Far West Mo Temple Commandment (Or Prophecy) Retracted?

[JAHS]

I haven't read everything but I am sure that someone has already stated that Section 115 was not a prophecy. It was simply a command that God gave to the saints that they were not able to comply with; at least not at this time. It not being built stands as a witness against those who persecuted the saints and ran them out before they could build it. God will have this evidence against them come judgment day. He allows all men their agency to fight against the church if they so choose. 

There are a lot of prophesies in the D&C but many of the revelations are simply doctrines, instructions, or commands from God. The fulfilling of those commandments depends on the faithfulness of the saints and other outside forces or people that will not be denied their agency. 

[Avatar4321]

It's amazing that people will make a mountain out of a molehill foe this revelation and yet completely ignore the revelation on wars.

[mass168]

Actually the prophet answers to nobody except God. Bottom line. Our scriptures even teach that if the prophet loses the give of prophecy even for sin or transgression they STILL get to name their successor.

(Prevents all those sagebrush prophets from popping up).

So EVEN if Joseph made a false prophecy or committed some sin he still got to say (as he is recorded doing that Brigham Young would lead the Church. There is only one man on the earth at any time who is anointed and appointed to the prophet's position.

Now you may dislike this. You may disagree. But you are not Mormon so why should you. I don't agree with Buddhist doctrine but neither do I expect to. My opinion should mean absolute 0 to Buddhists, just as evangelical opinion should mean absolute 0 to Mormons.

We're different religions. And that's OK.

The bible is one of your scriptures, no? How do you feel about what Deuteronomy 18 says with regard to prophets?

[mass168]

Thank you for calling the majority of LDS dishonest.

Sometimes people just see things differently. Doesn't mean there is an ounce of dishonesty or laziness or anything bad about it. Different experiences in life lead to different world views on how things work.

I apologize for not backing down on this subject. It's just that I see a clear timeline directly from the scripture, and no one is addressing it directly. A lot of generalities and assertions that the temple will be there eventually are all I have seen. That is very frustrating.

[JLHPROF]

The bible is one of your scriptures, no? How do you feel about what Deuteronomy 18 says with regard to prophets?

 

I'm assuming you mean:

¹⁸ I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

¹⁹ And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

²⁰ But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

²¹ And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?

²² When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

 

 

I agree with it.   It still doesn't give me or any other man the right to remove him from his office or calling.  The scripture says nothing about his calling as a prophet being at an end.  And it meshes absolutely perfectly with D&C 43:

 

 

3 And this ye shall know assuredly—that there is none other appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations until he be taken, if he abide in me.

4 But verily, verily, I say unto you, that none else shall be appointed unto this gift except it be through him; for if it be taken from him he shall not have power except to appoint another in his stead.

5 And this shall be a law unto you, that ye receive not the teachings of any that shall come before you as revelations or commandments;

 

 

 

It says that a prophecy that comes to pass is from the Lord and a prophecy that doesn't is from the man.  Neither causes him to be cast out and he still holds his authority.  And even IF Joseph lost the gift of prophecy (which he didn't) it just means that he gets to name a successor prophet.

 

And neither applies to D&C 115 which was, say it with me, "NOT  A PROPHECY".

Gosh, how is this hard to understand.

[mass168]

I'm assuming you mean:

I agree with it. It still doesn't give me or any other man the right to remove him from his office or calling. The scripture says nothing about his calling as a prophet being at an end. And it meshes absolutely perfectly with D&C 43:

It says that a prophecy that comes to pass is from the Lord and a prophecy that doesn't is from the man. Neither causes him to be cast out and he still holds his authority. And even IF Joseph lost the gift of prophecy (which he didn't) it just means that he gets to name a successor prophet.

And neither applies to D&C 115 which was, say it with me, "NOT A PROPHECY".

Gosh, how is this hard to understand.

Dictionary definition time again.

"Something that is declared by a prophet, especially a divinely inspired prediction, instruction, or exhortation."

Say it with me, "D&C 115 is a prophecy."

Verse 1 claims it is a revelation from the Lord. So then you have made Smith a liar of the worst sort with your explanation. Claiming to speak for God and not really doing so is kind of a big deal. Keep digging your hole.

Edited January 13, 2015 by mass168

[Stargazer]

Dictionary definition time again.

"Something that is declared by a prophet, especially a divinely inspired prediction, instruction, or exhortation."

Say it with me, "D&C 115 is a prophecy."

Verse 1 claims it is a revelation from the Lord. So then you have made Smith a liar of the worst sort with your explanation. Claiming to speak for God and not really doing so is kind of a big deal. Keep digging your hole.

