"the Carthage Conspiracy"- Joseph M. Smith

[BookofMormonLuvr]

This presentation recently came into my possession and I am posting the link to the YouTube upload to give those here, who may know more about ballistics, an opportunity to rebut the arguments made by Mr. Smith. Basically, through ballistics evidence, Mr. Smith challenges the official account of the Martyrdom offered by Willard Richards. I would be really interested in rebuttals to his points...

http://youtu.be/7ASgT6D22-Q

[stemelbow]

This presentation recently came into my possession and I am posting the link to the YouTube upload to give those here, who may know more about ballistics, an opportunity to rebut the arguments made by Mr. Smith. Basically, through ballistics evidence, Mr. Smith challenges the official account of the Martyrdom offered by Willard Richards. I would be really interested in rebuttals to his points...

http://youtu.be/7ASgT6D22-Q

it's an hour and forty two minutes of points. what points?

I haven't listened to it, I might, but I don't know if I could figure out which points are to be addressed here.

If I did, I probably wouldn't be a good respondent anyway, but for those who would be good, what should be responded to?

Edited October 28, 2014 by stemelbow

[pogi]

I am watching it now, but have this question.  If he believes that he was murdered by Willard Richards and John Taylor, does he explain the 4 or 5 bullets that John received?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I am watching it now, but have this question.  If he believes that he was murdered by Willard Richards and John Taylor, does he explain the 4 or 5 bullets that John received?

 

He does.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

it's an hour and forty two minutes of points. what points?

I haven't listened to it, I might, but I don't know if I could figure out which points are to be addressed here.

If I did, I probably wouldn't be a good respondent anyway, but for those who would be good, what should be responded to?

 

2 Main Points Ballistically Speaking:

The caliber of the weapons and the damage they would've caused.

The angle of the shots for Richard's story to be plausible.

Edited October 28, 2014 by BookofMormonLuvr

[stemelbow]

2 Main Points Ballistically Speaking:

The caliber of the weapons and the damage they would've caused.

The angle of the shots for Richard's story to be plausible.

Interesting. Might listen when I get a chance.

[pogi]

Why would it be an inside job when there was a perfectly capable mob outside?

 

Also, I kind of doubt the precise accuracy of Willard Richards account as well. If you had an angry mob outside with the intent to kill you and your friends with bullets flying all over the place, do you think that you would have the wherewithal to describe the exact location each person in the room was standing and which way they were facing when they got shot?  

Edited October 28, 2014 by pogi

[pogi]

Wow, this gets to be more and more of a joke as I watch.  

 

John Taylor shoots Hyrum Smith practically point blank from behind and hits him in the liver?  Give me a break!  Hyrum turns around and struggles with John.  Joseph shoots back to protect his brother and shoots John in the thigh and knees while struggling and wresting with Hyrum.  That makes perfect sense that Joseph would shoot at John while wrestling with his brother.  Oh wait, he shot at his legs because he was afraid he might accidentally shoot Hyrum, because everyone knows that it is so much easier to accurately shoot someones legs when wresting with someone else without shooting the other person. 

 

Brigham ordered the shooting because he wanted to practice polygamy and he didn't think that Joseph would allow it?

Edited October 28, 2014 by pogi

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Wow, this gets to be more and more of a joke as I watch.  

 

John Taylor shoots Hyrum Smith practically point blank from behind and hits him in the liver?  Give me a break!  Hyrum turns around and struggles with John.  Joseph shoots back to protect his brother and shoots John in the thigh and knees while struggling and wresting with Hyrum.  That makes perfect sense that Joseph would shoot at John while wrestling with his brother.  Oh wait, he shot at his legs because he was afraid he might accidentally shoot Hyrum, because everyone knows that it is so much easier to accurately shoot someones legs when wresting with someone else without shooting the other person. 

 

Brigham ordered the shooting because he wanted to practice polygamy and he didn't think that Joseph would allow it?

Less plausible then Hyrum being shot in the face by a high caliber rifle and having enough brains intact to declare "I am a dead man!" ?

Edit: How about dealing with the actual science?

Edited October 28, 2014 by BookofMormonLuvr

[pogi]

Less plausible then Hyrum being shot in the face by a high caliber rifle and having enough brains intact to declare "I am a dead man!" ?

 

No one claims it was a high caliber rifle that hit him in the face (not even he does), so that part is kind of stupid.  They could have been armed with different weapons. 

[BookofMormonLuvr]

No one claims it was a high caliber rifle that hit him in the face (not even he does), so that part is kind of stupid.  They could have been armed with different weapons. 

 

He lays out a good case for the caliber rifles used.

[Nevo]

He lays out a good case for the caliber rifles used.

 

Yep. And 9/11 was an inside job and Kennedy was shot by a member of his Secret Service detail (the ballistics evidence is compelling!) and the Apollo lunar landings took place on a sound stage, etc.

 

The theory is completely asinine but it's further proof that some people will believe literally anything.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Yep. And 9/11 was an inside job and Kennedy was shot by a member of his Secret Service detail (the ballistics evidence is compelling!) and the Apollo lunar landings took place on a sound stage, etc.

 

The theory is completely asinine but it's further proof that some people will believe literally anything.

Did you actually watch the presentation?

Anyways, I am looking for factual rebuttals, not defensive responses.

Thank you.

[halconero]

Not necessarily a factual rebuttal, and no, I have not yet had an opportunity to analyze the video, but I believe that the principle of Occam's Razor applies there. All things being equal, the simplest explanation is most likely the correct one. You have a murderous mob trying to kill Joseph, keeping said mob out is occupying the time and efforts of all under attack, there is little to no motivation for killing a compatriot at the moment, and yet you still kill him. 

