"the Carthage Conspiracy"- Joseph M. Smith

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Fair enough. Please see Joseph L. Lyon and David W. Lyon, "Physical Evidence at Carthage Jail and What It Reveals about the Assassination of Joseph and Hyrum Smith," BYU Studies 47, no. 4 (2008): 5–50.

 

Thanks. I will look at that.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

After you respond to my last post.  See if you can figure this one out. 

 

Joseph had a six shooter.  Hyrum has a single shot which was never fired.  3 of Joseph's rounds misfire, 3 rounds injure 3 different mob members. How then was John Taylor shot by Joseph 4-5 times?  

 

That's better...

I am trying to track down Mr. Smith. And questions like that are helpful.

[pogi]

 

I don't know why you are so hostile. I am simply looking for rebuttals to his claims. You just seem angry- perhaps you should take a breather?

 

I don't mean to be hostile.  I was getting angry because I offered you a reasonable explanation for the ballistics which you avoided, then told me to focus on the ballistics. 

[cinepro]

 

I don't know why you are so hostile. I am simply looking for rebuttals to his claims. You just seem angry- perhaps you should take a breather?

 

I haven't listened to the whole thing, nor will I, so will someone lay out how Mr. Smith feels the whole thing went down?

 

Brigham Young decides Joseph needs to go, and he gets John Taylor and Willard Richards to agree with him.  They get themselves locked up with Joseph and Hyrum, and have concealed weapons.  By coincidence or plan, an angry armed mob storms the jail house and forces their way inside.  During the attack, Willard Richards and John Taylor enact their plan, murder Joseph and Hyrum, but Taylor is shot four times (not part of the plan?)  The mob allows John Taylor and Willard Richards to live.  The Church is subsequently thrown into absolute turmoil and Brigham only barely becomes the next leader.

 

Honestly, if Brigham Young wanted Joseph gone and to be the next leader, that would be the absolute worst plan ever, in the history of the world.  I'm embarrassed for the guy in the video, and I'm embarrassed I've typed this much on the subject. 

[pogi]

...also, where is the alleged gun that Taylor shot Hyrum with?  How could he sneak it out and hide it after being shot 4-5 times?  Why would he need to hide it?  It's not like he didn't have a good reason to have one on him.  Nobody would have suspected him.   

[pogi]

I haven't listened to the whole thing, nor will I, so will someone lay out how Mr. Smith feels the whole thing went down?

 

Brigham Young decides Joseph needs to go, and he gets John Taylor and Willard Richards to agree with him.  They get themselves locked up with Joseph and Hyrum, and have concealed weapons.  By coincidence or plan, an angry armed mob storms the jail house and forces their way inside.  During the attack, Willard Richards and John Taylor enact their plan, murder Joseph and Hyrum, but Taylor is shot four times (not part of the plan?)  The mob allows John Taylor and Willard Richards to live.  The Church is subsequently thrown into absolute turmoil and Brigham only barely becomes the next leader.

 

Honestly, if Brigham Young wanted Joseph gone and to be the next leader, that would be the absolute worst plan ever, in the history of the world.  I'm embarrassed for the guy in the video, and I'm embarrassed I've typed this much on the subject. 

 

Taylor getting shot was not part of the plan.  He got shot because he was stupid enough to shoot Hyrum first, when it was Joseph that he really wanted dead.  Not to mention it was Joseph with the 6 shooter.  It makes perfect sense that he would shoot Hyrum first while Joseph watched with a loaded gun.  It also makes perfect sense that he would shoot Hyrum point-blank from behind in the liver instead of the head or chest. Apparently Joseph shot 6 shots at the mob, then shot 4-5 more shots at Taylor, all with a 6 shooter.  Why?  Because Joseph was mad at Brigham for starting polygamy. But we can't talk about motive here. 

Edited October 29, 2014 by pogi

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Taylor getting shot was not part of the plan.  He got shot because he was stupid enough to shoot Hyrum first, when it was Joseph that he really wanted dead.  Not to mention it was Joseph with the 6 shooter.  It makes perfect sense that he would shoot Hyrum first while Joseph watched with a loaded gun.  It also makes perfect sense that he would shoot Hyrum point-blank from behind in the liver instead of the head or chest. Apparently Joseph shot 6 shots at the mob, then shot 4-5 more shots at Taylor, all with a 6 shooter.  Why?  Because Joseph was mad at Brigham for starting polygamy. But we can't talk about motive here. 

Because motive is not the point of this topic- whether his theory about the forensics holds water is. I posted this because I wanted another side to examine- but, par for course, if you dare bring up something different than the correlated narrative, you are obviously an anti-Mormon and somebody loses the brain and goes off half-cocked looking to fight with you. Some of you really do need to get over yourselves and realize it's OK to examine an issue without getting pissed off and defensive.