 

There is no hole being dug here, except for the one you are digging for yourself.

 

If you want to insist upon the definition you gave above, then let's consider how many times prophets in Israel exhorted the Israelites to repent of their sins, and the Israelites in question not only did not repent, but attempted to kill the prophets for daring to calling attention to their sins.

 

By YOUR logic, then, the prophets in question were prophesying repentance, and since nobody would repent, the prophets must fail as prophets and are apostate.  Does that make any sense to you? 

 

The Lord gave the Church a command to perform a task.  The Church was unable to complete the task - it doesn't matter why. 

 

By the way, do you actually believe 1 Nephi 3:7?  Or are you hauling it out just because we believe it and you want to use it to beat us with?  And if you don't believe 1 Nephi 3:7, do you on the other hand believe that God gives commands that He knows we cannot obey?  Either the principle of the verse is true (making at least one thing in the Book of Mormon true, by the way), or it isn't true, and God DOES give impossible commands.

 

It is at this point that Jesus's admonition to us to be as perfect as Father in Heaven (in Matthew) comes to mind.  Was that an impossible command?  Or merely one that would take a good long time?  I know that most orthodox Christians don't believe that God gave His children the ability to ever become like Him, so maybe Jesus was just delighting in pestering people with unfulfillable commands.  And if it were unfulfillable, then Jesus, who was surely a prophet, was making a prophecy that could not be fulfilled.  Therefore, his prophecy fails, and he is not a prophet.  How does that sound?

 

Before you get indignant, please note carefully that I know who Jesus is, and I know He is the Son of God and the sole source of my salvation.  And no prophecy of His could ever fail.  I'm just wondering where you stand on the eisegesis of scripture?

[JAHS]

Dictionary definition time again.

"Something that is declared by a prophet, especially a divinely inspired prediction, instruction, or exhortation."

Say it with me, "D&C 115 is a prophecy."

Verse 1 claims it is a revelation from the Lord. So then you have made Smith a liar of the worst sort with your explanation. Claiming to speak for God and not really doing so is kind of a big deal. Keep digging your hole.

OK how about this,  it can be called a prophecy defined as being instruction OR exhortation, but not as a prediction of something that must happen. The problem is that when most people hear the word "prophecy" they immediately assume that it is a prediction of the future. That is not the case here.

[ERayR]

Dictionary definition time again.

"Something that is declared by a prophet, especially a divinely inspired prediction, instruction, or exhortation."

Say it with me, "D&C 115 is a prophecy."

Verse 1 claims it is a revelation from the Lord. So then you have made Smith a liar of the worst sort with your explanation. Claiming to speak for God and not really doing so is kind of a big deal. Keep digging your hole.

 

Whoa hoss lets analyze this:

 

7 Let the city, Far West, be a holy and consecrated land unto me; and it shall be called most holy, for the ground upon which thou standest is holy.

 

No problem Far West is/was a great place.

 

8 Therefore, I command you to build a house unto me, for the gathering together of my saints, that they may worship me.

 

Saint are to build a house to worship God.  Not explicitly a temple it could refer to a chapel/meeting house.

 

9 And let there be a beginning of this work, and a foundation, and a preparatory work, this following summer;

 

Prep work and foundation to begin the following summer.

 

10 And let the beginning be made on the fourth day of July next; and from that time forth let my people labor diligently to build a house unto my name;

 

Work to begin on July 4th to build a house unto his name.  Not explicitly a temple, could be a meeting house.

 

11 And in one year from this day let them re-commence laying the foundation of my house.

 

Let them re-commence(probably after winter suspension of work) with the foundation.

 

12 Thus let them from that time forth labor diligently until it shall be finished, from the cornerstone thereof unto the top thereof, until there shall not anything remain that is not finished.

 

Labor diligently until finished.  No completion date set.  (Church could be faulted on the diligently clause but then there are not that many members in far west)

 

13 Verily I say unto you, let not my servant Joseph, neither my servant Sidney, neither my servant Hyrum, get in debt any more for the building of a house unto my name;

 

Stay out of any additional debt.  (Very good )

 

14 But let a house be built unto my name according to the pattern which I will show unto them.

 

Build it per revealed pattern.

 

15 And if my people build it not according to the pattern which I shall show unto their presidency, I will not accept it at their hands.

 

Do it per revealed plan or it will be rejected.

 

16 But if my people do build it according to the pattern which I shall show unto their presidency, even my servant Joseph and his counselors, then I will accept it at the hands of my people.

 

Build per plan, all okay.

