Truth Prevails Over The Church

[Silhouette]

I have come to feel that one of the spiritual gifts we receive is the gift of belief. I am grateful that I received this gift at a young age, and no matter what adversity I have faced, or disappointment I have encountered, that knowledge/belief has never left me.

Just as some of us struggle with other temptations, bad habits, or shortcomings, I wonder if some of those who leave simply struggle with belief. And for those who do struggle but retain their testimony and continue to embrace the church, they will probably get more credit for that struggle at the last day than people like myself for whom obtaining and retaining a testimony came more easily.

Very true. I received a direct, personal revelation about which church to join when I prayed about it at the age of 15. I mean, a voice actually spoke to me and told me to call the Mormon Church. I'd never heard of a Mormon before that, except to know that the Osmonds were Mormons.

To quote Joseph Smith after his First Vision, " I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it."

I've not always been active, and not always done what I knew was right during my sojourn in the Church, and I have questioned some things. But my questions have always been genuine, and were borne out of the desire to learn. Not in the spirit of criticism.

I've always known that any failings in my faith, and any shortcomings in maintaining Gospel principles, stemmed from something lacking in ME, and have had nothing to do with the Gospel teachings.

There are things I do not understand, yes. And in my desire to know more, I have come across some things that I would disapprove of if I applied my own mortal understanding. But I have faith that the things I don't understand will be clarified when all is said and done. So I persevere. I battle through doubt until I find the "peace that passeth understanding".

I fervently hope that I will always have the spiritual gift of belief. It has sustained me through many trials and has saved me from myself more times than I can count.

[bluebell]

Two competing ideas is half of the definition. Merriam-Webster defines cognitive dissonance as: "psychological conflict resulting from incongruous beliefs and attitudes held simultaneously".

I think that "psychological conflict" is an important part to remember. The stress of "cog dis" during my faith crisis was rough and still is at times. It was made worse because I didn't want to discuss it with my wife for fear of causing the same difficulties for her.

That's why I asked the question of lvjd66... s/he identified cognitive dissonance as an "arrogant claim" which led me to wonder how s/he interprets the statement of somehow saying they are experiencing cog dis.

I can't speak for lvjd but when I've had the term cog dis hurled at me it's been in the form of an arrogant accusation-something that I suffered from because I was not as enlightened as the accuser.

Such as when I stated that whether or not fanny Alger was merely an affair or considered to be a polygamous wife of JS was debatable (as she had expressed it was a fact that Alger was never JS's polygamous wife) and her reply was that any discomfort and disagreement I was feeling over what she was saying was me suffering from cog dis.

Interestingly enough, once I stated that I was very aware of what cog dis was and its popularity right now in the ex mormon community she edited her previous post to me so that it was not as condescending. She seemed to think that her accusation and use of cog dis as an insult only worked on people who were unfamiliar with the term. Which makes me question her motive for ever bringing it up.

Edited November 25, 2014 by bluebell

[Mystery Meat]

Two competing ideas is half of the definition.  Merriam-Webster defines cognitive dissonance as:  "psychological conflict resulting from incongruous beliefs and attitudes held simultaneously".

 

I think that "psychological conflict" is an important part to remember.  The stress of "cog dis" during my faith crisis was rough and still is at times.  It was made worse because I didn't want to discuss it with my wife for fear of causing the same difficulties for her.

 

That's why I asked the question of lvjd66... s/he identified cognitive dissonance as an "arrogant claim" which led me to wonder how s/he interprets the statement of somehow saying they are experiencing cog dis.

 

Stupid work getting in the way of my internet activities.

 

Cog dis is used as a weapon these days to try and discount the deeply held beliefs of others and it is arrogant and offensive. Moreover, the way it is used is basically to make it synonymous with the phrase "exercise of faith." Any exercise of faith (a good thing) is labeled as cog dis (a bad thing) by former members who view those of us who remain in the Church despite our full understanding of all the tricky issues as mentally inferior. I don't believe my experiences with moments of faith crisis and my continued choice to believe can be summed up as cog dis, at least not in the way some want to use it to diminish the fruits of an exercise in faith. Such folks refuse to consider the possibility that my experience is different than their's, that I have felt the Spirit and that I am capable of distinguishing the difference between the Spirit and my own emotions. I find that highly ironic. 

