Is The Only Way To Win Not To Play?

[mormonnewb]

I'm going to make discussion board history by stating the following: I may have been wrong.

 

In the past, I have argued vehemently (and often, crassly) that the Church MUST "come clean" about some of the more controversial parts of its history, such as polygamy.  And apparently, the Brethren must very often consult this board for ideas on how to more effectively run the Church because they just released three essays that were more "revelatory" than I ever thought possible.  However, as I read scattered reports on the Bloggernacle about the devastation these essays are causing in the testimonies of a (very) few saints, I'm starting to think that, just like my wife and children, the Church would have been wise to ignore my advice.

 

I've often argued that the feeling of being "lied to" causes the greatest damage to testimonies, but these essays don't necessarily prevent that feeling of being deceived, especially not for saints who've been in the Church for their whole lives.  If someone has attended thousands of hours of Church instruction (e.g., primary, seminary, Sunday School, etc.) and learns for the first time about, say, Fanny Alger or polyandry, for the first time in this essay, they are likely to feel just as deceived.  It would be like confessing to my wife in 2014 about an affair that happened in 1994, and saying, "Don't you feel better about hearing it from me?"  To which she would likely reply (through her attorney), "I would have felt better hearing it from you in 1994.  20 years later, not so much!"

 

In the past, I've also argued that the Church should "get ahead" of the Internet rumors by publishing its own (and more faith-promoting) version of the events.  I did not take into account that the Internet would strike back; and with a vengeance.  And while someone is always criticizing the Church for something (we take shifts), the critics are often fighting shadows in the form of rumors and innuendo (e.g., "Apostle So-and-So has dementia," "Brigham Young contracted cooties in Nauvoo", etc.).  However, in this case, the critics have been able to latch unto the Church's own words.  And even when the Church has attempted to frame the message in a light most positive to JS, the Internet has been quick to pounce; in some cases, pretty much creating memes out of the Church's language.

 

For example, you can probably imagine what the Internet did to the statement that JS was sealed to Helen Mar Kimball "several months before her 15th birthday."  It was just hours before people were counting everything in terms of months before one's birthday.  "I let my son drive the car home last night.  After all, he is just 98 months shy of his 16th birthday."  "My grandmother died last night, but don't feel bad, she lived 789 months past her 15th birthday."  And you don't even want to know what people are saying about the angel with the flaming sword account.

 

Even worse, I'm starting to see some rather thorough "take-downs" of the essay in which people are using the Church's admissions of certain facts (e.g., public denials of the practice) to come to far less faith-promoting explanations for JS' actions.  This is different than just last week because, back in the good old days, a saint could always comfort themselves with the idea that it probably wasn't true and even if it was true, it wasn't important enough for the Church to mention it before so why worry about it?  By publishing these essays, the Church has taken both of those arguments off the table.

 

Also, by publishing these essays, the Church seems to be "back-pedaling."  It's like the politician who refuses to answer the question of whether he smoked pot in the 1960s finally succumbing to the pressure and holding a press conference to say, "Okay, I did try pot once at Woodstock, but I didn't inhale."  From just a PR standpoint, it would have been better to either remain silent or to deny usage outright.  Heck, it might even be better to make a full-throated confession (complete with dutiful wife standing by pitifully).  However, to say, "Yes, after all this time I'm going to tell you about JS' polygamy, but you should know that he didn't always 'marry for time'" is the kind of statement that the Bloggernacle lives for.

 

I'm starting to think that once a saint starts down this rabbit hole, they are much more likely to end up with one of their feet on a keychain than in the Celestial Kingdom.  As we all learned from the 80s classic movie, War Games, Ally Sheedy was kinda cute in the right lighting.  We also learned that "the only winning move is not to play."  I think this latter(-day) advice might not just apply to nuclear war, but also, the Church playing the apologetics game.

 

Of course, I've been wrong before.  What do you think?

 

 

[The Nehor]

And apparently, the Brethren must very often consult this board for ideas on how to more effectively run the Church because they just released three essays that were more "revelatory" than I ever thought possible.

Is this sarcasm or delusions of grandeur about this board?

[Calm]

I think it had to be done eventually given the information age and its dynamics.  Hopefully once the excitement dies down, they will be mostly used for good and not evil.

[KevinG]

H8Rs gonna H8.