 

17 And again, verily I say unto you, it is my will that the city of Far West should be built up speedily by the gathering of my saints;

 

Build up city speedily by making it a gathering place.

 

18 And also that other places should be appointed for stakes in the regions round about, as they shall be manifested unto my servant Joseph, from time to time.

 

Also gather in other places.

 

19 For behold, I will be with him, and I will sanctify him before the people; for unto him have I given the keys of this kingdom and ministry. Even so. Amen.

 

Where in that is a completion date for the Far West temple?

[HappyJackWagon]

 

8 Therefore, I command you to build a house unto me, for the gathering together of my saints, that they may worship me.

 

 

Saint are to build a house to worship God.  Not explicitly a temple it could refer to a chapel/meeting house.

Not explicitely but clearly understood to be a temple. To believe otherwise we would need to believe Joseph and the apostles were all wrong about their interpretation of the revelation. Also, the church didn't build "meeting houses" or chapels in those days. The House of the Lord was clearly the temple.

 

The revelation may not give a completion date but it clearly gave a start date and a commencement time period. Obviously if these things had happened the temple would have been completed prior to January 2015

[ERayR]

Not explicitely but clearly understood to be a temple. To believe otherwise we would need to believe Joseph and the apostles were all wrong about their interpretation of the revelation. Also, the church didn't build "meeting houses" or chapels in those days. The House of the Lord was clearly the temple.

 

The revelation may not give a completion date but it clearly gave a start date and a commencement time period. Obviously if these things had happened the temple would have been completed prior to January 2015

 

I am not arguing as to how it has been interpreted. 

 

Unforeseen construction delays can be lengthy.  And without a clear completion date it can not be said to be a failed prophecy.  Indeed it is not a prophecy at all but is a commandment the saints of Far West failed to keep.

[HappyJackWagon]

I am not arguing as to how it has been interpreted. 

 

Unforeseen construction delays can be lengthy.  And without a clear completion date it can not be said to be a failed prophecy.  Indeed it is not a prophecy at all but is a commandment the saints of Far West failed to keep.

I agree it is a commandment, not a prophecy.

 

Man, that is one heck of a construction delay

[ERayR]

I agree it is a commandment, not a prophecy.

 

Man, that is one heck of a construction delay

 

Labor problems can be a bear.

[mass168]

Is this even a prophecy? I am asserting that it is. The time for work to continue (without ceasing) on the temple was specified down to the year and day. That is a prediction given directly from the Lord, and a therefore a prophecy. I have never seen anywhere in the Bible where God reveals something down to the year and day, and then it did not come to pass (EXCLUDING cases with further clarification/revocation, such as in the case of Jonah and Nineveh). A general statement about how the OT prophets cried repentance, and then it didn't happen is a false comparison. There were never specific dates given that I have seen (show me where I'm wrong with references). Likewise, calling Christ's exhortation to "be perfect" a false prophecy, is not a valid comparison to D&C 115.

[mass168]

There is no hole being dug here, except for the one you are digging for yourself.

 

If you want to insist upon the definition you gave above, then let's consider how many times prophets in Israel exhorted the Israelites to repent of their sins, and the Israelites in question not only did not repent, but attempted to kill the prophets for daring to calling attention to their sins.

 

By YOUR logic, then, the prophets in question were prophesying repentance, and since nobody would repent, the prophets must fail as prophets and are apostate.  Does that make any sense to you? 

 

The Lord gave the Church a command to perform a task.  The Church was unable to complete the task - it doesn't matter why. 

 

By the way, do you actually believe 1 Nephi 3:7?  Or are you hauling it out just because we believe it and you want to use it to beat us with?  And if you don't believe 1 Nephi 3:7, do you on the other hand believe that God gives commands that He knows we cannot obey?  Either the principle of the verse is true (making at least one thing in the Book of Mormon true, by the way), or it isn't true, and God DOES give impossible commands.

 

It is at this point that Jesus's admonition to us to be as perfect as Father in Heaven (in Matthew) comes to mind.  Was that an impossible command?  Or merely one that would take a good long time?  I know that most orthodox Christians don't believe that God gave His children the ability to ever become like Him, so maybe Jesus was just delighting in pestering people with unfulfillable commands.  And if it were unfulfillable, then Jesus, who was surely a prophet, was making a prophecy that could not be fulfilled.  Therefore, his prophecy fails, and he is not a prophet.  How does that sound?

 

Before you get indignant, please note carefully that I know who Jesus is, and I know He is the Son of God and the sole source of my salvation.  And no prophecy of His could ever fail.  I'm just wondering where you stand on the eisegesis of scripture?