Edited November 25, 2014 by lvjd66

[Mystery Meat]

I can't speak for lvjd but when I've had the term cog dis hurled at me it's been in the form of an arrogant accusation-something that I suffered from because I was not as enlightened as the accuser.

Such as when I stated that whether or not fanny Alger was merely an affair or considered to be a polygamous wife of JS was debatable (as she had expressed it was a fact that Alger was never JS's polygamous wife) and her reply was that any discomfort and disagreement I was feeling over what she was saying was me suffering from cog dis.

Interestingly enough, once I stated that I was very aware of what cog dis was and its popularity right now in the ex mormon community she edited her previous post to me so that it was not as condescending. She seemed to think that her accusation and use of cog dis as an insult only worked on people who were unfamiliar with the term. Which makes me question her motive for ever bringing it up.

 

This. I have had very similar encounters.

[pogi]

Such folks refuse to consider the possibility that my experience is different than their's

 

They are just suffering from cognitive dissonance. 

[Mystery Meat]

They are just suffering from cognitive dissonance. 

 

Hence the irony. I'm sure the thought others may be getting responses and answers that they are not, that Joseph Smith (the man they despise above all others) might actually have been a Prophet of God and that the Church (or LDS, Inc. as they call it) is HIS Kingdom on earth today makes them terrible uncomfortable and sparks a bunch of mental, defensive reactions.

[Ahab]

Truth is not all good, ya know, so someone saying they left the Church because they learned some truth about something isn't really saying much about what made them want to leave us. And God knows we're not perfect, so to leave us because we have some sort of fault is just silly. Did they ever believe we were perfect to begin with, or something?

Instead of hearing people talking about how they know some truth I'd rather hear them talk about how they know something is good, and share that. That's what the gospel really is. The good news, about everything. I don't bother myself with wanting to know the truth about something when what is true isn't good.

[HappyJackWagon]

The more the church focuses on the strengths of men (ie Joseph Smith, BY, prophets in general) the more disappointed we will be because the prophets will never be able to live up to the sky-high expectations. On the other hand, if the church focuses more on the gospel of Christ and of His role as our Savior and Redeemer the less we will be disappointed because He does live up to the expectations.

There is plenty of accusation and pride on both sides of the issue. The pendulum swings both ways. If we could be comfortable with each other even when we see things differently, and avoid the desire to fix the other side by pulling the dandelion out of their yard, we would all be happier.

[theplains]

I don't believe in the LDS church but I have no desire to convince my believing family or friends to abandon a path that is making them happy.

 

If everyone believed this, there would be no missionaries trying to bring the gospel to Hindus, Buddhists,

and Muslims who are happy with their religion.  If someone knocked on my door and tried to get me to

join an organization where Jesus is Michael the Archangel or Heavenly Father is an exalted man, I would

pass on the invitation, but I would still converse with them.

 

Regards,

Jim

[Calm]

Two competing ideas is half of the definition.  Merriam-Webster defines cognitive dissonance as:  "psychological conflict resulting from incongruous beliefs and attitudes held simultaneously".

 

I think that "psychological conflict" is an important part to remember.  The stress of "cog dis" during my faith crisis was rough and still is at times.  It was made worse because I didn't want to discuss it with my wife for fear of causing the same difficulties for her.

I have seen the misuse of "cognitive dissonance" to mean that members aren't dealing with the fact that they have contradictory beliefs, that they are ignoring the contradictions.  That is not cognitive dissonance at all, if anything that means cognitive dissonance has been resolved for them somehow and they are able to deal with ambiguity.