[cdowis]

Taylor getting shot was not part of the plan.  He got shot because he was stupid enough to shoot Hyrum first, when it was Joseph that he really wanted dead. 

 

Actually, he was a blithering idiot, since there were lots of people inside and outside determined to kill Joseph.  All he had to do was to hide under the bed and let the mob do the job for him.

 

Now tell us, with this one detail alone, why we should take this person seriously.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Actually, he was a blithering idiot, since there were lots of people inside and outside determined to kill Joseph.  All he had to do was to hide under the bed and let the mob do the job for him.

 

Now tell us, with this one detail alone, why we should take this person seriously.

 

Mr. Smith opines in the presentation that the plan was to have the mob do the job, and then Joseph was brought the pistol, which threw a wrench into the plan. I guess it was pointless for me to start this topic since few are actually willing to watch the video to see what he actually covers before offering an opinion.

[The Nehor]

This is just a smokescreen. Joseph faked his death and went north to preach to the Lost Tribes under the glacier. He was translated and lives in Cumorah. He snuck into a bunker in1945 and stole Hitler's brain so that it can be implanted into the next Antichrist. The evidence is all there. WAKE UP SHEEPLE!!!!!!!

[Michael Sanders]

I watched this nonsense twice about a year ago - to believe that rational people fall for this kind of propaganda is scary. You have to understand that this stuff sells like hotcakes among those of the old RLDS remnants who want to paint BY as the devil incarnate. They want to believe that Joseph's martyrdom was an inside job by BY, Richards, Taylor, et...It fits the conspiracy narrative that's been peddled in these parts for generations. A more realistic version of events can be had by reading:

Dallin H. Oaks and Marvin S. Hill, The Carthage Conspiracy: The Trial of the Accused Assassins of Jospeph Smith, Jr. - although the conspirators are not members of the church who eventually went to Utah.

and

Robert S. Wicks and Fred Foister, Junius & Joseph: Presidential Politics and the Assassination of the First Mormon Prophet

and here are the most likely culprits:

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/carthage/defendantsbios.html

Mike Sanders

Book of Mormon Believer

Independence, MO

[mfbukowski]

Less plausible then Hyrum being shot in the face by a high caliber rifle and having enough brains intact to declare "I am a dead man!" ?

Edit: How about dealing with the actual science?

Black powder is very hard to load consistently especially under duress.

 

I suggest you actually practice trying to load a black powder weapon rapidly and see if you measure the powder accurately

[mfbukowski]

No one claims it was a high caliber rifle that hit him in the face (not even he does), so that part is kind of stupid.  They could have been armed with different weapons. 

Regardless of caliber, if loaded with an insufficient powder charge, the biggest rifle becomes a pop-gun.  I would never base an argument of this importance on a presumption that any black powder weapon had an accurately measured powder charge.

[mfbukowski]

I guess I missed that part.  Can you lay it out for me, because he did an awful job?

 

Lets look at motive.   For those who are interested but don't want to watch the whole thing.  His claim of motive is from 51:37 - 54:02. 

 

This motive is based on the belief that Brigham (not Joseph) was responsible for polygamy entering the church (Lol!).

The DO believe that anyway, if I am not mistaken.  Obviously they did not support Brigham as a leader, and I think their version of the story includes blaming BY for polygamy.

[Kenngo1969]

That John Taylor was a cool, conniving, calculating customer.  He sings this:

 

https://www.lds.org/music/library/hymns/a-poor-wayfaring-man-of-grief?lang=eng

 

Joseph asks him to sing it again.

 

He thinks to himself, "Sure, why not?  I'm going to bump you off shortly anyway, so I might as well humor you in the meantime."

 

(He was very good at compartmentalizing.)

 

"To-Do" List: John Taylor

1. Sing Joseph's favorite hymn.  Check!
2. At his request, sing Joseph's favorite hymn again. Check!
3. Bump Joseph off.

Now, that's one Hard-Hearted Dude!

 

Even the smallest possible conspiracies, those composed of just two people, tend, eventually, to collapse under their own weight. This would require a far larger conspiracy, yet nobody ever talked??  And nobody ever found out?  And, if someone did find out, despite how beloved Joseph was by members of the Church, nobody ever determined to administer a little rough frontier justice?   

[volgadon]

High-caliber rifle doesn't really apply to the kinds of rifles used by militias at the time. Now, did Hyrum actually say what Richards claimed? last utterances are a notoriously tricky phenomenon.

[strappinglad]

. Apparently Joseph shot 6 shots at the mob, then shot 4-5 more shots at Taylor, all with a 6 shooter.

Come on, everyone knows this is normal, Hollywood does this all the time.

