Is The Only Way To Win Not To Play?

[Nevo]

There was no abuse, coercion, rape, corruption, or any other such sins in the system of polygamy.

I wish this were true.

[JLHPROF]

I wish this were true.

 

It is.  It was not part of the system.  It may have been part of the way some participants acted, but the same thing applies to monogamy.  Every sin piled on the head of polygamy is amply found in monogamy.  Polygamy is no more inherently abusive, coercive or corrupt than any other form of marriage.

[WysteriaBlue]

Rape is a type of sexual assault usually involving sexual intercourse or other forms of sexual penetration initiated against one or more individuals without the consent of those individuals. The act may be carried out by physical force, coercion, abuse of authority or against a person who is incapable of valid consent, such as one who is unconscious, incapacitated, or below the legal age of consent.  The term rape is sometimes used interchangeably with the term sexual assault.

 

• Many of the stories of Joseph Smith’s wives said that their parents, husbands or themselves were coerced into polygamy and that they felt they had no choice in light of keeping eternal life as an option for themselves or their loved ones.  As a mayor and Leader and High Priest of the church, coercion did not even have to be explicit especially in times that women were mere properties of their husbands anyway and had no choices or options available to them… they were indeed a product of their times.  But, all the more reason for leaders of a religion to be unscrupulous in their own moral chastity.

 

• In regards to your statement that Fanny “knew full well this was a marriage (of some sort)” then why was she remarried within a few months of her family’s moving to another state to another man in the faith.  If her marriage was “such an honorable estate to all” why then  would she need to be married again?  Would this not end up being polyandry?  What if Joseph’s baby had been born and raised?

 

• As to Emma’s not being able to “tolerate” multiple wives and the blatant either marriage or adultery of Joseph Smith….as soon as she learned of it she kicked Fanny out of the house and ordered her back to her family home.  But, I thought everyone honoured Emma Smith’s fortitude, strength, wisdom and faith?  On the one hand you call them strong and wise, yet on the other hand, again you blame those that are lied to.  Call it “victim thinking”.  I call that hypocrisy.

 

• You say many that are not honourable or full of integrity cannot “tolerate” other disciplines or acts of faith as commanded.  Many are weak…many are proud.  Many can also pray for wisdom and have faith that something is against their conscience as well.  That does not make them weak, it mean they have integrity and act and follow their conscience.  I call that courage.  You say that most of these women stood up repeatedly to stand behind their husbands or Joseph Smith.  Why wouldn’t they?  They had no real choices?  What did you think they would do?  Women were owned and governed by their fathers and husbands.  They later were told that they were under threat of losing their immortal souls and being killed by God if they did not uphold the laws of plural marriage. D&C 132:64-65.

 

When cross-examined during the Reed Smoot hearings, church president Joseph F. Smith gave the official church position on the necessity of a wife's consent to polygamy:

 

President Smith: The condition is that if she does not consent the Lord will destroy her, but I do not know how he will do it.
Question: Is it not true that ... if she refuses her consent her husband is exempt from the law which requires her consent.
President Smith: Yes; he is exempt from the law which requires her consent. She is commanded to consent, but if she does not, then he is exempt from the requirement.
Question: Then he is at liberty to proceed without her consent, under the law. In other words, her consent amounts to nothing?
President Smith: It amounts to nothing but her consent.

 

 

I’m so very sorry that you judge me or my thinking and wisdom as “anti-Mormon”.  I am not.  I see the wisdom and power of Joseph Smith as a prophet and leader. 

I can also see weaknesses in man / natural man. 

I do NOT see Joseph Smith as God, Jesus or the Holy Ghost. 

He did not lead a perfect life and being honest about that is neither heretical or “anti” anything.

 

Lying, lust, greed, and adultery are sins and transgressions are they not?

As High Priests, are you not committed to living the commandments and upholding the Church and your covenants with God? 