There is nothing we can do to stop that. And those who have managed to stay so secluded from the mountains of LDS history that they have never heard of the controversies will be tested with the fact that we don't have perfect prophets. If they allow the shock to knocjpk them out of the church they will only harm themselves. If they prayerfully approach the Lord and do what many of have done, realize that God can work through imperfect servants they will end up with a stronger grasp of the truth.

I've been teaching the ugly/beautiful truth to my kids for decades. Even the 14 year old responded to this news with. We knew that did nt we?

Anyone who read about Moses or Abraham would know that God works miracles through repentant scoundrels.

I think this is a cautionary tale for those who think going Pollyanna on their religion is the way to build faith.

Edited October 25, 2014 by KevinG

[Grudunza]

Short term, yes, it probably has the effect of pulling a tooth out after only counting to 2, instead of the expected 3. But I do feel like the tooth needed to be pulled at some point, and perspective of time will probably favor these articles being available and giving an official church perspective on the subject.

As opposed to (or perhaps in addition to) feeling like the church has lied to them about polygamy, or withheld information, another concern would be for people to observe in this history that JS was deliberately deceptive in some ways. I can chalk that up to personal failings or him following a private directive of the Lord, but some of this will be difficult for those of fledgling faith, and also give ammunition to detractors.

[KevinG]

Oh... And I think the only way to win is not to play. In the sense that we publish our stories on our time and the critics who won't be satisfied unless we dry up and disappear can just lump it. I'm all for research, but the real scoop is neither as pretty or ugly as some would wish it to be.

[Robert F. Smith]

.........................................................................................

 

I'm starting to think that once a saint starts down this rabbit hole, they are much more likely to end up with one of their feet on a keychain than in the Celestial Kingdom.  As we all learned from the 80s classic movie, War Games, Ally Sheedy was kinda cute in the right lighting.  We also learned that "the only winning move is not to play."  I think this latter(-day) advice might not just apply to nuclear war, but also, the Church playing the apologetics game.

 

Of course, I've been wrong before.  What do you think?

Get over it already, newby.  Next you'll be telling us to be careful what we wish for.

 

I say "Do what is right and let the consequence follow."  No handwringing necessary, even if some nervous nellies do leave the Church over it (whatever "it" is at the moment).  This life is a test of our resolve to find and believe in the truth, and it is not supposed to be an easy test.  So, "let us all press on in the work of the Lord, . . ."

Edited October 25, 2014 by Robert F. Smith

[ERayR]

I'm going to make discussion board history by stating the following: I may have been wrong.

 

In the past, I have argued vehemently (and often, crassly) that the Church MUST "come clean" about some of the more controversial parts of its history, such as polygamy.  And apparently, the Brethren must very often consult this board for ideas on how to more effectively run the Church because they just released three essays that were more "revelatory" than I ever thought possible.  However, as I read scattered reports on the Bloggernacle about the devastation these essays are causing in the testimonies of a (very) few saints, I'm starting to think that, just like my wife and children, the Church would have been wise to ignore my advice.

 

I've often argued that the feeling of being "lied to" causes the greatest damage to testimonies, but these essays don't necessarily prevent that feeling of being deceived, especially not for saints who've been in the Church for their whole lives.  If someone has attended thousands of hours of Church instruction (e.g., primary, seminary, Sunday School, etc.) and learns for the first time about, say, Fanny Alger or polyandry, for the first time in this essay, they are likely to feel just as deceived.  It would be like confessing to my wife in 2014 about an affair that happened in 1994, and saying, "Don't you feel better about hearing it from me?"  To which she would likely reply (through her attorney), "I would have felt better hearing it from you in 1994.  20 years later, not so much!"

 

In the past, I've also argued that the Church should "get ahead" of the Internet rumors by publishing its own (and more faith-promoting) version of the events.  I did not take into account that the Internet would strike back; and with a vengeance.  And while someone is always criticizing the Church for something (we take shifts), the critics are often fighting shadows in the form of rumors and innuendo (e.g., "Apostle So-and-So has dementia," "Brigham Young contracted cooties in Nauvoo", etc.).  However, in this case, the critics have been able to latch unto the Church's own words.  And even when the Church has attempted to frame the message in a light most positive to JS, the Internet has been quick to pounce; in some cases, pretty much creating memes out of the Church's language.

