stemelbow Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 (edited) "truth will prevail" is everyone's chant. No matter where we reside in terms of faith, we all claim it. People who leave the Church often claim that they merely embraced truth and for honesty reasons had to leave. Good for them. But many learn the same stuff and remain. "Mental gymnastics, twisted logic...that's all they got", the critic says condescendingly. "but I still love my family, no matter how dumb they are". Who wants their brother or mom running around saying stuff like that behind their back? I know I don't. What's tiring to hear these days, and I hear these a lot: 1. the internet is destroying the Church--access to information is uncovering and exposing the Church. 2. the Church deceived me for so long but I learned the truth, implying some sort of brainwashing or something. 3. "apologists" are bad because they have presented arguments that I don't like, and we are all justified in giving anyone who can be in any way associated with defending their faith a bad name. 4. The Church is hurting people. I get critical as many of you may see, but this type of drawing lines and setting up sides is annoying. I say if you don't believe the Church carries truth anymore, good for you. I'd even say God may want you to tread an unheard of path. You may be genuine in your pursuit. but stop getting condescending and rude to me just cause I remain. You may, in fact, be smarter than me, whatever that means, but there's no need to gloat over it. There may, in fact, be plenty in the Church smarter than you, and it's just as wrong for them to gloat over it. Just because Joseph Smith married tons of women and girls, as young as 14 for crying aloud, doesn't mean Jesus didn't sacrifice for mankind, the priesthood wasn't restored and all that. We can still believe, you boneheads. Dummies, the Church is not going anywhere any time soon. It may lose members, various amounts in various ways, over different periods of time. But don't count it out. It's here. I meant the name-calling playfully. I sympathize with those who leave. I do. But I tire of things and feel to rant. Please take this lovingly, particularly if you disagree. Edited November 24, 2014 by stemelbow 4
Thinking Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 I say if you don't believe the Church carries truth anymore, good for you. I'd even say God may want you to tread an unheard of path. You may be genuine in your pursuit. but stop getting condescending and rude to me just cause I remain. You may, in fact, be smarter than me, whatever that means, but there's no need to gloat over it. There may, in fact, be plenty in the Church smarter than you, and it's just as wrong for them to gloat over it.Just because Joseph Smith married tons of women and girls, as young as 14 for crying aloud, doesn't mean Jesus didn't sacrifice for mankind, the priesthood wasn't restored and all that. We can still believe, you boneheads.Dummies, the Church is not going anywhere any time soon. It may lose members, various amounts in various ways, over different periods of time. But don't count it out. It's here. I give this thread less than 24 hours before it's shut down. 1
stemelbow Posted November 24, 2014 Author Posted November 24, 2014 I give this thread less than 24 hours before it's shut down. Put me down for 2. 1
Popular Post bluebell Posted November 24, 2014 Popular Post Posted November 24, 2014 I have recently experienced this same thing stemelbow, especially from one facebookbfriend (an old missionary companion) who has left the church over this and a couple other issues. Her hero is now john dehlin. I'm sick of hearing about cognitive dissonance, and about how anyone who doesn't leave the church after reading the essays is either brainwashed or immoral. The main reactions by some ex Mormons seem to be either gloating over dumb Mormons finally learning the horrible truth or anger that people are now learning the info that ended their own testimony but aren't reacting the "right" way to it. 7
Kenngo1969 Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 I've said this on the Board numerous times, about several related topics: to borrow and slightly alter something first said by Steven R. Covey, we don't see "truth"/the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as it is; we see it as we are. 3
Buzzard Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 I have come to feel that one of the spiritual gifts we receive is the gift of belief. I am grateful that I received this gift at a young age, and no matter what adversity I have faced, or disappointment I have encountered, that knowledge/belief has never left me.Just as some of us struggle with other temptations, bad habits, or shortcomings, I wonder if some of those who leave simply struggle with belief. And for those who do struggle but retain their testimony and continue to embrace the church, they will probably get more credit for that struggle at the last day than people like myself for whom obtaining and retaining a testimony came more easily. 1
pogi Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 (edited) And for those who do struggle but retain their testimony and continue to embrace the church, they will probably get more credit for that struggle at the last day... Either that or they will burn in hell, or they will simply cease to exist. Those seem to be the prevalent beliefs out there. I can with near certainly rule out the first. If the second is true...oh well, I had a good ride and enjoyed my time in the Church. I am waging my bet on "more credit." Edit: I should add, I am not gambling with my salvation. It is more of an educated (by the spirit) guess. Edited November 24, 2014 by pogi