 

Calling me a names and obfuscating the facts and “white washing” history are just forms of lying.  If someone objects to the lies does not mean they object to the Church’s teaching or are not good people.  I may have a perspective that you do not agree with, but it is not poor.  I’d say my eyes and mind are wide open.  I can see the value of the man, the value of the Church and its scriptures and doctrines and still see the fallibility of a man.

[JLHPROF]

Calling me a names and obfuscating the facts and “white washing” history are just forms of lying.  If someone objects to the lies does not mean they object to the Church’s teaching or are not good people.  I may have a perspective that you do not agree with, but it is not poor.  I’d say my eyes and mind are wide open.  I can see the value of the man, the value of the Church and its scriptures and doctrines and still see the fallibility of a man.

 

I apologize if I called you names.  But I don't believe for one second that Joseph's flaws (which he did have) were the ones you portray.  I do not agree with your perspective of Joseph or of polygamy.  I believe he was the most perfect man to walk the earth save Jesus only.  In other words, he was the most Christlike other than Christ.

I do not obfuscate facts or white wash history.  History is now and has always been subject to interpretation.  I interpret Joseph's actions and motivations very differently than you do.  I interpret the practice of Plural Marriage differently than you do.

 

And I will NEVER sit by and allow the character and name of Joseph to be spoken in the same breath with the term rape.  It is false, it is wrong, and in my opinion it 100% violates temple covenants.

 

I have a testimony, not just of Joseph's work in the restoration, but of Joseph the man, Joseph the prophet, and Joseph the example.  And I will always defend his reputation against half-truths and twisted facts.

[Calm]

are well calculated, well-thought out and are not meant in any way to judge, nor condemn the past people.

Then they don't need to worry imo, but sometimes people fool themselves that they are neither judging or condemning and they really are or convince themselves they are thinking things out reasonably and they aren't…and I include all positions in this.  I think it is good to use others' reactions a reality checks on not only how we are coming across but about things we might be uncomfortable to admit to ourselves.

[WysteriaBlue]

I hear you JLPROF and in no way mean to tread on your testimony or your Covenants with God.

I am sorry that we even disagree, but I guess we do.

I respect and admire those that have sacrificed and gone before and know that they faced challenges that I do not.  I also know that I face challenges that they did not.

I have a different perspective than you, plain and simple.  You have not walked in my shoes nor I in yours.  I'm just grateful that Jesus did.

I hope we can all at least learn from their sacrifice and all the teachings in our scriptures and doctrines and parables and through the gifts that God has given us.

 

Respectfully,

wb

[canard78]

Probably not...

But he is the head and presiding authority over this last dispensation, and will sit in judgement on every man, woman, and child who lived in this age.

Who are we to presume to judge Joseph? He answers only to God and Jesus Christ.

What nonsense. Can you provide a credible source to support the idea that Joseph will sit in judgement over us?

[JLHPROF]

What nonsense. Can you provide a credible source to support the idea that Joseph will sit in judgement over us?

 

Of course.  It is the same doctrine as when Christ told his twelve apostles they would judge Israel (Matthew 19:28) and the twelve Nephite Apostles they would judge the Nephites.  Our priesthood leadership will all sit in judgement of us one day, and we will work up the chain to Christ himself. 

But this dispensation doesn't get to Christ without going through Joseph Smith:

 

1. BRIGHAM YOUNG AND ROBERT L. MILLETT (in the Ensign)

Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the veil in the great work of the last days. I can tell our beloved brother Christians who have slain the Prophets and butchered and otherwise caused the death of thousands of Latter-day Saints, the priests who have thanked God in their prayers and thanksgiving from the pulpit that we have been plundered, driven, and slain, and the deacons under the pulpit, and their brethren and sisters in their closets, who have thanked God, thinking that the Latter-day Saints were wasted away, something that no doubt will mortify them—something that, to say the least, is a matter of deep regret to them—namely, that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation—the keys to rule in the spirit world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ, which gives him a most perfect victory in the spirit world. He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim—“Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!” But it is true.  (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourse 7:282 - Also taught/quoted in the Ensign - https://www.lds.org/...ophets?lang=eng)