No, I don't hold the BOM to be true. My comment about 1 Nephi 3:7 was simply meant to say that if I did believe it to be true, how in the world would I accept the excuses that everyone makes for why the temple isn't there? How does it make you feel, that the temple site has been sitting gathering dust since 1909? Does that give you confidence in the people in charge? 

Edited January 14, 2015 by mass168

[JLHPROF]

Is this even a prophecy? I am asserting that it is.

 

 

It's not.  A prophecy would be "in the year 1840 a mighty temple in Far West Missouri will be completed and raised unto the Lord (if Joseph were speaking) or unto me (if the Lord were speaking through) Joseph."  If it then failed to happen the it would be a failed prophecy.

 

An prophecy tells of things that will come to pass (although sometimes the expressions of timing like "generation" don't mean what we think they do.

 

A command (which can be revoked) is not a prophecy, and they are sometimes revoked by the circumstances the Lord places one in.  For example, if the Lord commanded me to become a ballet star and the next month I got into a car wreck and had both my legs removed, well, I would say the Lord revoked that commandment with or without any revelation.

 

In the end you are not so subtly trying to imply that this is a failed prophecy of Joseph Smith.  There is not a single Church member that will agree with you because:

1. It wasn't a prophecy

2. The timeline of the commandment was contingent on saints being gathered to Far West

3. The Lord can revoke through circumstance as easily as revelation.

 

You say it troubles you, but we both know that a revelation you don't believe in doesn't trouble in the least when it isn't fulfilled in your eyes.  It makes you a little warm inside because you incorrectly think it shows Joseph to be a false prophet.

And that is what you call a spade.

[mass168]

It's not.  A prophecy would be "in the year 1840 a mighty temple in Far West Missouri will be completed and raised unto the Lord (if Joseph were speaking) or unto me (if the Lord were speaking through) Joseph."  If it then failed to happen the it would be a failed prophecy.

That is basically what it says! All I have to do is change a couple words. "On July 4th 1840, work should continue on the temple and not stop until it is completed." How are you not seeing this? The work stopped. Not once, but twice, after they did the beautification. The revelation said the work shouldn't stop, it did, without further clarification. God explains in Deuteronomy 18 that he does not work in a manner similar to your ballet star example. He gives clarification when it is required, else how would we ever be able to stay sane wondering about prophets? 

Edited January 14, 2015 by mass168

[Calm]

" All I have to do is change a couple words"

And adding a "not" to a sentence, changing just one word, can cause a sentence to mean the opposite.

The Lord said we should forgive all men. When we forgive all but five, is this a failed prophecy of the Lord's?

Edited January 15, 2015 by calmoriah

[mass168]

" All I have to do is change a couple words"

And adding a "not" to a sentence, changing just one word, can cause a sentence to mean the opposite.

Seriously??  Having work on the temple "not stop" after July 4th 1840, is substantially the same as saying it should be done by now, and you know it. 

[Calm]

He is telling them what to do, not predicting how they will behave.

When God says you should not lie and you do, is that a failed prophecy? Or you should help widows and the poor and you ignore the homeless?

(you is generic)

Please feel free to continue to accuse me of lying, that would at least stop a conversation that appears to be going nowhere...as typically happens when others insist they know better what someone believes than they do themselves.

Edited January 15, 2015 by calmoriah

[mass168]

He is telling them what to do, not predicting how they will behave.

When God says you should not lie and you do, is that a failed prophecy? Or you should help widows and the poor and you ignore the homeless?

(you is generic)

Which of his revelations do you consider prophecies then? Any of them? 

[Calm]

I tend to avoid engaging with individuals who insist they know better what I believe or who accuse me of lying as I find it unproductive, so dont expect to see me in at least this conversation again...at least until it has gone on long enough I forget your tendencies to refuse to allow someone to create their own dialogue.

Edited January 15, 2015 by calmoriah

[Avatar4321]

Which of his revelations do you consider prophecies then? Any of them?

the ones that testify of Christ

[mass168]

I tend to avoid engaging with individuals who insist they know better what I believe or who accuse me of lying as I find it unproductive, so dont expect to see me in at least this conversation again...at least until it has gone on long enough I forget your tendencies to refuse to allow someone to create their own dialogue.

What are you talking about, that was continuing your "dialogue." You refuse to explain why something called for down to the day is somehow not a prediction or a prophecy. 

[mass168]

When God says you should not lie and you do, is that a failed prophecy? Or you should help widows and the poor and you ignore the homeless?

(you is generic)

THESE, are commands.