[cdowis]

Now, did Hyrum actually say what Richards claimed? last utterances are a notoriously tricky phenomenon.

 

I think the issue is not WHAT he said, but that he was able to say something at all.

[Nevo]

Apparently Joseph shot 6 shots at the mob, then shot 4-5 more shots at Taylor, all with a 6 shooter.

 

Taylor at least was a good sport about it. On the tenth anniversary of Joseph and Hyrum's murder, Taylor addressed a large crowd in Salt Lake City as follows:

 

It is pleasing to know that we are the disciples of as good a man as Joseph Smith was; of a man that lived in the fear of God and taught his fear, who was faithful all his life long, and [remained faithful] unto the death. It is pleasing to reflect upon our associations with men of this kind and also with Brother Hyrum—it is to me. And I am happy to be associated with the church and kingdom of God. I feel thankful to my Heavenly Father that I live in this day and age [of the] world when the light and truth of [the] everlasting gospel has shone forth. I consider it one of [the] greatest blessings and privileges that can be proffered upon me as an individual, next to the spirit of God so brooding upon my mind as to cause me to yield obedience to that gospel and to participate in blessings associated therewith.

 

I was blessed to be associated with Brother Joseph Smith and, as President Young said he knew him, so did I. I have been with him under all kinds of circumstances—when the thick clouds of darkness gathered around and the earthquakes seemed to bellow and threaten destruction; when the forces of [the] earth were rallied against him; and in times of prosperity. I have heard him, as many of you have, speak in public to advance the principles of eternal truth, plead with the people to observe the laws of God, and keep his commandments that they might be prepared for a celestial inheritance. I have also been with him in private council so that I have had the opportunity of becoming acquainted with his feelings, ideas, views, with his morality, with his truthfulness, with his integrity. And I know that he was a good man; that he was an honest man; that he was a man of integrity; that he was a prophet of the Lord; that he lived in that capacity and died in that capacity and maintained his integrity to the end. I was not only with him living but with him dying and this is my testimony concerning Joseph Smith. I know before God and the holy angels. I do not think it; I know it.

 

— Mark Lyman Staker, ed., "John Taylor's June 27, 1854, Account of the Martyrdom," BYU Studies 50, no. 3 (2011): 41; transcribed by LaJean Purcell Carruth from George D. Watt's notes in Pitman shorthand.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Nevo

[pogi]

High-caliber rifle doesn't really apply to the kinds of rifles used by militias at the time. Now, did Hyrum actually say what Richards claimed? last utterances are a notoriously tricky phenomenon.

 

Both Richards and Taylor report that these were his last words.  

 

 

I think the issue is not WHAT he said, but that he was able to say something at all.

 

The link that Nevo posted explains what most likely happened.  It says that he was most likely shot while pressing against the door and that the bullet entered just inferior and medial to his left eye and exited his jaw.  Richard and Taylor thought he was shot immediately after jumping back from the door, but it was probably being shot which caused him to jump back.  There was no exit wound on the back of his skull which would have been the case if he was shot after jumping back, but there were two dislodge teeth, suggesting that it exited through his jaw.  This would have made it difficult to speak, but not impossible.  They tested this theory by getting a man Hyrum's height to press against the door and were able to perfectly align the downward angle of the bullet hole in the door with the type of wound he received. 

 

The funny thing is that after watching this conspiracy video, I read Nevo's link.  It was uncanny to find that I was reading exactly what I just watched, down to the spray of the muskets and how the militia would have been holding the rifles - minus the exonerating details of course.  I guarantee this whole conspiracy theory was crafted after reading this article.  They stole the pieces of information that don't line up with eye witness accounts, and left out all of the evidence which exonerates them.  

Edited October 29, 2014 by pogi

[Mystery Meat]

I think they are trying desperately hard to convince themselves that Joseph Smith never endorsed polygamy. I know BMLVR doesn't want this thread to be about that, but there is no way getting around it. This is ALL about polygamy. But the fact is Joseph did practice polygamy. 

[Alan]

 But the fact is Joseph did practice polygamy. 

 

 

No he didn't.

[JLHPROF]

No he didn't.

 

According to the Church, the historians, most members, and his family, yes he did.

 

You can redefine plural marriage if you like, but whatever it was, he lived it.

 

Seriously, what kind of evidence would it take for you to accept that Joseph lived plural marriage?

Edited October 29, 2014 by JLHPROF

[cdowis]

According to the Church, the historians, most members, and his family, yes he did.

 

 

You forgot the anti-Mormons.  And they should know.

[Alan]

According to the Church, the historians, most members, and his family, yes he did.

 

 

Seriously?

You're claiming that Emma, Joseph Smith III, Alexander, David, and all the rest say he practiced polygamy. This I have got to see! CFR