knit group of cooperating "others" and therefore both

dangerous and "wrong" in the sight of God.

Food for thought.

UD

The EV's I've seen on local programs here in the SL Valley, channel TV20, always say they love LDS people, just not the religion. They always say it's the gospel of Joseph Smith and not the gospel of Jesus Christ. Along with that they add in that they worry for our salvation.

[Storm Rider]

The EV's I've seen on local programs here in the SL Valley, channel TV20, always say they love LDS people, just not the religion. They always say it's the gospel of Joseph Smith and not the gospel of Jesus Christ. Along with that they add in that they worry for our salvation.

 

It is always wiser to see what people do rather than what they say.  As the old saying goes, "words are cheap".  

[sheilauk]

The EV's I've seen on local programs here in the SL Valley, channel TV20, always say they love LDS people, just not the religion. They always say it's the gospel of Joseph Smith and not the gospel of Jesus Christ. Along with that they add in that they worry for our salvation.

how very nice of them. I would be more impressed if they simply worried about their own salvation instead of patronising me and lying about my faith.

[williamsmith]

Anyone remember the 'ol Jesus Christ vs. Joseph Smith video?

 

True, one could tell they "cared" in that video, but it was anything but in the spirit of "love" as they claimed in it.

Maybe I'm just a realist, but when people lie and misrepresent over and over in a video, I'm not feeling the "love".

 

Love comes from the Light in Goodness and truth.....  there is no love in darkness, the lying of others.

 

It's not an "accident" that of nearly ALL the critics and anti-mormons who speak against the church, almost not a single one is actually honest in it.

They 99.99% of them use perversion and deception to be critical.

 

A thing that is actually "false", doesn't have to be lied about or misrepresented.  I know I don't about everything/everyone else out there I don't believe or believe are false.

Edited March 3, 2015 by williamsmith

[Ham Clam]

I actually agree with your concerns. I have noticed what I perceive to be almost a desperation on our part to be considered mainstream, that we come across as insecure. It isn't doing us any favors. I recall reading about Albert Mohler coming to speak at BYU and saying point blank he didn't believe LDS would be going to Heaven. He is the leader of the Southern Baptist Convention. We do share some cultural values, but that's it. It is very frustrating to see so many LDS try to fit into a certain club that really despises us and always will because of how hateful they are.

Trying to fit in with the SBC definitely won't be doing us any favors. I mean there are several Baptist churches that aline with the SBC in my area with great people who do great things for the community, but we'd have to bend over backwards until we break our backs to please the Convention.

[The Nehor]

I think we should become more Muslim. Being fifth columnists in the next religious crusades could be fun.

[Robert F. Smith]

When someone tells me "you Mormons aren't real Christians" I tend to respond with something like "who cares, why would I want to be?" This may seem blasphemous to some, but this is truly how I feel. Now don't take this as me admitting that Jesus isn't all that important to me, because that is not what I am saying. I believe in Jesus, and His religion, I just don't like what has been done/ is being done with the popular name of that religion, particularly by certain large and loud segments of American Christianity. Yes I admit to a location bias, but this is where I live.

I have lived in numerous places across the western and Midwestern United States and my experience is that many of my correligionists (Mormons) seemingly want nothing quite so much as to be accepted as a part of the evangelical Christian community. This seems to go deeper than just wanting to be friends with neighbors. It's like we have this need for validation, that only evangelicals can give.

Perhaps this is just us teaming up to fight our "common enemy", the godless "secular humanists". Perhaps we just really admire our evangelical neighbors and seek to emulate them. Either way, I feel that our adoption of American Christian culture, which I believe has been occurring slowly but steadily over the last century, is robbing us of our mormon-ness, and perhaps more importantly is forcing us to wrestle with their problems because they are becoming ours. Most damaging however IMO is that it puts us in the same camp as them to the rest of Americans, you know, the ever growing secular humanists, plus all the other religions out there. We become just part of the "Christian Right", but an even weirder version of it. I dunno, maybe I am just sick if my mormon friends bombarding me in every situation with all the videos, memes, slogans, music, movies, shows, books, politicians, role models, arguments and causes borrowed from evangelicals, whether they really reflect mormon thought or not.

So if I made any sense, what do y'all think of this?