 

 

NUMBER 2 - BRIGHAM YOUNG

"How are you going to get your resurrection? You will get it by the President of the resurrection pertaining to this generation, and that is Joseph Smith Jun. Hear it all ye ends of the earth; if ever you enter into the kingdom of God it is because Joseph Smith let you go there. This will apply to Jews and Gentiles, to the bond, and the free; to friends and foes; no man or woman in this generation will get a resurrection and be crowned, without Joseph Smith saying so. The man who was martyred in Carthage Jail, State of Illinois, holds the keys of life and death to this generation. He is the President of the resurrection in this dispensation." Brigham Young - Essential Brigham Young pg 99 Oct 8, 1854

 

NUMBER 3  PARLEY P. PRATT

"I bear this testimony this day, that Joseph Smith was and is a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator—an Apostle holding the keys of this last dispensation and of the kingdom of God, under Peter, James, and John. And not only that he was a Prophet and Apostle of Jesus Christ, and lived and died one, but that he now lives in the spirit world, and holds those same keys to usward and to this whole generation. Also that he will hold those keys to all eternity; and no power in heaven or on the earth will ever take them from him; for he will continue holding those keys through all eternity, and will stand—yes, again in the flesh upon this earth, as the head of the Latter-day Saints under Jesus Christ, and under Peter, James, and John. He will hold the keys to judge the generation to whom he was sent, and will judge my brethren that preside over me; and will judge me, together with the Apostles ordained by the word of the Lord through him and under his administration.

When this is done, those Apostles will judge this generation and the Latter-day Saints; and they will judge them with that judgment which Jesus Christ will give unto them; and they will have the same spirit and the same mind as Jesus Christ, and their judgment will be his judgment, for they will be one.

...We will be judged by brother Joseph; and he will be judged by Peter, James, and John, and their associates. Brother Brigham, who now presides over us, will hold the keys under brother Joseph; and he and his brethren, who hold the keys with him, or under his direction, will judge the people; for they will hold those keys to all eternity, worlds without end. By those keys they will have to judge this generation; and Peter, James, and John, will hold the keys to preside over, and judge, and direct brother Joseph to all eternity; and Jesus Christ will hold the keys over them and over us, under his Father, to whom be all the glory."  - Parley P. Pratt JOD 5:195-96

 

NUMBER 4 - GEORGE Q. CANNON

"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]" Apostle George Q. Cannon, as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142

 

NUMBER 5 - ORSON HYDE

"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, "Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;" if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression–if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again." Orson Hyde, JOD 6:154-5

Edited October 28, 2014 by JLHPROF

[WysteriaBlue]

You might also consider these Scriptural references in regards to this issue:

 

Nehi 2:26-28

26 And the ^aMessiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may ^bredeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are ^credeemed from the fall they have become ^dfree forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the ^elaw at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.

 27 Wherefore, men are ^afree according to the ^bflesh; and ^call things are ^dgiven them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to ^echoose ^fliberty and eternal ^glife, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be ^hmiserable like unto himself.

 28 And now, my sons, I would that ye should look to the great ^aMediator, and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit;

 

Matthew 16:27-28

27 For the ^aSon of man shall come in the ^bglory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall ^creward every man according to his ^dworks.

 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of ^adeath, till they see the Son of man coming in his ^bkingdom.

 

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

16 For the Lord himself shall ^adescend from heaven with ^ba shout, with the voice of the ^carchangel, and with the ^dtrump of God: and the dead in Christ shall ^erise first:

 17 ^aThen we which are alive and remain shall be ^bcaught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the ^cLord in the ^dair: and so shall we ^eever be with the ^fLord.