 

The easiest way to identify cognitive dissonance is if there is expressed a feeling of discomfort associated with not being sure how to treat ideas that appear to one to be contradictory.  Your use appears to be correct.  No discomfort means no cognitive dissonance (and in fact those who accuse others of having it are more likely to have it themselves as they appear to be upset by two contradictory---to them---ideas…that 1) believing in contradictory things is upsetting and 2) mormons believe in things that contradict each others but are happy)

 

(I see that others have had the same idea)

Edited November 25, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Co It simply means having the ability to have two competing ideas at the same time, or what we normally call nuance.

I think that is more just successfully dealing with ambiguity.  Contradicting ideas being held at the same time isn't nuance, nuance is about showing greater context and detail, complexity but there is no reason that such needs to have conflicting ideas included.

[Mystery Meat]

I have seen the misuse of "cognitive dissonance" to mean that members aren't dealing with the fact that they have contradictory beliefs, that they are ignoring the contradictions.  That is not cognitive dissonance at all, if anything that means cognitive dissonance has been resolved for them somehow and they are able to deal with ambiguity.

 

The easiest way to identify cognitive dissonance is if there is expressed a feeling of discomfort associated with not being sure how to treat ideas that appear to one to be contradictory.  Your use appears to be correct.  No discomfort means no cognitive dissonance (and in fact those who accuse others of having it are more likely to have it themselves as they appear to be upset by two contradictory---to them---ideas…that 1) believing in contradictory things is upsetting and 2) mormons believe in things that contradict each others but are happy)

 

(I see that others have had the same idea)

 

I actually think this explains a lot of the vitriol thrown at FAIR, for doing no more than provide reasonable alternatives to some very ambiguous facts and theories. Some think FAIR is evil or at least intellectually dishonest because they simply don't believe there is any ambiguity. Which is even MORE ironic considering what they accuse so-called naive and brainwashed members of the Church.

[stemelbow]

I actually think this explains a lot of the vitriol thrown at FAIR, for doing no more than provide reasonable alternatives to some very ambiguous facts and theories. Some think FAIR is evil or at least intellectually dishonest because they simply don't believe there is any ambiguity. Which is even MORE ironic considering what they accuse so-called naive and brainwashed members of the Church.

FAIR? Those dirty mopologists, following the most twisted paths of explanation, hoping desperately to make that which is awful seem ok.

As I've heard it, if it weren't for FAIR many of my own friends would never have left.

I know, they're just trying to be mean.

[rockpond]

I can't speak for lvjd but when I've had the term cog dis hurled at me it's been in the form of an arrogant accusation-something that I suffered from because I was not as enlightened as the accuser.

Such as when I stated that whether or not fanny Alger was merely an affair or considered to be a polygamous wife of JS was debatable (as she had expressed it was a fact that Alger was never JS's polygamous wife) and her reply was that any discomfort and disagreement I was feeling over what she was saying was me suffering from cog dis.

Interestingly enough, once I stated that I was very aware of what cog dis was and its popularity right now in the ex mormon community she edited her previous post to me so that it was not as condescending. She seemed to think that her accusation and use of cog dis as an insult only worked on people who were unfamiliar with the term. Which makes me question her motive for ever bringing it up.

 

 

Stupid work getting in the way of my internet activities.

 

Cog dis is used as a weapon these days to try and discount the deeply held beliefs of others and it is arrogant and offensive. Moreover, the way it is used is basically to make it synonymous with the phrase "exercise of faith." Any exercise of faith (a good thing) is labeled as cog dis (a bad thing) by former members who view those of us who remain in the Church despite our full understanding of all the tricky issues as mentally inferior. I don't believe my experiences with moments of faith crisis and my continued choice to believe can be summed up as cog dis, at least not in the way some want to use it to diminish the fruits of an exercise in faith. Such folks refuse to consider the possibility that my experience is different than their's, that I have felt the Spirit and that I am capable of distinguishing the difference between the Spirit and my own emotions. I find that highly ironic. 