 

It seems highly implausible even before I watch the video. I'll still make an effort to once tomorrow's midterm is over.

[cinepro]

I watched a little of it, and if the main point is that the accounts from John Taylor and Willard Richards are probably not forensically accurate, I would have to agree.  Heck, it was only a few years ago that we learned that John Taylor's watch wasn't broken by a gunshot.

 

But as halconero pointed out, you still have to account for the mob.  When you have a crowd of angry armed men storming a building with the intent to murder the occupants, and they successfully breach the building and shoot inside a bunch of times, then the burden of proof to show that the occupants were not shot by the invaders but instead by their good friends is pretty dang high.

Edited October 29, 2014 by cinepro

[pogi]

 

He lays out a good case for the caliber rifles used.

 

I guess I missed that part.  Can you lay it out for me, because he did an awful job?

 

Lets look at motive.   For those who are interested but don't want to watch the whole thing.  His claim of motive is from 51:37 - 54:02. 

 

This motive is based on the belief that Brigham (not Joseph) was responsible for polygamy entering the church (Lol!).   Joseph claims that polygamy is going to destroy the church and demands an an end to it.  Joseph claims that he knows who is responsible (Brigham Young).  "Within 2 weeks he was dead."  Wow!

 

My favorite part is at 53:18 when he says, “Brigham already had 2 wives.  Joseph didn’t know about the second wife. We only assume Brigham had 2 wives. We don’t know for sure ourselves.”   To top off the joke that Brigham wa responsible for polygamy entering the church, his whole theory of motive is based on an assumption.  Nice!

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I guess I missed that part.  Can you lay it out for me, because he did an awful job?

 

Lets look at motive.   For those who are interested but don't want to watch the whole thing.  His claim of motive is from 51:37 - 54:02. 

 

This motive is based on the belief that Brigham (not Joseph) was responsible for polygamy entering the church (Lol!).   Joseph claims that polygamy is going to destroy the church and demands an an end to it.  Joseph claims that he knows who is responsible (Brigham Young).  "Within 2 weeks he was dead."  Wow!

 

My favorite part is at 53:18 when he says, “Brigham already had 2 wives.  Joseph didn’t know about the second wife. We only assume Brigham had 2 wives. We don’t know for sure ourselves.”   To top off the joke that Brigham wa responsible for polygamy entering the church, his whole theory of motive is based on an assumption.  Nice!

Again, this topic is about the ballistics evidence of the Martyrdom, not polygamy. Please, keep focused.

[pogi]

Again, this topic is about the ballistics evidence of the Martyrdom, not polygamy. Please, keep focused.

 

Ummm...I thought this was about the carthage conspiracy, in which case we need to speak of motive.  Ballistics is not enough.

 

The ballistics are easily explained by the fact that we don't know the exact position and location of each person when they were shot, and we also can't know what weapons were being fired by the mob.   And, as cinepro points out, it was not a bullet that struck John Taylor's watch.  You can't blame that one on Joseph's bullet.  For this, and other reasons, I question his expertise.  He was in a gun-powder club so that makes him a ballistics expert?  I am not interested in shoddy amateur ballistics.

 

So I ask you, why would Brigham Young (and the rest of the leadership apparently) want Joseph dead?  And why would God fearing men murder someone at the very moment when a mob was conveniently shooting at the very people they wanted dead? 

Edited October 29, 2014 by pogi

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Ummm...I thought this was about the carthage conspiracy, in which case we need to speak of motive.  Ballistics is not enough.

 

The ballistics are easily explained by the fact that we don't know the exact position and location of each person when they were shot, and we also can't know what weapons were being fired by the mob.   And, as cinepro points out, it was not a bullet that struck John Taylor's watch.  You can't blame that one on Joseph's bullet.  For this, and other reasons, I question his expertise.  He was in a gun-powder club so that makes him a ballistics expert?  I am not interested in shoddy amateur ballistics.

 

So I ask you, why would Brigham Young (and the rest of the leadership apparently) want Joseph dead?  And why would God fearing men murder someone at the very moment when a mob was conveniently shooting at the very people they wanted dead? 

I made it very clear in the OP that my focus on this topic was the ballistics claims. You can try to turn it into something else, but I'm not biting.

Smith made some very specific claims about the two areas I mentioned.. trajectories and rifle calibers. Those are the subjects here.

Edited October 29, 2014 by BookofMormonLuvr

[pogi]

I made it very clear in the OP that my focus on this topic was the ballistics claims. You can try to turn it into something else, but I'm not biting.

Smith made some very specific claims about the two areas I mentioned.. trajectories and rifle calibers. Those are the subjects here.

 

I just gave you a perfectly good explanation for your ballistics bologna. 

[cdowis]

Did you actually watch the presentation?

Anyways, I am looking for factual rebuttals, not defensive responses.

Thank you.

 

This claim does not even meet the smell test.  And that's a fact.

You're welcome.

[Nevo]

Anyways, I am looking for factual rebuttals, not defensive responses.

 

Fair enough. Please see Joseph L. Lyon and David W. Lyon, "Physical Evidence at Carthage Jail and What It Reveals about the Assassination of Joseph and Hyrum Smith," BYU Studies 47, no. 4 (2008): 5–50.

[Nevo]

dup 

Edited October 29, 2014 by Nevo

[pogi]

After you respond to my last post.  See if you can figure this one out. 

 

Joseph had a six shooter.  Hyrum has a single shot which was never fired.  3 of Joseph's rounds misfire, 3 rounds injure 3 different mob members. How then was John Taylor shot by Joseph 4-5 times?  

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I just gave you a perfectly good explanation for your ballistics bologna. 

 

I don't know why you are so hostile. I am simply looking for rebuttals to his claims. You just seem angry- perhaps you should take a breather?