 

Job 19:

25 For I ^aknow that my ^bredeemer liveth, and that ^che shall ^dstand at the latter day upon the earth:

 26 And though after my skin worms destroy this ^abody, yet in my ^bflesh shall I ^csee God:

 

3 Nephi 27:

 13 Behold I have given unto you my ^agospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the ^bwill of my Father, because my Father sent me.

 14 And my Father sent me that I might be ^alifted up upon the ^bcross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the ^ccross, that I might ^ddraw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be ^ejudged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—

 15 And for this cause have I been ^alifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their ^bworks.

 16 And it shall come to pass, that whoso ^arepenteth and is baptized in my ^bname shall be filled; and if he ^cendureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.

 17 And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the ^ajustice of the Father.

[canard78]

Of course. It is the same doctrine as when Christ told his twelve apostles they would judge Israel (Matthew 19:28) and the twelve Nephite Apostles they would judge the Nephites. Our priesthood leadership will all sit in judgement of us one day, and we will work up the chain to Christ himself.

But this dispensation doesn't get to Christ without going through Joseph Smith:

1. BRIGHAM YOUNG AND ROBERT L. MILLETT (in the Ensign)

Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the veil in the great work of the last days. I can tell our beloved brother Christians who have slain the Prophets and butchered and otherwise caused the death of thousands of Latter-day Saints, the priests who have thanked God in their prayers and thanksgiving from the pulpit that we have been plundered, driven, and slain, and the deacons under the pulpit, and their brethren and sisters in their closets, who have thanked God, thinking that the Latter-day Saints were wasted away, something that no doubt will mortify them—something that, to say the least, is a matter of deep regret to them—namely, that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation—the keys to rule in the spirit world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ, which gives him a most perfect victory in the spirit world. He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim—“Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!” But it is true. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourse 7:282 - Also taught/quoted in the Ensign - https://www.lds.org/...ophets?lang=eng)

NUMBER 2 - BRIGHAM YOUNG

"How are you going to get your resurrection? You will get it by the President of the resurrection pertaining to this generation, and that is Joseph Smith Jun. Hear it all ye ends of the earth; if ever you enter into the kingdom of God it is because Joseph Smith let you go there. This will apply to Jews and Gentiles, to the bond, and the free; to friends and foes; no man or woman in this generation will get a resurrection and be crowned, without Joseph Smith saying so. The man who was martyred in Carthage Jail, State of Illinois, holds the keys of life and death to this generation. He is the President of the resurrection in this dispensation." Brigham Young - Essential Brigham Young pg 99 Oct 8, 1854

NUMBER 3 PARLEY P. PRATT

"I bear this testimony this day, that Joseph Smith was and is a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator—an Apostle holding the keys of this last dispensation and of the kingdom of God, under Peter, James, and John. And not only that he was a Prophet and Apostle of Jesus Christ, and lived and died one, but that he now lives in the spirit world, and holds those same keys to usward and to this whole generation. Also that he will hold those keys to all eternity; and no power in heaven or on the earth will ever take them from him; for he will continue holding those keys through all eternity, and will stand—yes, again in the flesh upon this earth, as the head of the Latter-day Saints under Jesus Christ, and under Peter, James, and John. He will hold the keys to judge the generation to whom he was sent, and will judge my brethren that preside over me; and will judge me, together with the Apostles ordained by the word of the Lord through him and under his administration.

When this is done, those Apostles will judge this generation and the Latter-day Saints; and they will judge them with that judgment which Jesus Christ will give unto them; and they will have the same spirit and the same mind as Jesus Christ, and their judgment will be his judgment, for they will be one.