why me Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 I have recently experienced this same thing stemelbow, especially from one facebookbfriend (an old missionary companion) who has left the church over this and a couple other issues. Her hero is now john dehlin.I'm sick of hearing about cognitive dissonance, and about how anyone who doesn't leave the church after reading the essays is either brainwashed or immoral.The main reactions by some ex Mormons seem to be either gloating over dumb Mormons finally learning the horrible truth or anger that people are now learning the info that ended their own testimony but aren't reacting the "right" way to it.Unfortunately, these people who leave also begin to deny their spiritual experiences when they were members. How they can do this is amazing. How can John Dehlin be anyone's hero is also amazing. 2
stemelbow Posted November 24, 2014 Author Posted November 24, 2014 Unfortunately, these people who leave also begin to deny their spiritual experiences when they were members. I don't begrudge people that. At one point, it is said, that Joseph too denied his spiritual experience as it pertained to selling the copyright to the Book of Mormon. The methods used for spiritual experiences is not fool proof...nah...not at all. How they can do this is amazing. Quite the opposite, if ya ask me. It's amazing that our spiritual experiences remain impactful for us after many years. How can John Dehlin be anyone's hero is also amazing. That was useless and came out of nowhere. I'm sure his kids, for instance, would feel pretty offended by this sentence. Perhaps they look up to him for reasons you simply don't know.
The Nehor Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 "truth will prevail" is everyone's chant. When used in a religious context it makes some sense in that truth will ultimately prevail at some future date. Outside of that context it is meaningless. Falsehood often prevails for both long and short periods. When people are winning a battle they love to chant that as if their victory was foreordained by being on the side of right. When they are losing the motto suddenly vanishes for some reason.
Thinking Posted November 25, 2014 Posted November 25, 2014 Unfortunately, these people who leave also begin to deny their spiritual experiences when they were members. How they can do this is amazing. How can John Dehlin be anyone's hero is also amazing. Reinterpret is the word I would use.
LinuxGal Posted November 25, 2014 Posted November 25, 2014 I've said this on the Board numerous times, about several related topics: to borrow and slightly alter something first said by Steven R. Covey, we don't see "truth"/the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as it is; we see it as we are. No one at any time believes they are not in the truth, otherwise they'd drop what they were doing and go find the truth. This applies to king-men and freemen.
strappinglad Posted November 25, 2014 Posted November 25, 2014 As has been said, truth, in the end, will prevail, but if history and scripture have taught us anything , it is that knowledge and truth are constantly being lost and must be rediscovered or restored.
Avatar4321 Posted November 25, 2014 Posted November 25, 2014 All the more reason to read the Book of Mormon. So truth can flood our minds
Kenngo1969 Posted November 25, 2014 Posted November 25, 2014 No one at any time believes they are not in the truth, otherwise they'd drop what they were doing and go find the truth. This applies to king-men and freemen."Ye shall know them by their fruits." One cannot gather grapes of thorns or figs of thistles. If you are part of a belief system that be ars good fruit in your life, I congratulate you; I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints because that's where I believe I can find the most bounteous harvest of good fruit. For more of my thoughts along these lines, see here: https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2012/04/16/toward-interreligious-oneness/ 1
Calm Posted November 25, 2014 Posted November 25, 2014 (edited) " At one point, it is said, that Joseph too denied his spiritual experience as it pertained to selling the copyright to the Book of Mormon." Sorry if this is somewhat off topic, but I think you may need an update on the copyright story, if you mean the alleged quote that some revelations are of the wrong spirit…this is from David Whitmer who was not a participant of the effort, had left the Church way before and is contradicted by recently published information: http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Attempt_to_sell_copyright This is not to say that JS might never deny a spiritual experience, just that this event isn't actually good evidence that he did. Edited November 25, 2014 by calmoriah
sjdawg Posted November 25, 2014 Posted November 25, 2014 I think there is too much criticism from both sides. I don't believe in the LDS church but I have no desire to convince my believing family or friends to abandon a path that is making them happy. There are some "facts" about LDS church history that are well known to both sides. We know it is a fact that polygamy was practiced; we know young girls were married to Joseph Smith. I have an opinion about the motivations behind practice of polygamy but that is all it is...a personal opinion. If my friends and family want to have a different opinion about the motivations behind some historical "facts" then who am I to judge? Whatever path they choose I hope my family and friends find happiness - inside the LDS church or outside of it. 2
rockpond Posted November 25, 2014 Posted November 25, 2014 I think there is too much criticism from both sides. I agree... I think more empathy is required of BOTH sides. 1
Mystery Meat Posted November 25, 2014 Posted November 25, 2014 I agree... I think more empathy is required of BOTH sides. I agree and it's something I could do a lot better at. It is really easy to get frustrated by the arrogant claims of cognitive dissonance, mental gymnastics and simple naivete from the other side. However, I am sure they are just as provoked by some of the charges that are thrown their way as well. I doubt the cycle will end anytime soon. I know I wont be perfect at it either, but I am trying.