You make a lot of sense here, Coreyb, and a lot of Mormons are busy selling their birthrights for a mess of pottage.  However, they just don't know it, so you'll just have to forgive them.   Yokels is as yokels does.

 

Most Mormons would be shocked to find that their theology has a good deal more in common with secular humanists than with supernatural-believing Christianity in the West.  In fact, of all the Christian religions, only Mormonism has a leg to stand on when evaluated from a secular humanist perspective.

 

By the way, Mormons have recently been included in the category of "Christian" by a major polling organization:  The Public Religion Research Institute (PRRI).  See their report at http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/05/white-christians-minority-america_n_6811484.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592 .

[Rivers]

I actually agree with your concerns. I have noticed what I perceive to be almost a desperation on our part to be considered mainstream, that we come across as insecure. It isn't doing us any favors. I recall reading about Albert Mohler coming to speak at BYU and saying point blank he didn't believe LDS would be going to Heaven. He is the leader of the Southern Baptist Convention. We do share some cultural values, but that's it. It is very frustrating to see so many LDS try to fit into a certain club that really despises us and always will because of how hateful they are.

They're just not that into us.

[mfbukowski]

When someone tells me "you Mormons aren't real Christians" I tend to respond with something like "who cares, why would I want to be?" This may seem blasphemous to some, but this is truly how I feel. Now don't take this as me admitting that Jesus isn't all that important to me, because that is not what I am saying. I believe in Jesus, and His religion, I just don't like what has been done/ is being done with the popular name of that religion, particularly by certain large and loud segments of American Christianity. Yes I admit to a location bias, but this is where I live.

I have lived in numerous places across the western and Midwestern United States and my experience is that many of my correligionists (Mormons) seemingly want nothing quite so much as to be accepted as a part of the evangelical Christian community. This seems to go deeper than just wanting to be friends with neighbors. It's like we have this need for validation, that only evangelicals can give.

Perhaps this is just us teaming up to fight our "common enemy", the godless "secular humanists". Perhaps we just really admire our evangelical neighbors and seek to emulate them. Either way, I feel that our adoption of American Christian culture, which I believe has been occurring slowly but steadily over the last century, is robbing us of our mormon-ness, and perhaps more importantly is forcing us to wrestle with their problems because they are becoming ours. Most damaging however IMO is that it puts us in the same camp as them to the rest of Americans, you know, the ever growing secular humanists, plus all the other religions out there. We become just part of the "Christian Right", but an even weirder version of it. I dunno, maybe I am just sick if my mormon friends bombarding me in every situation with all the videos, memes, slogans, music, movies, shows, books, politicians, role models, arguments and causes borrowed from evangelicals, whether they really reflect mormon thought or not.

So if I made any sense, what do y'all think of this?

Totally agree.

 

The term "christian" (deliberately lower case) has been totally co-opted.

 

Creedal "christianity" is not the gospel of Jesus Christ, and hasn't been for 1900 years in my opinion.  Mormons want to be called "christians".  I have no clue why.

 

To me, WE are the gospel of Jesus Christ, those other people have just stolen the title.

Edited March 6, 2015 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

You make a lot of sense here, Coreyb, and a lot of Mormons are busy selling their birthrights for a mess of pottage.  However, they just don't know it, so you'll just have to forgive them.   Yokels is as yokels does.

 

Most Mormons would be shocked to find that their theology has a good deal more in common with secular humanists than with supernatural-believing Christianity in the West.  In fact, of all the Christian religions, only Mormonism has a leg to stand on when evaluated from a secular humanist perspective.

 

By the way, Mormons have recently been included in the category of "Christian" by a major polling organization:  The Public Religion Research Institute (PRRI).  See their report at http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/05/white-christians-minority-america_n_6811484.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592 .

Bravissimo!!! 

[Storm Rider]

I am not much into determining who is and is not christian or even Christian.  I tend to use a pretty broad brushstroke when using this label: if someone believes that Jesus was the Son of God, lived a perfect life, died on the cross for the sins of the world, was resurrected, sits on the right hand of the Father, and will return again one day....well, they are pretty much a Christian in my book.  

 

What church they attend is irrelevant to me.  The quality of the following Christ is seen in their actions. How well and individual follows Christ is between them and God.