 

Wow.  Like Cal said, those who accused you of such seem to have no idea what cognitive dissonance actually means!  Regardless of what you might believe or not believe... regardless of what facts you have placed in your head... regardless of faith, testimony, books read, church activity, on and on... if you are NOT experiencing any mental stress over what you might perceive as contradictory beliefs, than you are NOT experiencing cognitive dissonance.  

 

In any case, I'm glad the two of you shared those experiences with me because I was honestly confused by lvjd's post at the bottom of pg 1.  I couldn't understand how cog dis could be an "arrogant claim" or accusation because it should generally be used to describe a state of distress not of comfortable conviction.

 

I believe I've interacted with the two of you enough on these boards to know that neither of you suffer from cognitive dissonance with respect to your religious beliefs and testimony.  But, I promise to be on the lookout for people who use the term incorrectly and I'll try to point out their error.

[Calm]

" But, I promise to be on the lookout for people who use the term incorrectly and I'll try to point out their error."

 

Good luck with that.  

[bluebell]

Wow. Like Cal said, those who accused you of such seem to have no idea what cognitive dissonance actually means! Regardless of what you might believe or not believe... regardless of what facts you have placed in your head... regardless of faith, testimony, books read, church activity, on and on... if you are NOT experiencing any mental stress over what you might perceive as contradictory beliefs, than you are NOT experiencing cognitive dissonance.

In any case, I'm glad the two of you shared those experiences with me because I was honestly confused by lvjd's post at the bottom of pg 1. I couldn't understand how cog dis could be an "arrogant claim" or accusation because it should generally be used to describe a state of distress not of comfortable conviction.

I believe I've interacted with the two of you enough on these boards to know that neither of you suffer from cognitive dissonance with respect to your religious beliefs and testimony. But, I promise to be on the lookout for people who use the term incorrectly and I'll try to point out their error.

[rockpond]

" But, I promise to be on the lookout for people who use the term incorrectly and I'll try to point out their error."

 

Good luck with that.  

 

Ah, c'mon Cal... you're the most level-headed, even-keeled person on these boards --- You gotta give me more optimism than that!  

[Calm]

Okay…my experience is that those who picked the misuse up from the way others use it are open to being corrected pretty easily, those who are actively using it to attack others won't change in their usage…but you probably are thinking about those who just talk about and don't really label others with that label to dismiss their comments.

 

So you can be optimistic in helping those who are open to help.  

 

Is that better?

Edited November 26, 2014 by calmoriah

[teddyaware]

"truth will prevail" is everyone's chant. No matter where we reside in terms of faith, we all claim it.

People who leave the Church often claim that they merely embraced truth and for honesty reasons had to leave. Good for them. But many learn the same stuff and remain. "Mental gymnastics, twisted logic...that's all they got", the critic says condescendingly. "but I still love my family, no matter how dumb they are". Who wants their brother or mom running around saying stuff like that behind their back? I know I don't.

What's tiring to hear these days, and I hear these a lot:

1. the internet is destroying the Church--access to information is uncovering and exposing the Church.

2. the Church deceived me for so long but I learned the truth, implying some sort of brainwashing or something.

3. "apologists" are bad because they have presented arguments that I don't like, and we are all justified in giving anyone who can be in any way associated with defending their faith a bad name.

4. The Church is hurting people.

I get critical as many of you may see, but this type of drawing lines and setting up sides is annoying.

I say if you don't believe the Church carries truth anymore, good for you. I'd even say God may want you to tread an unheard of path. You may be genuine in your pursuit. but stop getting condescending and rude to me just cause I remain. You may, in fact, be smarter than me, whatever that means, but there's no need to gloat over it. There may, in fact, be plenty in the Church smarter than you, and it's just as wrong for them to gloat over it.

Just because Joseph Smith married tons of women and girls, as young as 14 for crying aloud, doesn't mean Jesus didn't sacrifice for mankind, the priesthood wasn't restored and all that. We can still believe, you boneheads.

Dummies, the Church is not going anywhere any time soon. It may lose members, various amounts in various ways, over different periods of time. But don't count it out. It's here.