...We will be judged by brother Joseph; and he will be judged by Peter, James, and John, and their associates. Brother Brigham, who now presides over us, will hold the keys under brother Joseph; and he and his brethren, who hold the keys with him, or under his direction, will judge the people; for they will hold those keys to all eternity, worlds without end. By those keys they will have to judge this generation; and Peter, James, and John, will hold the keys to preside over, and judge, and direct brother Joseph to all eternity; and Jesus Christ will hold the keys over them and over us, under his Father, to whom be all the glory." - Parley P. Pratt JOD 5:195-96

NUMBER 4 - GEORGE Q. CANNON

"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]" Apostle George Q. Cannon, as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142

NUMBER 5 - ORSON HYDE

"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, "Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;" if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression–if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again." Orson Hyde, JOD 6:154-5

I'm impressed. I expected several 19thC quotes from the JoD but kudos to you for finding a quote on LDS.org (even if it's a quote of BY).

I don't think this is considered a current doctrine of the church and surprised someone managed to get it passed the Ensign editors back in the 90s. In our era of (what looks to me like) mainstreaming I would imagine this is another of the outdated ideas that church leaders seem happy to forget about.

I certainly don't consider it to be a current doctrine of the church.

[JLHPROF]

I'm impressed. I expected several 19thC quotes from the JoD but kudos to you for finding a quote on LDS.org (even if it's a quote of BY).

I don't think this is considered a current doctrine of the church and surprised someone managed to get it passed the Ensign editors back in the 90s. In our era of (what looks to me like) mainstreaming I would imagine this is another of the outdated ideas that church leaders seem happy to forget about.

I certainly don't consider it to be a current doctrine of the church.

 

Doesn't make it any less true.  "Official" doesn't mean much in my books, especially if the only reason it changed was due to "mainstreaming".

 

The principle behind it is definitely still current doctrine.  Look at the temple recommend.  In order to achieve that goal you need to get approval from your Bishop, then you need your Stake President to sign off on it.  Then there are blessings that require a temple recommend AND the approval of an Apostle.

Same principle.  You don't get to call up straight to President Monson.  There's a principle there.

Christ says "no man cometh to the Father except by me".  Part of the temple endowment is about how to walk past some sentinels to Christ.  You need your priesthood heads approval to enter the temple and approach the veil between you and Christ.

 

Anyone who thinks that judgement involves going straight to Christ for the one and only final decision on everything is in for a shock.

Edited October 29, 2014 by JLHPROF

[mormonnewb]

Doesn't make it any less true.  "Official" doesn't mean much in my books, especially if the only reason it changed was due to "mainstreaming".

 

The principle behind it is definitely still current doctrine.  Look at the temple recommend.  In order to achieve that goal you need to get approval from your Bishop, then you need your Stake President to sign off on it.  Then there are blessings that require a temple recommend AND the approval of an Apostle.

Same principle.  You don't get to call up straight to President Monson.  There's a principle there.

Christ says "no man cometh to the Father except by me".  Part of the temple endowment is about how to walk past some sentinels to Christ.  You need your priesthood heads approval to enter the temple and approach the veil between you and Christ.

 

Anyone who thinks that judgement involves going straight to Christ for the one and only final decision on everything is in for a shock.

 

Well, if you are correct, then it seems like Heaven isn't going to be a lot of fun for Brother Joseph.  I can think of few things less blissful than being God's bouncer for all of eternity. "Sorry, sir, I don't see your name on the guest list.  You say you know Peter?"

 

That being said, I can see why you hold the Mary Poppins view of JS (practically perfect in every way).  If God is going to assign someone the task of deciding which of His children get to spend eternity with Him, then He would want someone as close to perfect as possible.

 

And please forgive my irreverent tone, but I find this view almost as disconcerting as our Church currently does (at least, given the fact that no apostle has seemed to repeat the teaching in more than a century ... judging from the quotes you listed above).  But I know (and respect) the fact that you subscribe to "old school" Mormonism and coming from that perspective, your conclusions about JS are in line with that belief system.

[Stargazer]

Doesn't make it any less true.  "Official" doesn't mean much in my books, especially if the only reason it changed was due to "mainstreaming".

