Far West Mo Temple Commandment (Or Prophecy) Retracted?

[ERayR]

They were not inspired? By a scripture that called for the far west location in 1838? How much inspiration do they need?

 

How about a revelation where God tells them Now is the right time?

[mass168]

Patience grasshopper when there is enough activity in the area to sustain it one will be built.

It's not about patience, or waiting until it makes economic sense, it's about fulfilling a prophecy.

Edited January 6, 2015 by mass168

[Danzo]

They were not inspired? By a scripture that called for the far west location in 1838? How much inspiration do they need?

 

We believe modern revelation trumps past revelation.

[ERayR]

It's not about patience, or waiting until it makes economic sense, it's about fulfilling a prophecy.

 

And prophecy is fulfilled when God decides to fulfill in not when you decide.

[mass168]

X

Edited January 6, 2015 by mass168

[mass168]

X

Edited January 6, 2015 by mass168

[mass168]

And prophecy is fulfilled when God decides to fulfill in not when you decide.

God decided on the time already. The revelation gives the time implicitly. And by implicitly, I am being generous because it really doesn't take much mental strain at all to see approximately when work should have continued on that temple.

Edited January 6, 2015 by mass168

[pogi]

Come again?  

[mass168]

The timeline I'm referring to, all references to D&C 115:

Chapter Header: Revelation given April 26, 1838

Verses 9-10: "And let the beginning be made on the fourth day of July next" - Translates to 4 Jul 1839.

Verse 11-12: "And in one year from this day let them re-commence laying the foundation of my house. " "Thus let them from that time forth labor diligently until it shall be finished, from the cornerstone thereof unto the top thereof, until there shall not anything remain that is not finished." - Translates to work on the temple that shouldn't have stopped until completed, commencing on 4 Jul 1840.

Hence, my estimate that the temple should have been completed not too long after 1840, if they focused on it as described in this chapter.

For anyone confused about this timeline I keep talking about.

[stemelbow]

Well whatever the case it does appear we're stuck with having to build a temple in the middle of nowhere someday. Maybe when we do we can build a big ol' building housing a bunch of senior missionaries in order to work at the temple. and if that ever happens, we can start to things like Golden Corrals pop up in the area. And if that happens, well people will start moving there. And when that happens, Jesus will be well on His way back down here.

[ERayR]

God decided on the time already. The revelation gives the time implicitly. And by implicitly, I am being generous because it really doesn't take much mental strain at all to see approximately when work should have continued on that temple.

 

If God had really been as rigid about timing as you are it would have been done.  If he hasn't stuck to your timetable take it up with him.

[stemelbow]

If God had really been as rigid about timing as you are it would have been done.  If he hasn't stuck to your timetable take it up with him.

If God had really been as rigid about whether a revelation would be fulfilled or not, then it would have been done. But the timetable was not mass168s, to be fair. The timetable came via the proposed revelation that spoke about that temple. That the temple wasn't built could very well mean God isn't so rigid about fulfilling his prophecies.

"ehhh...I'll support the prophet saying as much, but if circumstance ruins it, no biggie. I happens. I suppose I could tell that prophet to say it just like I'd like Him to, but I tried that and look what he intends to write anyway? Man, I hope these people figure out that these revelations contain errors and thus, while the spirit is from me, the letter can be a bit wrong. Oh well, better for them to figure that out, even though they are so prone to be instructed in all things."

Whatever the case, though, we're now stuck with having to build a temple in the middle of nowhere at some future date. I suppose once we do, we'll say, "see the prophecy is true". But if we were smart, we'd build it where people are who'll use it and say, "ah well, sometimes scripture is in error. What can we say?"

Edited January 6, 2015 by stemelbow

[HappyJackWagon]

If God had really been as rigid about timing as you are it would have been done.  If he hasn't stuck to your timetable take it up with him.

This is also true about the redemption of Zion. Joseph led Zion's Camp to reclaim Independence but they stopped and Zion was not redeemed. It could be viewed as A) a failed prophesy or B)God's timeline changed, just like the building of the temple at Far West. If one chooses to view these instances as evidence that God's timeline changed, they must still accept that those things will take place because Zion has not been moved and the Far West temple in the Land of Zion will still be built.

[Calm]

Impressive math skills JK.

 

Perhaps with the exception of Utah saints, a 1 1/2 hour round trip commute would have been gladly accepted by members 15 years ago, especially if it resulted in the fulfillment of prophesy/commandment.

For an occasional trip. It however may prevent those with limited movement and for whom extended trips ruled out attending or working in the temple.

[mass168]

If God had really been as rigid about whether a revelation would be fulfilled or not, then it would have been done. But the timetable was not mass168s, to be fair. The timetable came via the proposed revelation that spoke about that temple. That the temple wasn't built could very well mean God isn't so rigid about fulfilling his prophecies.

"ehhh...I'll support the prophet saying as much, but if circumstance ruins it, no biggie. I happens. I suppose I could tell that prophet to say it just like I'd like Him to, but I tried that and look what he intends to write anyway? Man, I hope these people figure out that these revelations contain errors and thus, while the spirit is from me, the letter can be a bit wrong. Oh well, better for them to figure that out, even though they are so prone to be instructed in all things."

Whatever the case, though, we're now stuck with having to build a temple in the middle of nowhere at some future date. I suppose once we do, we'll say, "see the prophecy is true". But if we were smart, we'd build it where people are who'll use it and say, "ah well, sometimes scripture is in error. What can we say?"