I meant the name-calling playfully. I sympathize with those who leave. I do. But I tire of things and feel to rant. Please take this lovingly, particularly if you disagree.

 In reality, all the "destructive" things you list are really testing the members of the Church and will not hurt them if they successfully make it through the refiner's fire of the 21st century. The Church will ultimately be stronger and not weaker as a consequence of exposure to these things. Faith must be tested, refined and purified in the fires of adversity before true enlightenment and exaltation are obtained. The Lord went through the refiner's fire during His forty-day fast in the wilderness and in Gethsemane. We will go through similar difficult trials as the day of the Lord's coming draws near.

[rodheadlee]

Cog Dis sounds like the name of a Punk Rock band or perhaps a Rapper.

[stemelbow]

In reality, all the "destructive" things you list are really testing the members of the Church and will not hurt them if they successfully make it through the refiner's fire of the 21st century. The Church will ultimately be stronger and not weaker as a consequence of exposure to these things. Faith must be tested, refined and purified in the fires of adversity before true enlightenment and exaltation are obtained. The Lord went through the refiner's fire during His forty-day fast in the wilderness and in Gethsemane. We will go through similar difficult trials as the day of the Lord's coming draws near.

Is it the refiners fire when people leave the Church and LDS treat them poorly too?

[teddyaware]

Is it the refiners fire when people leave the Church and LDS treat them poorly too?

 

In the refiner's fire, some endure the trial trial of faith successfully and others don't -- that's just the way it is. But God is merciful and many, if not most of those who have left will -- like Alma the younger and the sons of Mosiah -- ultimately return to the fold when the issues become clearer and it becomes more and more obvious that the holy inhabitants of Zion are the Lord's true Church. Eventually, all but the sons of perdition will acknowledge Christ is the God of the Latter-day Saints and will therefore receive salvation in one of Christ's heavenly mansions of glory...

 

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

 110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

 111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared; (D7C 76)

Edited November 26, 2014 by teddyaware

[thesometimesaint]

Two competing ideas is half of the definition.  Merriam-Webster defines cognitive dissonance as:  "psychological conflict resulting from incongruous beliefs and attitudes held simultaneously".

 

I think that "psychological conflict" is an important part to remember.  The stress of "cog dis" during my faith crisis was rough and still is at times.  It was made worse because I didn't want to discuss it with my wife for fear of causing the same difficulties for her.

 

That's why I asked the question of lvjd66... s/he identified cognitive dissonance as an "arrogant claim" which led me to wonder how s/he interprets the statement of somehow saying they are experiencing cog dis.

 

Actually no mental stress is involved for most people. We simply accept the premise that two things can be factually accurate and still compete with each other. IE; Glass is a liquid at room temperatures, but it feels solid enough to us.

 

I don't discount the mental stress, but I don't overplay it either. I certainly don't use it against people of faith, or people finding they are having internal conflict(s) with their religion.

 

You'll have to ask Ivjd66 for what she meant.

[Mystery Meat]

Actually no mental stress is involved for most people. We simply accept the premise that two things can be factually accurate and still compete with each other. IE; Glass is a liquid at room temperatures, but it feels solid enough to us.

 

I don't discount the mental stress, but I don't overplay it either. I certainly don't use it against people of faith, or people finding they are having internal conflict(s) with their religion.

 

You'll have to ask Ivjd66 for what she meant.

 

Asked and answered.

[rockpond]

Actually no mental stress is involved for most people. We simply accept the premise that two things can be factually accurate and still compete with each other. IE; Glass is a liquid at room temperatures, but it feels solid enough to us.

 

I don't discount the mental stress, but I don't overplay it either. I certainly don't use it against people of faith, or people finding they are having internal conflict(s) with their religion.

 

You'll have to ask Ivjd66 for what she meant.

 

Exactly... and if not mental stress is involved than it is NOT by definition cognitive dissonance and anyone accusing you (or someone) of such is incorrect.  To tell someone of faith that they are suffering from cog dis when they are not experiencing any psychological discomfort from their beliefs is just an inappropriate application of the term.