 

The principle behind it is definitely still current doctrine.  Look at the temple recommend.  In order to achieve that goal you need to get approval from your Bishop, then you need your Stake President to sign off on it.  Then there are blessings that require a temple recommend AND the approval of an Apostle.

Same principle.  You don't get to call up straight to President Monson.  There's a principle there.

Christ says "no man cometh to the Father except by me".  Part of the temple endowment is about how to walk past some sentinels to Christ.  You need your priesthood heads approval to enter the temple and approach the veil between you and Christ.

 

Anyone who thinks that judgement involves going straight to Christ for the one and only final decision on everything is in for a shock.

Thankyou for all that you have posted in this thread. I wish I could give you more rep points for them.

I hope that those who cannot see this matter as you have shown it will eventually put down the lens of man's blindness, and listen to what the Spirit of the Lord tells them.

[Stargazer]

Well, if you are correct, then it seems like Heaven isn't going to be a lot of fun for Brother Joseph.  I can think of few things less blissful than being God's bouncer for all of eternity. "Sorry, sir, I don't see your name on the guest list.  You say you know Peter?"

 

That being said, I can see why you hold the Mary Poppins view of JS (practically perfect in every way).  If God is going to assign someone the task of deciding which of His children get to spend eternity with Him, then He would want someone as close to perfect as possible.

 

And please forgive my irreverent tone, but I find this view almost as disconcerting as our Church currently does (at least, given the fact that no apostle has seemed to repeat the teaching in more than a century ... judging from the quotes you listed above).  But I know (and respect) the fact that you subscribe to "old school" Mormonism and coming from that perspective, your conclusions about JS are in line with that belief system.

Matthew 19:28:

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

"old school" Christianity, then?  We have a more sure word of man's doctrine now, right?

[mormonnewb]

Matthew 19:28:And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

"old school" Christianity, then?  We have a more sure word of man's doctrine now, right?

Okay, good one. But is JS the only one "which have followed me"? Wasn't Christ talking to the original apostles? How do we get from them to JS?

[Nevo]

Well, if Judas can be a judge, I guess Joseph can too

 

Ultimately, final judgment belongs to Christ: "And the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there" (2 Nephi 9:41).

[teddyaware]

Okay, good one. But is JS the only one "which have followed me"? Wasn't Christ talking to the original apostles? How do we get from them to JS?

 

Perhaps because you're a newbie you don't remember Peter, James and John conferred the Melchizedek priesthood upon Joseph Smith -- the same priesthood that empowered them and the other Apostles to judge the tribes of Israel. Peter is the preeminent priesthood leader (under Christ) of the Gospel Dispensation of the Meridian of Time; Joseph Smith is the priesthood head of the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. These are basic Gospel principles.

Edited October 29, 2014 by teddyaware

[JLHPROF]

Well, if you are correct, then it seems like Heaven isn't going to be a lot of fun for Brother Joseph.  I can think of few things less blissful than being God's bouncer for all of eternity. "Sorry, sir, I don't see your name on the guest list.  You say you know Peter?"

 

 

At the end of the Millennium the final judgement of all who dwelled on this earth will be complete.  There will be no more new dead to be vetted.  I think Joseph will get to move on to bigger and better things.

 

Okay, good one. But is JS the only one "which have followed me"? Wasn't Christ talking to the original apostles? How do we get from them to JS?

 

You're missing the principle behind this again.  EVERYONE is judged by their priesthood heads, one by one.  For our dispensation that starts and ends with Joseph Smith.

There will never be a time when there isn't a priesthood head above you or a time if you are worthy when there aren't priesthood holders below you.    The 70 answer to the Apostles, the Apostles answer to the prophet, the prophet answer to both Christ and his priesthood head (the man who annointed and appointed him to the position).  The pattern is eternal - even God was appointed head of this creation by the council of the Gods.