rockpond Posted November 25, 2014 Posted November 25, 2014 I agree and it's something I could do a lot better at. It is really easy to get frustrated by the arrogant claims of cognitive dissonance, mental gymnastics and simple naivete from the other side. However, I am sure they are just as provoked by some of the charges that are thrown their way as well. I doubt the cycle will end anytime soon. I know I wont be perfect at it either, but I am trying. Yes, from where I sit, there is hurting on both sides. In some of the most devastating cases, it's happening between husband and wife. It would be awesome if we could come together and find a way to alleviate that pain for all involved. I'm curious, from your perspective, what do church members mean when they claim to feel cognitive dissonance?
stemelbow Posted November 25, 2014 Author Posted November 25, 2014 " At one point, it is said, that Joseph too denied his spiritual experience as it pertained to selling the copyright to the Book of Mormon." Sorry if this is somewhat off topic, but I think you may need an update on the copyright story, if you mean the alleged quote that some revelations are of the wrong spirit…this is from David Whitmer who was not a participant of the effort, had left the Church way before and is contradicted by recently published information: http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Attempt_to_sell_copyright This is not to say that JS might never deny a spiritual experience, just that this event isn't actually good evidence that he did. Well shoot. I must have forgotten this. But I still claim the means of spiritual experience is not fool proof.
thesometimesaint Posted November 25, 2014 Posted November 25, 2014 Yes, from where I sit, there is hurting on both sides. In some of the most devastating cases, it's happening between husband and wife. It would be awesome if we could come together and find a way to alleviate that pain for all involved. I'm curious, from your perspective, what do church members mean when they claim to feel cognitive dissonance? Cognitive dissonance has become the catchphrase of the day. It simply means having the ability to have two competing ideas at the same time, or what we normally call nuance.
tonie Posted November 25, 2014 Posted November 25, 2014 Of mental gymnastics and cognative dissonance; is either claim unfounded? Should we feel "ashamed" or any negative thought of ourselves, for mental gymnastics or cognative dissonance? I understand cog. diss. is one hold opposing views. Thout shall not kill, unless God commands it. God commanded Nephi to kill Laban, therefore Nephi did not violate "Thou shall not kill".Alternatively, Nephi didn't violate "Thou shall not kill" because he was justified under Hebrew customs/norms/oral tradition or which ever. A Prophet speaks for God, only when the Prophet is not speaking as a man.
rockpond Posted November 25, 2014 Posted November 25, 2014 Cognitive dissonance has become the catchphrase of the day. It simply means having the ability to have two competing ideas at the same time, or what we normally call nuance. Two competing ideas is half of the definition. Merriam-Webster defines cognitive dissonance as: "psychological conflict resulting from incongruous beliefs and attitudes held simultaneously". I think that "psychological conflict" is an important part to remember. The stress of "cog dis" during my faith crisis was rough and still is at times. It was made worse because I didn't want to discuss it with my wife for fear of causing the same difficulties for her. That's why I asked the question of lvjd66... s/he identified cognitive dissonance as an "arrogant claim" which led me to wonder how s/he interprets the statement of somehow saying they are experiencing cog dis.
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