 

For example, you can probably imagine what the Internet did to the statement that JS was sealed to Helen Mar Kimball "several months before her 15th birthday."  It was just hours before people were counting everything in terms of months before one's birthday.  "I let my son drive the car home last night.  After all, he is just 98 months shy of his 16th birthday."  "My grandmother died last night, but don't feel bad, she lived 789 months past her 15th birthday."  And you don't even want to know what people are saying about the angel with the flaming sword account.

 

Even worse, I'm starting to see some rather thorough "take-downs" of the essay in which people are using the Church's admissions of certain facts (e.g., public denials of the practice) to come to far less faith-promoting explanations for JS' actions.  This is different than just last week because, back in the good old days, a saint could always comfort themselves with the idea that it probably wasn't true and even if it was true, it wasn't important enough for the Church to mention it before so why worry about it?  By publishing these essays, the Church has taken both of those arguments off the table.

 

Also, by publishing these essays, the Church seems to be "back-pedaling."  It's like the politician who refuses to answer the question of whether he smoked pot in the 1960s finally succumbing to the pressure and holding a press conference to say, "Okay, I did try pot once at Woodstock, but I didn't inhale."  From just a PR standpoint, it would have been better to either remain silent or to deny usage outright.  Heck, it might even be better to make a full-throated confession (complete with dutiful wife standing by pitifully).  However, to say, "Yes, after all this time I'm going to tell you about JS' polygamy, but you should know that he didn't always 'marry for time'" is the kind of statement that the Bloggernacle lives for.

 

I'm starting to think that once a saint starts down this rabbit hole, they are much more likely to end up with one of their feet on a keychain than in the Celestial Kingdom.  As we all learned from the 80s classic movie, War Games, Ally Sheedy was kinda cute in the right lighting.  We also learned that "the only winning move is not to play."  I think this latter(-day) advice might not just apply to nuclear war, but also, the Church playing the apologetics game.

 

Of course, I've been wrong before.  What do you think?

 

I Told you so and so did others.   The Churches job is to teach the gospel not respond to rumors.  It is our choice of how we respond to those in the great and spacious building.

[Duncan]

My bro in law, who's been a member for years, found out a few years ago that Blacks didn't get the Priesthood until 1978, he didn't care. Historical matters to most people, i'd imagine, just doesn't register and people just don't care. He isn't the only person who you tell things from the past about and they don't really care about 'that stuff'. 

 

Tangentially, it seems that some people are never satisfied. They want the Church to be more open, but when the Church is they then criticize the response, they don't like the answer or the way the answer came

Edited October 25, 2014 by Duncan

[KevinG]

A friend and grad school classmate was the first black missionary in the church. He and I came to the conclusions that the church organization is just now putting into print about the priesthood ban about 20 years ago. he was "over it" even then, and knew the church would get around to finding its voice on the matter eventually. The funny thing is he's the author of a lot of official materials on the subject and wishes he could be known for his other scholarship. He is tired of explaining.

Many of the diverse statements made on the 1978 revelation negating any teaching that went before were available and in print if you had access to the databases of old talks and CES fire sides. But those are also just now getting to the web in the last decade. Not hidden just behind the scriptures and ensigns in the rush to digitize everything. The new face of LDS.com may have more to do,with the limitations of our correlation and publication process than any political decision. But the bottom line is we don't know. If we think we're the cause of it were arrogant. If antis think they are the cause of it they are equally arrogant.

I like what is happening now, but I jist can't see the difficulty of getting sources in the past that much of a conspiracy, or that much of an issue. kids who grew up with Wikipedia have no clue what effort a research paper took when you had to use a card catalogue, Article indexes and microfiche.

Edited October 25, 2014 by KevinG

[Buzzard]

Newb, I think what we are seeing is that the enemies of the church are only interested in it's destruction, essay or no essay.

[JLHPROF]

I've been teaching the ugly/beautiful truth to my kids for decades. Even the 14 year old responded to this news with. We knew that did nt we?

 

That's the way it should be.  People leave when they are shocked and not able to come to terms with things.  It only makes sense to have guides for adults as we do for our children.

[KevinG]

That's the way it should be.  People leave when they are shocked and not able to come to terms with things.  It only makes sense to have guides for adults as we do for our children.

My kids hear a lot from they probably shouldn't! But they will never be surprised from lack of information.

Besides, its fun too hear, "eew Dad!" at the dinner table.