For those who have been through the temple the principle of returning and reporting to our priesthood heads for our actions here should be very familiar.

[canard78]

Doesn't make it any less true. "Official" doesn't mean much in my books, especially if the only reason it changed was due to "mainstreaming".

The principle behind it is definitely still current doctrine. Look at the temple recommend. In order to achieve that goal you need to get approval from your Bishop, then you need your Stake President to sign off on it. Then there are blessings that require a temple recommend AND the approval of an Apostle.

Same principle. You don't get to call up straight to President Monson. There's a principle there.

Christ says "no man cometh to the Father except by me". Part of the temple endowment is about how to walk past some sentinels to Christ. You need your priesthood heads approval to enter the temple and approach the veil between you and Christ.

Anyone who thinks that judgement involves going straight to Christ for the one and only final decision on everything is in for a shock.

I admire your certainty. I would still suggest that its near complete absence from any current LDS materials (your obscure quote in an Ensign article excepted) means the current church leaders do not consider it an important doctrine to emphasise.

I don't mind if you believe it. I don't.

(What is this thread even about any more??)

[Kenngo1969]

... I respect and admire those that have sacrificed and gone before and know that they faced challenges that I do not.  I also know that I face challenges that they did not. ...

 

Yeah, uh, about that whole "respect" thingie.   Disagreeing is fine.  Having a different perspective is fine.  Accusing our leaders of rape is another thing entirely.

 

And I reported you for it.

 

Just sayin'! 

[JLHPROF]

(What is this thread even about any more??)

 

Well, it was about Plural Marriage, and it got sidetracked only slightly into the character of the man who established Plural Marriage in this dispensation, and then slightly further to the very nature of Plural Marriage as a system.

 

We ended up discussing Joseph Smith's calling to judge us in direct response to people trying (inappropriately) to judge him.  We don't get to judge those who sit in authority over us.  We don't get to speak ill of the Lord's anointed and liken their actions to rape, even if we think Plural Marriage is a terrible trial to go through.

[WysteriaBlue]

No, no judging allowed. No questions asked...

No discussion or presumptions or assumptions will be tolerated.

Nope...not allowed nor speaking ill of anyone with authority..

No voices will be heard except your own.

Condemnation, damnation and intolerance heard quite clearly.

 

Respectful or not, right or wrong, other voices will be silenced for all eternity.

Agency and freedoms revoked.

History repeated.

 

Message received loud and clear,

[JLHPROF]

No, no judging allowed. No questions asked...

No discussion or presumptions or assumptions will be tolerated.

Nope...not allowed nor speaking ill of anyone with authority..

No voices will be heard except your own.

Condemnation, damnation and intolerance heard quite clearly.

 

Respectful or not, right or wrong, other voices will be silenced for all eternity.

Agency and freedoms revoked.

History repeated.

 

Message received loud and clear,

 

That's a little bit of an overreaction.  We have our agency to judge.  We can always ask questions.  Any endowed member is under covenant before God not to speak ill of the Lords anointed.

Nobody is condemning or damning anyone, but we are not obligated to tolerate or accept opinions we find offensive without responding to them.

 

You have your agency.  Say what you will.  But agency never was free.  There will always be a response to any action or opinion.  Goodness knows I've had my head bitten off many times here.  You have every right to believe and express your belief however you see fit.  Nobody is stopping that.

But you bet when it comes to Joseph Smith I disagree loudly.

[Calm]

She is not endowed or even a member. She is violating no covenant.

[JLHPROF]

She is not endowed or even a member. She is violating no covenant.

 

Oh, fair enough.  I thought she was a member based on the amount of Church history she'd read.  Regardless  I still consider myself accountable to defend God's prophets against false claims, no matter who makes them.

 

I sincerely apologize Wysteria for my misunderstanding and harsh words.  However, I can never apologize for defending the character of Joseph against things that just aren't true.

Edited October 29, 2014 by JLHPROF