Truth Prevails Over The Church

[The Nehor]

Yes I actualky recognized you were quoting the Truman Madsen story, But Hugh Brown still did say what he needed to learn. My answer to your question is Abraham learned nothing or gained nothing he could not have gained in a less cruel and brutal way.

I think it is less learning about himself and more a change in himself. If all this life teaches us is lessons about ourselves then it is unnecessary. If it changes us it is vital. God may know how I would react on my missions but I could only become my post-mission self by enduring the experience

How do you know there was a less brutal way of Abraham proving and perfecting himself? You don't even know the man while God knew him perfectly. Abraham himself probably did not fully understand the experience and why it was necessary and what it accomplished. He may not know until the final judgement.

[JLHPROF]

Well I guess that is the best you can do when someone doesn't simply accept your a priori religious assertions outright.

The post i responded to was simply that. You refer to characters out of the bible one of which certainly was mythical and the others historicity is in question to make your point. I did not originate those arguments. Scholars much smarter than I am did.

You then quote unique LDS scripture which attempts to explain trials, which is fine but then add your own spin and claim God will try us to thbe core adding Hollands quip to that.

I think I a made a rational post and asked you some challenging questions about trials and how is there a benefit in the trials of starving children or children who are violently abused.

Why the flippant response?

 

No, I referred to the principles God teaches us from the characters out of the scriptures (whether real or ficticious is irrelevant).  If you believe the scriptures are the word of God, then the principles taught therein are that God requires man to be tried/tested and to overcome to achieve exaltation.

Whether Abraham, Job or anyone else in the Bible was real is beside the point of debate.  Their stories are there because God requires sacrifice, starting with Adam all the way down to Christ and beyond.  Joseph had it 100% right when he said without sacrifice we don't produce enough faith in God to become like him.  That is the key point.  No test/trial/sacrifice = no faith.  No faith, no exaltation achieved.  Reward/punishment has nothing to do with it.

 

If you don't believe the scriptures, then why would I waste time debating someone who believes God will only do nice things to them and hand them exaltation on a silver platter.

 

Exaltation is earned (salvation is another story).  And the tests to receive that blessing are absolute.

[Teancum]

I think it is less learning about himself and more a change in himself. If all this life teaches us is lessons about ourselves then it is unnecessary. If it changes us it is vital. God may know how I would react on my missions but I could only become my post-mission self by enduring the experience

How do you know there was a less brutal way of Abraham proving and perfecting himself? You don't even know the man while God knew him perfectly. Abraham himself probably did not fully understand the experience and why it was necessary and what it accomplished. He may not know until the final judgement.

I don't know in more or less than you know. I gave my opinion when asked.

How do you know Abraham was a real person and not a myth?

[LinuxGal]

How do you know Abraham was a real person and not a myth?

 

Abraham means "exalted father" in the proto-Semitic language that became Arabic and Hebrew.  Abram means "father".  Nobody names their newborn baby boy "Father".  So the character is a myth, although somebody like him, with a different name, might have wandered in Canaan with a retinue of three hundred souls and much livestock, and he might have called his deity El Shaddai, as indicated in Exodus.

[Teancum]

No, I referred to the principles God teaches us from the characters out of the scriptures (whether real or ficticious is irrelevant).  If you believe the scriptures are the word of God, then the principles taught therein are that God requires man to be tried/tested and to overcome to achieve exaltation.

Whether Abraham, Job or anyone else in the Bible was real is beside the point of debate.  Their stories are there because God requires sacrifice, starting with Adam all the way down to Christ and beyond.  Joseph had it 100% right when he said without sacrifice we don't produce enough faith in God to become like him.  That is the key point.  No test/trial/sacrifice = no faith.  No faith, no exaltation achieved.  Reward/punishment has nothing to do with it.

 

If you don't believe the scriptures, then why would I waste time debating someone who believes God will only do nice things to them and hand them exaltation on a silver platter.

 

Exaltation is earned (salvation is another story).  And the tests to receive that blessing are absolute.

You are putting words into my mouth about what i believe about God, trials and exaltation. I think trials and tribulations can have a place in molding, shaping and helping us develop the divine attributes. They can also break us.

But as I noted above, and you choose to ignore, some trials go beyind the pale of reason. I gave a few examples. In addition I simply reject trials created by humans to test loyalty like JS did. That has nothing to do with faith and salvation. Rather that was about power and control and testing loyalty and fealty to a group leader. There was nothing godly about it. There was everything cult like about it.

Why would you debate someone who questions the validity of scripture? Well if you care about them you would try to debate a skeptic because you may want to demonstrate that they are valid, rational, coherent, consistent and so on and that they are compelling arguments and proof of God rather than perhaps the opposite or some thing else.

The scriptures wrangle all over the place about and for the reasons for trials and tribulations in life one only of which is the one that seems to be your favorite that of a rest for exaltation. I recommend the book God's Problem by Bart Ehrman if you are interested in a discussion of such things. But if you only want someone who beleives the scriptures like you do then just pass on it. The book won't be an echo chamber for you.

[The Nehor]

I don't know in more or less than you know. I gave my opinion when asked.

How do you know Abraham was a real person and not a myth?

Because Jesus said so.

[LinuxGal]

Because Jesus said so.

 

Jesus also said Noah was real, and compared his time to ours.

[The Nehor]

Jesus also said Noah was real, and compared his time to ours.

Yes, and that is the primary reason I believe Noah is real.