I think a lot of people take one of these approaches and are not too bothered by their conscience. I am not personally comfortable taking either. I think that when God says something will happen, it will, unless he "changes his mind." He is generally agreed upon as being the master of at least this world. I would go further and say the universe, but I won't open that can of worms. 

[JLHPROF]

I think a lot of people take one of these approaches and are not too bothered by their conscience. I am not personally comfortable taking either. I think that when God says something will happen, it will, unless he "changes his mind." He is generally agreed upon as being the master of at least this world. I would go further and say the universe, but I won't open that can of worms. 

 

Your "conscience" isn't really an issue where a revelation you don't accept called for the building of a temple that you don't accept by a group of religious followers you don't accept and then wasn't completed according to a timeline you don't accept.

 

Anymore than the actions of the pope trouble my conscience.

Oh, and God is absolutely the master of the universe (depending on how you define universe).

[mass168]

Your "conscience" isn't really an issue where a revelation you don't accept called for the building of a temple that you don't accept by a group of religious followers you don't accept and then wasn't completed according to a timeline you don't accept.

 

Anymore than the actions of the pope trouble my conscience.

Oh, and God is absolutely the master of the universe (depending on how you define universe).

Is this concept of fulfilled prophecy really that hard to grasp? If the timeline is from God, the revealed actions would have taken place. 

[JLHPROF]

Is this concept of fulfilled prophecy really that hard to grasp? If the timeline is from God, the revealed actions would have taken place. 

 

Not a prophecy.  Nope.

[ERayR]

Is this concept of fulfilled prophecy really that hard to grasp? If the timeline is from God, the revealed actions would have taken place. 

 

Really what is the problem?  You do not accept it as Prophecy anyway.

[mass168]

Really what is the problem? You do not accept it as Prophecy anyway.

The problem is that not very many people in the church truly care to hold the prophet accountable. That doesn't seem to be a very honest or even desirable way to live. If you have never heard of these kind of issues and considered them honestly, well then you get some kind of pass I guess. But like many people, it seems as though recognize this as some kind of issue, and yet you will do nothing with that information. I would accept this prophecy as genuine if it had come true, and all his other prophcies came true, etc.

[ERayR]

The problem is that not very many people in the church truly care to hold the prophet accountable. That doesn't seem to be a very honest or even desirable way to live. If you have never heard of these kind of issues and considered them honestly, well then you get some kind of pass I guess. But like many people, it seems as though recognize this as some kind of issue, and yet you will do nothing with that information. I would accept this prophecy as genuine if it had come true, and all his other prophcies came true, etc.

 

Holding the prophet accountable sounds like a pretty lofty calling, one way beyond my pay grade.  Are you saying it is your calling? 

 

If you do not believe what he says you do not have to bind yourself to it.  I have heard of the issue I just do not accept your interpretation of the facts and circumstances.

[mass168]

Holding the prophet accountable sounds like a pretty lofty calling, one way beyond my pay grade. Are you saying it is your calling?

If you do not believe what he says you do not have to bind yourself to it. I have heard of the issue I just do not accept your interpretation of the facts and circumstances.

You could call it "above your pay grade," or you could follow deuteronomy 18:18-22 and realize that is every members' God given duty to ask these kind of questions about the prophets.

You once told me to "be patient grasshopper." In other words you believe the part of the prophecy that says this temple will be there. Why do you not also believe the timeline? It is all out of the same scripture. Honest question. Why are you picking and choosing?

Edited January 13, 2015 by mass168

[JLHPROF]

You could call it "above your pay grade," or you could follow deuteronomy 18:18-22 and realize that is every members' God given duty to ask these kind of questions about the prophets.

You once told me to "be patient grasshopper." In other words you believe the part of the prophecy that says this temple will be there. Why do you not also believe the timeline? It is all out of the same scripture. Honest question. Why are you picking and choosing?

 

Actually the prophet answers to nobody except God.  Bottom line.  Our scriptures even teach that if the prophet loses the give of prophecy even for sin or transgression they STILL get to name their successor.

(Prevents all those sagebrush prophets from popping up).

 

So EVEN if Joseph made a false prophecy or committed some sin he still got to say (as he is recorded doing that Brigham Young would lead the Church.  There is only one man on the earth at any time who is anointed and appointed to the prophet's position.

 

Now you may dislike this.  You may disagree.  But you are not Mormon so why should you.  I don't agree with Buddhist doctrine but neither do I expect to.  My opinion should mean absolute 0 to Buddhists, just as evangelical opinion should mean absolute 0 to Mormons.

We're different religions.  And that's OK.

[JLHPROF]

This is also true about the redemption of Zion. Joseph led Zion's Camp to reclaim Independence but they stopped and Zion was not redeemed. It could be viewed as A) a failed prophesy or B)God's timeline changed, just like the building of the temple at Far West. If one chooses to view these instances as evidence that God's timeline changed, they must still accept that those things will take place because Zion has not been moved and the Far West temple in the Land of Zion will still be built.

 

Well since we expect to gather back to Jackson County and build the New Jerusalem one day I think I'm very good with B.

[Calm]

The problem is that not very many people in the church truly care to hold the prophet accountable. That doesn't seem to be a very honest or even desirable way to live. If you have never heard of these kind of issues and considered them honestly, well then you get some kind of pass I guess. But like many people, it seems as though recognize this as some kind of issue, and yet you will do nothing with that information. I would accept this prophecy as genuine if it had come true, and all his other prophcies came true, etc.

Thank you for calling the majority of LDS dishonest.

Sometimes people just see things differently. Doesn't mean there is an ounce of dishonesty or laziness or anything bad about it. Different experiences in life lead to different world views on how things work.

Edited January 13, 2015 by calmoriah