[Tacenda]

That's the way it should be. People leave when they are shocked and not able to come to terms with things. It only makes sense to have guides for adults as we do for our children.

This is where my bishop and SP dropped the ball and where MDDB picked it up again. I thank them for knowing the history and for giving me the tough love that I needed.

I don't think the essays will do that much harm, I think the SSM thing is doing a number though.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Tacenda

[Hamba Tuhan]

Historical matters to most people, i'd imagine, just doesn't register and people just don't care.

 

I'm a professional historian, and I've never been able to grasp why someone would attempt to determine the reality of anything in the present by turning to the past. The Restored Gospel is in our midst. Those who live it know its origins.

[ERayR]

This is where my bishop and SP dropped the ball and where MDDB picked it up again. I thank them for knowing the history and for giving me the tough love that I needed.

I don't think the essays will do that much harm, I think the SSM thing is doing a number though.

 

The minions of the great and spacious building are beating pretty hard on that drum but then again the Churches job is to preach the gospel it is ours to see which choices we will make.

[Silhouette]

I guess I'm out of the loop. I haven't seen these essays.

[Calm]

My kids hear a lot from they probably shouldn't! But they will never be surprised from lack of information.

Besides, its fun too hear, "eew Dad!" at the dinner table.

You too?  My evil side comes out with my kids.  Too bad they are too old to do this to any more.

[Calm]

I guess I'm out of the loop. I haven't seen these essays.

Let me be the one then…take a deep breathe if you aren't that familiar with the subject and give yourself time to absorb it.

 

Main article, check out the links to get more detail about different time periods.

 

https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-the-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints?lang=eng

 

Feel free to ask for clarification if you need it.  

 

Other new topics can be found in links here.  You should also watch the three introductory videos to understand what the purpose of the Gospel Topics section is going to be and why they are doing this:

 

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_history/Gospel_Topics_essays

Edited October 25, 2014 by calmoriah

[Silhouette]

Thanks very much for the links. Unfortunately these sites aren't mobile-friendly, and my phone is all I have to get online anymore. I can't read anything on these sites because the text is just too tiny. When I try to adjust the text on my phone it doesn't work for some reason. Very frustrating. I just don't have access to a computer anymore.

[Avatar4321]

Some people are never satisfied. Some people will get upset no matter what the church foes because they don't care about the church.

my faith isn't dependent on history or science or who people married a hundred years ago. My faith is dependent on the testimony of the Holy Spirit. He has told me that the Church is true, that Joseph was a prophet, and that Jesus is my savior. He is the one who speaks to me as our general authorities speak and confirms what they teach ie true.

what is out there that should counter that? That's why I'm a member and why I plan to do my best at listening to the Lord no matter what anyone might say about the church on a blog.

[Garden Girl]

Thanks very much for the links. Unfortunately these sites aren't mobile-friendly, and my phone is all I have to get online anymore. I can't read anything on these sites because the text is just too tiny. When I try to adjust the text on my phone it doesn't work for some reason. Very frustrating. I just don't have access to a computer anymore.

 

Hello Silhouette...

My printer is on the blink, so when I need to either type something I need to print, or just download something, I go to my local library which has a row of at least 15 computers available for public use... one hour time limit...

 

GG

[Nevo]

I'm starting to think that once a saint starts down this rabbit hole, they are much more likely to end up with one of their feet on a keychain than in the Celestial Kingdom.  As we all learned from the 80s classic movie, War Games, Ally Sheedy was kinda cute in the right lighting.  We also learned that "the only winning move is not to play."  I think this latter(-day) advice might not just apply to nuclear war, but also, the Church playing the apologetics game.

 

I don't think the Church has a winning move here. The details of Joseph Smith's practice of polygamy are not for the faint of heart but what can the Church really do? It would be nice if none of it had happened, but it's part of our history and it isn't going away. The responsible thing to do is to face it, try to make some sense out of it, and move forward. It will likely create a lot more troubled, conflicted believers (and ex-believers) but dealing with difficulties and contradictions is part of growing up. 

[Silhouette]

Hello Silhouette...

My printer is on the blink, so when I need to either type something I need to print, or just download something, I go to my local library which has a row of at least 15 computers available for public use... one hour time limit...

GG

I hadn't thought about that. I'll check out our library to see if they have computers like that for public use. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Calm]

Worse come to worse we could put it up here.